Develop Bugs

SPB Clone - Nag Screen Removal

SPB Clone is a fine bit of software. It makes a full ghost copy of your BA that you can reinstall after a hard reset - all the registry settings, installed software. etc.
The demo version is fully working but after installing via a clone you get a nag screen that continually pops up to remind you to buy the software.
Because I was so impressed with SPB Clone, I wrote to SPB to ask them if they could provide me with a single user licence at a less painful price, since the PDA I was cloning was actually my phone, and I'm not a big company with many PDAs. They told me that, sadly, SPB Clone was only available on an enterprise licence but then they told me how to remove the nag screen....
1. Open the folder \Windows\StartUp in File Explorer.
2. Tap and Hold and select View All Files.
3. Select bootupdt.exe and select Cut from context menu.
4. Change to the root folder "\" and tap and hold on the empty space within folder view. Select Paste from context menu.
5. Soft reset.
6. Remove bootupdt.exe from the root folder.

And you were not able to find this out yourself?
Last year when I had my tires changed the clerk put a sign on my inner mirror to come back in 50km. And there was of course an ad on the sticker. Your post is like "Hey, today I opened my car and pulled the sticker of the mirror. You won't believe: I've got clear sight again!"

Nice of you to repay their generosity by putting this information in the public domain...

@tintoy: Generosity? I consider this being spam. Nobody wants new posts about "I now know how to reboot!" or "My how-to: Plugging USB cable in". I would accept those kinda posts if he'd just tell about product X, which is cheaper than Y but has same or more features like A, B, C. Only hassle you have to solve is to remove [filename] from autostart.

Chatty said:
And you were not able to find this out yourself?
Last year when I had my tires changed the clerk put a sign on my inner mirror to come back in 50km. And there was of course an ad on the sticker. Your post is like "Hey, today I opened my car and pulled the sticker of the mirror. You won't believe: I've got clear sight again!"
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Oh, well I'm terribly sorry that my lo-tech post offends your obviously tender, high-brow sensibilities.
God help you if someone with less knowledge than you asks you a question face-to-face; I'd imagine they'd deck you with an attitude like yours.
Try and remember that there are, in fact, some people that don't know as much about a subject as you and that, to them, as it was to me, a tip like this is very useful, although it's obviously far, far beneath someone who is clearly an IT deity. Please allow me to prostrate myself before you - in fact, I'm genuflecting before my monitor even now!
Mind you; your grammar, spelling and punctuation aren't up to much. If you're going to slight someone on a written forum, at least make sure you can write, eh?

tintoy said:
Nice of you to repay their generosity by putting this information in the public domain...
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I'm a firm believer in freedom of information.
SPB gave me this information because I am a single user.
I have provided this information to other single users.
If an unscrupulous company wishes to use unlicensed software, possibly risking prosecution, that's their remit, not mine.

madcapmagician said:
Oh, well I'm terribly sorry that my lo-tech post offends your obviously tender, high-brow sensibilities.
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Ok, your're starting to get insulting. That's why I'll answer the last time to this thread.
madcapmagician said:
God help you if someone with less knowledge than you asks you a question face-to-face; I'd imagine they'd deck you with an attitude like yours.
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This is not comparable because this is a forum, not a chat. Most questions can be answered by just searching the forum. And I was not against your post in whole but about the way you described it.
madcapmagician said:
Try and remember that there are, in fact, some people that don't know as much about a subject as you and that, to them, as it was to me, a tip like this is very useful, although it's obviously far, far beneath someone who is clearly an IT deity. Please allow me to prostrate myself before you - in fact, I'm genuflecting before my monitor even now!
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Farcical. No comment.
madcapmagician said:
Mind you; your grammar, spelling and punctuation aren't up to much. If you're going to slight someone on a written forum, at least make sure you can write, eh?
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Here you stepped over the line. If you ain't got no further arguments (if there has been at least one already) you start to insult people. That will make you look respectable, indeed. Although English is not my mother tongue I do speak more than one language. How many do you speak? (Not that I'm really interested.)

Chatty said:
Ok, your're starting to get insulting.
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Your original post was both rude and insulting, hence my reply.
This is not comparable because this is a forum, not a chat.
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How so? Do you not bring your manners to a forum? You are, in effect, saying that because you cannot see your fellow forumers face-to-face you feel you do not have to be polite to them.....and you then get upset when they are impolite back to you.
Most questions can be answered by just searching the forum.
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Why do you assume I didn't? Again, you are being insulting. I scoured the web to find the answer, like most other noobs would do. From the way you wrote, I got the impression you are very IT-literate - well, I am not and there are many others like me. My post is for them.
And I was not against your post in whole but about the way you described it.
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Then I suggest you re-read your first post: in your head, when you typed it, it may have sounded witty and polite and to-the-point; that is not how it came across. If you felt my description was at fault, you should have said so, rather than making rude, tangential comments.
madcapmagician said:
Try and remember that there are, in fact, some people that don't know as much about a subject as you and that, to them, as it was to me, a tip like this is very useful
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Just to reiterate the point.
Here you stepped over the line.
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Agreed, although in my head, when I typed it, it was quid pro quo.
I will publicly apologise here and now for being rude.
Please understand that there is nothing berating in this post - I am merely trying to articulate myself without you being able to physically hear my voice.

madcapmagician said:
Hey guys, I know a way that you can get the hard work of dozens of developers for free. Heck they gave it to me, and so it is implied that they want me to share it with the entire internet. Aren't I morally and ethically bankrupt?
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Yes, you are.
Chatty said:
There is this tire change sticker in my car that is driving me batty
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Hmmm, interesting
tintoy said:
Nice of you to repay their generosity by putting this information in the public domain...
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Chatty said:
Generosity? Huh...spam. X, Y, uh A, B, C, Marco, polo
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Exsqueezeme
madcapmagician said:
Everyone marvel at my use of polysyllabic word play. I am the master of the keyboard. Chatty, my swing thing is bigger than yours.
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madcapmagician again said:
I am a firm believer in freedom of unscrupulousness. It was granted to us in the 18th ammendment to the Constitution. SPB gave me the information because I am single minded and they have no desire to make money. They are actually just out to provide a community service.
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Wow, excellent points, all of them!
Chatty Cathy said:
Actually my swing thing is bigger. And I speak multiple languages, just not very well. A donde esta la casa de pepe?
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Stunning!
madcapmagician said:
Why are you rude to me just because I was rude to you? Don't you understand the consequences of disturbing the molecular dismobilization of the antisymmetric wave function? Egad man. Let me cut loose some more words from my Microsoft Word thesaurus...prostrate, genuflecting, forumers (huh?), tangential, exoskeletal, plebiscite. Take that!
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Do you guys know how tired the rest of us are of this kind of non-productive grade school banter? I am waiting for the "your momma" insults to start any minute. Can someone please delete this thread.

The original post in this thread was a useful piece of information on how to remove the nag screen on a piece of software.
It was not a "How-to" on rebooting or plugging in a USB cable, and i am sure that anyone who wants to use the SPB Clone would be grateful for this information.
The fact that you either didnt understand what the post was about or didnt care doesnt mean you have to immediately flame the poster, if you have no use for the information in a certain thread just move on to the next thread. Trading insults back and forth is the biggest spam anyone could expect to see in a forum, especially this one, which provides so much good information to those of us who use these devices.

I continue to be floored by people's casual attitude toward trading software keys, hacking apps, and getting around nag screens. If the developer did not want you to see the nag screen then he/she WOULD NOT HAVE PUT IT THERE. If the developer gave instructions to one user on how to remove the nag, then great...what a nice developer/company. But unless they expressly gave that person permission to post it out to potentially thousands of people then it is JUST PLAIN WRONG. There is no gray area here, folks. Most of us have to live in a grown-up world and are tired of the impacts that other people's adolescent, situational ethics imposes on us. Do unto others...

cw6447 said:
I continue to be floored by people's casual attitude toward trading software keys, hacking apps, and getting around nag screens. If the developer did not want you to see the nag screen then he/she WOULD NOT HAVE PUT IT THERE. If the developer gave instructions to one user on how to remove the nag, then great...what a nice developer/company. But unless they expressly gave that person permission to post it out to potentially thousands of people then it is JUST PLAIN WRONG. There is no gray area here, folks. Most of us have to live in a grown-up world and are tired of the impacts that other people's adolescent, situational ethics imposes on us. Do unto others...
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I agree with you on the ethics of "stealing" software, my main complaint here was the instant flaming that madcapmagician received after posting, that is not what this community is about. he was not posting a "how-to" on the process of rebooting, he was relaying the information given to him as he received it, i think that the information can be used by those who are ok with "stealing" software and those who disagree can just disregard the information. If the mods decide that the information shouldnt be here they have the power to remove it.

Forgive me for carrying on with this ridiculous and pointless conversation but is it not in fact illegal to unlock contract mobile phones? Would the cellular providers be happy for 1000's of people to remove their branding and software from devices which they have sold? If the software company had not wanted to help the individual then they would not have told him to start with. I am sure that nobody is so special that a software company would whisper information into his ear that they didn't want to be made common knowledge.
This is a tech support forum, it has helped me as well as many, many other people. If you want to start talking about wrong, immoral, illegal or any other description you may have then start looking at what other people are doing.
I appreciate this forum, and it's members. For crying out loud, stop arguing and get on with the job in hand.

Zylo, I agree with you in one regard. The post is perfectly legit insomuch as it is helpful and technically related. But only for people without a conscience. Bret, you are symptomatic of this new generation of kids with no personal accountability in life. To pretend that you can guess that a software company doesn't mind you giving away their software for free is ludicrous. madcap probably got ahold of some sales guy who thought it would be nice to do him a favor. Do you think the owners, investors or developers would have told him to feel free to post it on forums around the internet? Why not take that info and sell it for a profit on eBay? Or better yet why not just sell the software as your own? If they were giving you a free copy then they wouldn't mind you doing whatever you want with it. Right? You see, you keep blurring the lines of common decency to the point where eventually anything goes. You won't understand until someday you actually become a responsible citizen, start your own business, and put your hard-earned money and time out on the line. I bet when the leeches and thieves come after your product you will have a whole different attitude. The "right thing" to do in this case is so easy and obvious. I fear for a world where people can't make that distinction.

Sorry if what i said came across as a flaming. It was not intended as such. I'm just aware that softweare companies have many employees, from designers to developers to marketing people to managers. Of all these people the ones who seeme to have the most alturistitc (read non commercially-minded) approach always seem to be the developers. They are typically just concerned with writing good software and makng it work. If you asked a developer for a free copy of his/her software for 'testing' they'd probally give it to you without complaint! If, however, you asked them if they'd like their contract to end at the end of its term becuase you were going to make the software they wrote completly unprofitable by telling everyone how to get it for free they might be slightly less generous!

Your points have been taken on board but for the record, I work for a small, local mobile phone dealer. How much business do you think we lose from people unlocking phones, and therefore not returning to us?
I'm not saying that is right or wrong but what I am saying is that it is illegal. It is stealing from the provider and taking profits away from independant dealers. Also, how are you to know that my own business did not fail due to non-payers? You obviously open your mouth before engaging your brain. I could not recover the debts owed to my company and it resulted in the business closing. Is that not also theft?
If you want to target anyone go for the real criminals who sell ripped off software and DVD's on the Sunday markets. They are the real problem, not one guy who has made a very small post who has admitted to have lttle understanding of what he has done. I'm sure you have now all alienated him so he will never return to this site again.
Talk about a mountain out of a molehill.

Yeah. Can we consider this conversation over?
Please don't be offended by my posts @madcapmagician, I was just making a point, not trying to demonise you! I would imagine there is even a fairly decent discsussion that could be had about what consitutes ripping off software and what consitutes fair use...

I found my original e-mail and SPB’s reply:
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerzy Bulowski
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:01 pm
To: [email protected]
Subject: Clone
Dear Sir or Madam,
I recently downloaded your demo of Clone and have to say that, already, it has served me well after my phone required a hard reset the other day.
I was so impressed that I decided to purchase a copy but was absolutely horrified to see the price of $199. Whilst I can appreciate that Clone is suited to large businesses with many corporate PDAs, I am a single user - the PDA in question is actually my HTC Blue Angel mobile phone - and I was wondering whether you could sell me a single-licence version for a price more similar to what you charge for Pocket Plus?
If this is not possible could you tell me how long the annoying reminder screen will continue to pop up on my phone?
I look forward to your reply.
Regards,
Jerzy Bulowski
Hello Jerzy,
Spb Clone is enterprise product and there's not any "single user" licenses.
How to remove the nag screen in your case:
1. Open folder \Windows\StartUp in File Explorer. 2. Tap and Hold and select View All files. 3. Select bootupd.exe and select Cut from context menu. 4. Change to the root folder "\" and tap-n-hold on the empty space within folder view. Select "Paste" from context menu. 5. Soft reset. 6. Remove bootupd.exe from the root folder.
Best regards,
Alexander Shalin
Customer Support Team
Spb Software House
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.spbsoftwarehouse.com
Phone: +7 812 324 49 44
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Bret, perhaps I should point out that you can download SPB Clone for free from their website, as a demo version. Corporate customers, if they liked it, would then buy a licensed copy for $199.00 – I have “stolen” nothing.
Chris - As far as the ethics of posting said information in the public domain are concerned, my conscience is clear. This information is for single users, like myself. If an unscrupulous company wishes to make use of this information then it’s their ethics that are at fault, not mine.
Tintoy – I’m not offended. It was Chatty’s immediate, condescending, demeaning post that riled me. Zylograth said what I should have, instead of replying as I did:
The fact that you either didn’t understand what the post was about or didn’t care doesn’t mean you have to immediately flame the poster, if you have no use for the information in a certain thread just move on to the next thread.
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And that’s that!

AFAIK I think it's still open to debate whether we discuss cracking. I'm happy to talk about cracking, but not cracks.
Odeean makes a good point that cracking and reversing is part of the education of programming; if you're a commercial developer, or would be one, it's worth knowing weaknesses and pitfalls.
People shouldn't come on here and say "wantttt - crack for thai-g" etc. That's just silly and damn lazy. If you don't know how to get warez, you should be using a Motorola, not even a Nokia. But you should be rewarding programmers, or you should understand when there aren't programmers left to program because they've all gone broke. (And I'm not just talking about cash.. we don't all program for the $$)
But if you want to learn how to crack thai-g, search, ask nicely, or learn and tell. But don't distribute cracks (at least publically). There are other boards for that, and we have enough trouble keeping this board clean enough now-a-days
V

Take it like a man!
Madcap, my almost 3-year old daughter tries to make equally bad logic when I have caught her sneaking a cookie before supper. If you were in court you would be your own worst enemy. The email from spb said "How to remove the nag screen in YOUR case". Not "in your case and EVERY other person you can broadcast it to". Show me where he added, "And please feel free to share this with other single users". ONCE AGAIN, if they did not expressly permit you to give this to other people then it is just plain wrong! No, not illegal...it's the spb CSR's ignorant fault for giving it out to you. Let's say you are standing behind a guy in line at the QuickTrip. You witness the cashier ring up his order, but forget to ring up his Snickers bar. When the customer makes the cashier aware of the error, the cashier says,"Oh that's ok, just go ahead and take it." Does that then give you the right to grab a Snickers bar and put it in your pocket without paying for it? If one person got a freebie then everyone should get it, right? How long do you think QuickTrip will survive giving away it's products? It really isn't any different. Software is intangible property that should be treated as tangible. Just because you can get away with it doesn't mean you should. It is just like all of the thieves who thought downloading music they did not pay for was OK. It wasn't...still isn't...never will be.
As for your equally weak argument of, "If an unscrupulous company wishes to make use of this information then it’s their ethics that are at fault, not mine." Let's take the same QuickTrip. While you are at the counter paying for your snacks (except for the Snickers bar tucked into your pocket), you oversee another employee opening the safe behind the counter. Because of your excellent eyesight and brilliant mind, you see and remember the combination. When you get home you go out to the SafesAndVaultsDevelopers.com forums and post about the dummy at QuickTrip opening up the safe right in front of everyone. You also post the combination to the safe because "if an unscrupulous person wishes to make use of this information then it’s their ethics that are at fault, not mine." Great logic. I wish I could send you to time-out like I can my daughter.
Try this. Reply back to spb. Tell that same Customer Service Rep that you are posting this hack on all of the popular PDA sites on the internet. And copy the support group at spb, too. After they respond to you, post their letter back here. I will be waiting to see the response.
Now I know you would never have posted the above spb info on a site where you thought "unscrupulous" people could visit and get hold of it. I mean, what jerk in their right mind would do that to a company and possibly expose them to real dollar losses? So since you know everyone here is trustworthy, why don't you go ahead and post your email account password, your xda forum password, and the PIN to your ATM account on here. Throw in your momma's phone number for grins. We won't do anything bad with it.
Am I going off on you? Yes. When someone tries to make a clearly black and white argument grey, and aggressively attempts to defend that indefensible position over and again, they deserve to be called out. Take it like a man.

[Q] Implement Reputation System?

Hey guys (mostly the senior/mod/admin folks, but anyone feel free to chime in). Could XDA implement vBulletin's (I think there is an official plugin/option... I may be wrong about this though; I cannot say for sure since I am not an admin on any site that uses vBulletin, $user = phpbbWhore reputation system? If it's not built into the latest version of the code, I'm sure there is a 3rd party plugin available from VBulletin's official site (I know of at least a few of those that exist and would help if needed).
My thought behind this is that sometimes someone posts some really useful information and adding a reply that says something like "+1 thanks!" almost seems like a waste of a post to me (I really dislike "filler"/OT threads, but I still want to give the person credit). However if I was able to give a person a point (+) or if someone was just being a jerk for no reason (-), I think more people would take the time to think before they posted. Plus, since we know "post count" mean nothing in terms of someone being a helpful person or not, this would allow new users to spot trustworthy/reliable folks.
My only qualm is that I don't know if XDA as a whole is mature enough to use this kind of system responsibly, but I have faith that any real abusers could be weeded out fairly quickly. I think it would be cool to at least trial run this. Thanks for your time .

Hi DeeBG,
Yeah, it's good idea generally, thou i'd prolly advocate XDA going a step further right off the bat, and implementing a point trading system as a supplement to the donate buttons, especially for those without easy access to paypal credit.
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
Cheers.

Reputation is built into vB, looks like they opted to turn it off. Good thing, every forum I've been a part of / admin'd, it's been abused.

I7redd said:
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
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The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it? So your reputation cannot get worse, but only better.
I7redd said:
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
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It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.

Well there are really two types of systems. One is where you can give a thumbs up or thumbs down on a comment (sometimes represented by a [+] or [-] sign), and then there is the "Thanks" system, as seen on such sites as http://androidforums.com.
I agree that the first system can and sadly usually is abused (I think I saw it work well on one private torrent site I used to belong to a long time ago). There is a somewhat "pack mentality" that some users can fall into, whether someone is "outed" (falsely or not) for being an abuser of the forums or sometimes members are found "guilty by association".
I would like to see at least a "Thanks" system in place, again the folks at androidforums.com (which I'm sure at least some of you are also members at or at least have been directed to a post there before) have this successfully working within their vBulletin-powered site and would happy to help XDA admins if needed (not that I don't have faith in the XDA site owners/coders, you guys are pretty awesome yourselves =p). Of course I would be happy to lend my ~10 years of PHP/MySQL/etc experience to the process if it'd help.
I would start a public poll, but I think it's really in the interests of the site owners (also they can probably setup a more wide-spread poll than I can if they want public opinion).
Your friend in code,
DeeBG =)

I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)

Captainkrtek said:
I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)
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Yeah, that's why I think a system where you can ONLY give thanks would be cool. Again, forum admins, let me know if you need any assistance getting it up and working (it shouldn't add a performance performance hit to the backend database/system... the php code would be very light and the mysql db would maybe grow a few hundred kB since users without thanks wouldn't have any data).

Developer Bidding...
Livven said:
The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it?
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Still open to cheating using multiple accounts to "Thank" themselves here and there and everywhere.
It's perhaps harder to gain anything with requests from yourself, and gifting points to yourself, while offering up public solutions. Thou i wouldn't put it past someone to try.
It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.
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Hmm... There seems to be a growing trend on XDA towards "donation requests" or "developer bidding" in certain forums. (see Xperia x10 Froyo request topic for example).
It involves people collectively posting that they will each donate a small amount to their favorite cause. (Android on Samsung Wave being another good example)
The current running tallies of offered donations is also interesting idea, thou there is some concern that those who have offered to donate $10 or $20 dollars will actually do so once the developers have done their magic.
Again, the opaque or arbitrary nature of hidden donations is a problem here.
Without going as far as escrow payments system (for requests that could likely need time limits and a refund), a basic "pre-paid" point system should work pretty well. For instance, once a task is completed the points could then be traded back for paypal dollars, completing the "circle of trust".
Any other ideas on this?
(or is there already an active "services" marketplace here somewhere that i've perhaps overlooked?)

Apps - A Coordinated Effort?

We all know one of the biggest gripes about Windows Phone is the lack of a few key apps. I know that I frequently contact a few companies to let them know that I am looking forward to a Windows Phone version of their existing apps and I’m sure others do as well. So companies get a smattering of requests from some users here and there.
Just wondering if perhaps we focus on one or a few particular apps at a time with many people emailing, tweeting, comments on Facebook etc in a sustained way to let them see that there is actual interest from a large number of users in the Windows Phone community. Who knows, maybe if there is enough noise, some of them will rethink their stand.
Not sure if this is the right place for this, but seemed like good place to see what people think.
Thoughts?

Bad idea. Software business works by different way. No one cares about your tweets or fb posts or forum noise - it's just a children game.

I agree that it may not make a difference, however companies often do actually listen to what people are saying. If it sounds like there is a demand, some companies who have been on the fence, may well pull the trigger and make something happen.
I've had luck getting companies to do things when I ask publicly that they wouldn't do when I asked privately. So it seems like getting more people asking publicly may well help in some instances.

willp2 said:
I agree that it may not make a difference, however companies often do actually listen to what people are saying. If it sounds like there is a demand, some companies who have been on the fence, may well pull the trigger and make something happen.
I've had luck getting companies to do things when I ask publicly that they wouldn't do when I asked privately. So it seems like getting more people asking publicly may well help in some instances.
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Other than XDA, if you also post this on WPCentral forum, you will get much much much better and enthusiastic response for such requests. There is a list of app-requests somwhere in this forum too, if you wanted a place to pick apps-in-demand from.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Companies are "listening" their marketing stuff, investors and personal CEO/chairman opinions. Neither facebook posts nor tweets can change company budget, marketing strategy or development roadmap. In fact, the most companies are controlled by the intelligent and informed people, so you may be sure they already knew about WP7 platform
P.S. Let me guess: you've never worked in software industry, don't you?

Thanks for the comments on WPCentral forum, good point. More regular users over there.
sensboston - You made my point exactly. Companies are listening to marketing staff, investors and personal CEO/chairman opinions. Those people, especially the marketing types pay attention to what the outside world is saying. If they see noise about a particular topic, it gets their attention.
For instance, if that company releases a new version of an app that has big problems, they'll hear about it first from all those social sources and they will generally try to react quickly to quite down the noise.
Not that it matters or even relevant to what I'm talking about here, but I've been in the software industry for over 20 years.

willp2 said:
For instance, if that company releases a new version of an app that has big problems, they'll hear about it first from all those social sources and they will generally try to react quickly to quite down the noise.
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It's a completely different case. Yes, I agree - huge noise/rumors about critical bug in popular app/software can push (some) companies to force fix or workaround immediately (good example is a Nokia representatives, who's - I believe - are monitoring XDA forums daily)
But porting app to the different platform (especially to WP7!) is very complicated. Most primary titles are written on C++ and uses native code/API calls. "Porting" C++ code to C#/Silverlight isn't just "porting"; it's much more close to complete rewrite. Also WP7 platform support means an additional tier of Q&A and etc. and so on (if you are really worked more than 20 years in industry you can easily extend these requirements).
100 or even 1000 facebook posts and forum requests can't show you a real app demand but statistics can. Unfortunately WP7 market share currently is too small (at the end of 2011 it was about 2%).

I thought there was a similar thread already, but if not then perhaps we can do that. I heard a company saying, they'll port it to windows phone if they enough demands.

I do get that it's not a trivial task.
Again I was really just getting at the many companies who are already considering moving to Windows Phone but are on the fence.
As we know more and more apps are being ported every week so many companies already have been thinking about, planning or are already doing it. In some cases a little public pressure may at least confirm to them that people are interested and perhaps move things along.
lamborg - sorry if someone else already brought this up in another thread, I did search around first.

willp2 said:
I do get that it's not a trivial task.
Again I was really just getting at the many companies who are already considering moving to Windows Phone but are on the fence.
As we know more and more apps are being ported every week so many companies already have been thinking about, planning or are already doing it. In some cases a little public pressure may at least confirm to them that people are interested and perhaps move things along.
lamborg - sorry if someone else already brought this up in another thread, I did search around first.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am not sure either but I think I have seen a similar thread, Anyway, if that cannot be found.
BTW it was I think Draw Something which said about the enough demand.

Maybe try crowd funding
Maybe this is an area where crowd funding could help.
I mean, people can make noise about want for a particular WP7 app as much as they like, but at the end of the day somebody has to pay for development, in some way, either directly or indirectly.
A successful crowd funding campaign for an app would probably prove much more that there really is demand than just so many Facebook postings.
Of course there is also the danger that such a campaign fails miserably and shows that there isn't real demand, just a very vocal but small minority wanting the app...

rbrunner7 said:
Maybe this is an area where crowd funding could help.
I mean, people can make noise about want for a particular WP7 app as much as they like, but at the end of the day somebody has to pay for development, in some way, either directly or indirectly.
A successful crowd funding campaign for an app would probably prove much more that there really is demand than just so many Facebook postings.
Of course there is also the danger that such a campaign fails miserably and shows that there isn't real demand, just a very vocal but small minority wanting the app...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Guarantee this would not get noticed. Most users on the site don't even donate to the devs that post apps here that they use, let alone donate to some fund for the possibility of an app being ported.
Standard contractor rates for a software engineer are about $100 to $150 per hour. Salaried devs make less, but the cost is close to the same for companies because of benefits packages. So, 1 day of dev time for 1 developer is going to cost around $1000. My guess is a crowd fund would not even reach $100. But even if $10000 were collected, that would only cover a team of 5 for 2 days. And, 5 days for 20 business days would cost $100000. And this is is exactly why companies have been slow to bring apps over. It's expensive.
The other aspect is that although the syntax is similar in C#, Java, and C++; there are enough differences to make it less than a simple task to just switch over. Most devs with experience have been doing either C# or Java or C++. Most have not been doing all 3. This means paying money and taking time to get the existing devs trained or hire additional devs and transfering domain knowledge to them. Both have costs. (Note: iPhone is Objective C, which is different, but also has similarities. Same issues though)
Many companies just don't have the resources to spend when the return on investment is not short term. Long term as more consumers buy Windows Phones, it will be more economically viable for companies to invest in porting the applications.

JVH3 said:
Guarantee this would not get noticed. Most users on the site don't even donate to the devs that post apps here that they use
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He-he... Most users on the site are too lazy, greedy and irresponsible not even for donation but just for vote and review published here on XDA apps And some are so ungrateful that they forget just to say "Thanks"... Don't tell me about donations: I've collected money for Cotulla, for the Samsung's first freedom ROM for WP7... From hundreds of Focus owners here only 13 or 14 people are donated.
As for your arguments: it's 100% true for an adult professionals but of course not for 12-14 years old teens who "has over 20 years of software industry experience"

Yeah, I am myself a professional developer at day time, and I know how much it costs my company to employ me
But still, I think not all hope is lost. Some people may read this thread and just maybe change their attitude against devs that offer "free" things a little to the better - good that we talked about it, then!
And as I program in my free time anyway, just for fun, even a crowdsourced 1000 dollars could nudge me in a direction that I would not take otherwise, and people get the app they like. Of course only if the right APIs and server permissions are there to build it in the first place which of course is not always the case - many apps can only be built by the companies who own the corresponding server infrastructure.

rbrunner7 said:
Yeah, I am myself a professional developer at day time, and I know how much it costs my company to employ me
But still, I think not all hope is lost. Some people may read this thread and just maybe change their attitude against devs that offer "free" things a little to the better - good that we talked about it, then!
And as I program in my free time anyway, just for fun, even a crowdsourced 1000 dollars could nudge me in a direction that I would not take otherwise, and people get the app they like. Of course only if the right APIs and server permissions are there to build it in the first place which of course is not always the case - many apps can only be built by the companies who own the corresponding server infrastructure.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not to be discouraging, but it is pretty unlikely to get $1000 in donation from users here. It you look at the weather city editor that I wrote (link to thread in signature) for Windows Mobile, I got maybe close to $500 in donations from the time I created it through the entire time I worked on it, supported it, and enhanced it. I created it because I needed it and turned it into more than I needed so others could easily use it. The donations came from maybe 20 to 30 users. It was downloaded by well over 10000 users.
If looking for money as the reward, you are much better off paying Microsoft the $100 and putting the app on the marketplace and charging a dollar or making it be ad supported.
You'll still get respect for making cool things and posting them here, but it's not going to make you rich. It's a great place to learn and get some experience making apps though. Lots of people are willing to help if you get stuck on something.

It's a nice thought but, in reality it wont work
I thought about doing this too...
If you got everyone to attempt to do it, it might but, if you only get 50 people to do it(and that would be a lot in a fourm to request something they might not be interested in) that is a little bit compared to their marketplace with iOS or Android.
I personally really want Cut the Rope but, after posting a handfull of times on their facebook page and even emailing customer service, no luck

Finally Kyocera Duraforce My Already Rooted !

I ok will delete my share, co'z replay [URL="http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=61145873&postcount=63"]here[/URL] and here... If Mr Obsy no money to donate... no need donate... u
Thats not for money only! if your need donate, just donate.... if your no have money, you can use the tutorial without i know...|
although you can still consume without money... and our future you can still take my experience and try out without giving feedback or money ...
But these people speak as if I beggars and ask him...
The term donation, without coercion and determination....
But whether Mr. Osby has a copy and try to Kyoceranya then try to develop my tutorial last rewrite and publish at a later ??
thanks...
Somebody need try just contact me... without donate... just FREE! except Mr. Obsy

If u did this post just to ask money for someone else's work, better delete it because is not the way does this XDA community work....

I've never read something that immediately makes me feel as if I've just smoked every drug ever made in one setting. Never, until right just now.

kmt5150 said:
I've never read something that immediately makes me feel as if I've just smoked every drug ever made in one setting. Never, until right just now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sigh.... I cant tell anyone the frustration level i have is regarding this site, the ads, and the organzation of the info.... Im what everyone would consider an Old Guy! You know, the guy thats perfect for job and company age discrimination. Its difficult to tolerate lack of quality and mediocrity.
I have had a need for a cell phone that actually can take a tiny bump and survive unlike the rest of them due to the environment I work in. I have no choice.
However, as mentioned above from the prior poster regarding the crack pipe smoker.... I have fortold the future of legalized drugs in the US and the wonderful H1B Visa programs Scabs stealing American jobs... of course not to mention the fabulous resource ad intensive web browsing lockups on this website... etc, ect, ect,...
I only ask for a way to place a simple custom rom of the latest version of Android on my phone? Or maybe a link that has WORKING LINKS to the images and instructions on how to flash the phone. Which of course does not exist, work, or otherwise.... Seems to me that I use a program that crawls for dead links???? Wow theres an idea? especially if someone with good intentions cant live up to the good intentions....????
Its still amazing to me that I cant throw money at someone to:
A. View an ad free working forum website that doesn't lock my entire web browser and pc up.
B. Find someone who would simply provide successful workable steps with working links.
C. Or pay someone to walk me through a ROM flash since the very basics of this is the very basis of this website which has now been lost in space.
Why is it impossible to simply find the reason and goal of this website with working links? I realize Kyocera's are not the most popular phones, however an OS is an OS. Still surprising is that someone hasn't created a feature rich version that can be loaded on ANY phone with the ability to custom button functions. Just like any typical OS like windows or linux? If I had the time? I would provide this, however I guess since everyone works fulltime? We need a place to provide less than perfect projects to poison everyone elses phones??? The reason I dont do it is I realize that I dont have the time to provide a QUALITY functioning product without half way hacks...???
Please forgive me for being such a D***, I am truly sorry and mean no disrespect to all whom have worked so hard... The frustration level is based upon this lovely Javascript ad filled site that suck the life from my webbrowsers and my pc's.... I would give anything I had,,,, and I mean anything in order to have a five minute conversation with the creator of Javascript.....(The professors at the colleges insist he created Javascript in three weeks.... and it certainly shows) I guess it cost more than forty bucks a month to host this forum? so we need to make 10k a month to load it up with advertising and greed?
Thanks all for your patient and reviewing my post, I hope that you may be able to point me in the right direction. Please notice all the question marks... I put them there intentionally as a question becuase I dont understand why anyone would intentionally cripple a website with great info for money???? But again, remember Im stupid.

Why cant we s-off without that app? No Bashing! Just a Question

So its been a while since i had an htc.
The last one i had was so easy to root s-off super cid.
when it wasnt, i always loved the challenge.
If i recall you had to extract a file called mmcblk0p4 and modify it. Or just modify it with a hex editor right on your phone and place it back with a root explorer. actually i still have it in an old folder.
What is the problem here? How did htc fix that exploit? Why cant we figure it out?
Not that i dont appreciate an awesome app that does it for you. But i always loved doing it myself.
Not trying to bash or start a debate over moralities. Just an interesting and informative convo.

where there is a will there is a way!

Well actually I guess because the people who were discovering the exploits actually created sunshine and are distributing methods via this app only.

There's nobody that can use the app to figure out how the actual app does it?
Maybe I am thinking its more simple than it is. I know i sure as hell cant.

myphonesbetter said:
There's nobody that can use the app to figure out how the actual app does it?
Maybe I am thinking its more simple than it is. I know i sure as hell cant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's an old discussion, but if you look up the Sunshine app thread you'll come across the explanation of why they decided to charge and what went into achieving S-OFF. Short answer: it's really hard.

Been about a year since i logged in apparently.
computerslayer said:
It's an old discussion, but if you look up the Sunshine app thread you'll come across the explanation of why they decided to charge and what went into achieving S-OFF. Short answer: it's really hard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is the perfect answer. it really hard.
its because some people are lazy and others are greedy thats why.
Honestly paying for an app to just do everything takes the fun out of it. Im not a coder or anything but most of what i have learned is from flashing phones and modding video games lol. Just dont have quite enough of an obsessive personality to be a full on mr robot.
I can see making a payed version that does the work for you and takes away the risk of bricking your phone. for the people who just want want want.
This im sure would make more than enough to cover costs. especially if the dev was in india or something.
Used phones with cracked screens or broken headphone jacks are a dime a dozen.
Or how about someone just reverse engineer the sunshine app. Or FIND AN EXPLOIT. and release it to the forums.
FAIR GAME right?
This team spent 100s of dollars and 100s accumulative hours to exploit something that costs 100's of millions of dollars and who knows how many hours to create and distribute.
The development thread seems so commercial now. Wouldn't be surprised if most of them were making money data mining selling info to advertisers.
Isnt that where the real money is these days.
I cant pay for it for the same reason i cant pay money for the better gun in a video game. Just pay to win. doesn't feel the same.
Also android is open source and free.
It blows my mind that only this one group of people can figure out how to do this.
Seems like the fact that there is money to be made would encourage more guy fawkes' to create some friendly compotish.
Plus if more "exploiters" could start from there then eventually it could end up so much more refined. Just like everything else on these forums.
Anyways sunshine is free and along with water gives life to the entire planet. I think they got the name wrong.
walmart mod group. buy out all other "developers" (hackers) and charge the people that keep this whole thing going.
I can appreciate and even envy the business sense and intelligence it takes to do what they do. cant say if i was in their shoes i wouldnt do everything i could to monetize it. But its just sad to the the community go down the toilet. This forum used to be so much more exciting. it seems like it used to create developers now you just pick a rom and move on. mother ****ing sad face.

You do realize, if it was trivial and cheap to do, the dozens of people who come complain would have done it sometime in the last three years.
We even publish detailed write ups, and source code snippets to parts of sunshine, including vulnerabilities and exploits. We get people 90% of the way there.
Even with use giving away critical parts of the project, people still don't release free versions. Why? because it isn't easy, and it isn't cheap. You are going to ruin a lot of phones along the way, and your work on the "cheap ones" doesn't apply to the new expensive ones, you are starting over from scratch with each generation, often with each firmware release.
We don't sell data to anyone, no ads on our sites or apps, even the numerous free apps like weaksauce and depixel8 have no ads, nor do their associated websites (not counting the thieves that rehost them with ads, thats not us).
We bought out no one, we pay no one to develop for us. We reinvest funds into more phone and equipment, sometimes some booze, and often into charity. Even google called us out for our charity work on their VRP blog.
Good luck on your endeavors, I encourage you to make a free alternative, to invest the money and time we did out of your own pocket. Neither of us are educated in security or computer scienece, we picked it up along the way when trying to hack on phones. No excuses! Anyone complaining should be working on an alternative. Don't expect much donations, or if you put a price on it don't expect much money from it, it isn't there.
myphonesbetter said:
Been about a year since i logged in apparently.
That is the perfect answer. it really hard.
its because some people are lazy and others are greedy thats why.
Honestly paying for an app to just do everything takes the fun out of it. Im not a coder or anything but most of what i have learned is from flashing phones and modding video games lol. Just dont have quite enough of an obsessive personality to be a full on mr robot.
I can see making a payed version that does the work for you and takes away the risk of bricking your phone. for the people who just want want want.
This im sure would make more than enough to cover costs. especially if the dev was in india or something.
Used phones with cracked screens or broken headphone jacks are a dime a dozen.
Or how about someone just reverse engineer the sunshine app. Or FIND AN EXPLOIT. and release it to the forums.
FAIR GAME right?
This team spent 100s of dollars and 100s accumulative hours to exploit something that costs 100's of millions of dollars and who knows how many hours to create and distribute.
The development thread seems so commercial now. Wouldn't be surprised if most of them were making money data mining selling info to advertisers.
Isnt that where the real money is these days.
I cant pay for it for the same reason i cant pay money for the better gun in a video game. Just pay to win. doesn't feel the same.
Also android is open source and free.
It blows my mind that only this one group of people can figure out how to do this.
Seems like the fact that there is money to be made would encourage more guy fawkes' to create some friendly compotish.
Plus if more "exploiters" could start from there then eventually it could end up so much more refined. Just like everything else on these forums.
Anyways sunshine is free and along with water gives life to the entire planet. I think they got the name wrong.
walmart mod group. buy out all other "developers" (hackers) and charge the people that keep this whole thing going.
I can appreciate and even envy the business sense and intelligence it takes to do what they do. cant say if i was in their shoes i wouldnt do everything i could to monetize it. But its just sad to the the community go down the toilet. This forum used to be so much more exciting. it seems like it used to create developers now you just pick a rom and move on. mother ****ing sad face.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Sunshine has been about since the HTC One M7 days, I paid and used it on my M7 and M8 and about to use it on 2 x M9's, me personally, I really dont have a problem paying the $25 for it to do what it does, personally I think its dead cheap for what these guys did to get around HTCs so called fixes.
Now on to why it even costs in the first place, imagine whilst developing an app to this level, how many phones you had to buy and destroy along the way, this app isnt just for pretty much every HTC made since the M7, of course you are going to want some of it back, if you didnt, you'd be bankrupt in 2 days, with every release of firmware or every new phone release, the app needs to be modified and updated, Hell, you pay $200 for Microsoft Windows for the same reasons.

jcase said:
You do realize, if it was trivial and cheap to do, the dozens of people who come complain would have done it sometime in the last three years.
We even publish detailed write ups, and source code snippets to parts of sunshine, including vulnerabilities and exploits. We get people 90% of the way there.
Even with use giving away critical parts of the project, people still don't release free versions. Why? because it isn't easy, and it isn't cheap. You are going to ruin a lot of phones along the way, and your work on the "cheap ones" doesn't apply to the new expensive ones, you are starting over from scratch with each generation, often with each firmware release.
We don't sell data to anyone, no ads on our sites or apps, even the numerous free apps like weaksauce and depixel8 have no ads, nor do their associated websites (not counting the thieves that rehost them with ads, thats not us).
We bought out no one, we pay no one to develop for us. We reinvest funds into more phone and equipment, sometimes some booze, and often into charity. Even google called us out for our charity work on their VRP blog.
Good luck on your endeavors, I encourage you to make a free alternative, to invest the money and time we did out of your own pocket. Neither of us are educated in security or computer scienece, we picked it up along the way when trying to hack on phones. No excuses! Anyone complaining should be working on an alternative. Don't expect much donations, or if you put a price on it don't expect much money from it, it isn't there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks for the response. It would be nice to get a response on the actual q i posted lol. (different thread)
I guess its easier when its trivial.
Its good to hear you guys donate some of it. and that youve release the majority of the code. i guess people are just lazy.
Honestly you dont need s-off. The main reason i would want it is incase i need to go back to stock for warranty reasons. In which case the money would be worth it. still more fun do follow a write and learn about what i am doing in the process.
As far as data mining im talking about some of the more popular roms and apps out there. not just in the htc forum. Just a thought. why wouldn't they.
And the question isn't why its $25. I get that. It is totally worth it. Its so easy to use. I used to spend hours troubleshooting to get my phones s-off'd and running smooth on all the roms. now you can do it in seconds. these days i just pick one that works better than stock and stick with it. seems like stock updates kill the phones now.
Its why hasn't anybody exploited sunshine or made a completely different app that does the same thing. Or even better a write up on how to do it yourself.
To say its expensive on the older phones is a stretch and to say its too hard is eh.
I couldn't do it but you guys did (very quickly). so that means there is some 8 year old that could do it in his sleep.
And to say its out of pocket is a stretch when its a payed service. Most business endeavors or charities require some sort of investment.
And you can make a large chunk of the money back selling a bricked phone for parts. especially if its the latest model.
Why don't you guys release the code for free when you once you pay yourselves back. If more people started out where you left off (much like how you guys started) then the next generation would take no effort. If there were a thousand people testing and communicating and working together then the cost and time would be nothing.
There is nowhere to start anymore. there used to be all kinds of write ups that forced you to learn more about how everything works. then naturally some people figure out what they are actually doing are inspired to improve on it (sunshine for example). but now its just seems so overwhelming. Like nobody is there to help out when you get stuck.
I guess it dragged a little deeper than i wanted. But every time someone asks these questions it turns into insult matches or just the copy pasted comment of i don't think $25 is too much. if you cant afford that then blah blah . then all credibility is lost and people are persuaded to think as the majority of commenters think. Mouthbreathers will be mouthbreathers. But they are the ones that make this consumer based economy function properly.
Again, not trying to bash the people that put their time into this. More so trying to spark thoughts in people's minds who would normally just follow suit. Highlight different perspectives.

myphonesbetter said:
Its why hasn't anybody exploited sunshine or made a completely different app that does the same thing. Or even better a write up on how to do it yourself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Many people have tried to crack sunshine, I'm unaware of anyone being successful. It is actually pretty funny seeing how many hours people put into cracking SunShine, it is an worthless endeavor considering that most of the calculations are done server side, cracking the app doesn't get you anything as it is done server side. They would need to hack our WAN facing server, proxy through it and then hack the "offline" box we do the work on. This would be a felony on many levels. I like to think most people are honest, and don't go committing felony violations of CFAA over the fact that an app isn't free.
As far as a different app, it is hard, it is expensive, and most people with the skillset or drive, are tackling bigger problems.
Far as a writeup, we make plenty of them, where are your technical write ups?
myphonesbetter said:
To say its expensive on the older phones is a stretch and to say its too hard is eh.
I couldn't do it but you guys did (very quickly). so that means there is some 8 year old that could do it in his sleep.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
None of this is "very fast", it all has years of research behind it. Research we did, we put the time and money into. Yes even on old phones it is expensive, the software we use (IDA Pro and Jeb) alone are $1000s a year in licensing fees. Considering each person needs a license, its very costly. And yes, we are not thieves, we actually have licenses in our names. Many models we have spent money on, never sell more than a couple licenses. So the more popular models also fund the work done on models that don't make any sales. Sure we could just not add support for oddball models sold in only one country, but what fun is that.
myphonesbetter said:
And to say its out of pocket is a stretch when its a payed service. Most business endeavors or charities require some sort of investment.
And you can make a large chunk of the money back selling a bricked phone for parts. especially if its the latest model.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The investment would be the out of pocket part, money to start projects doesnt just magically show up. New HTC u11 is what $600 bucks? One we fried the soc and mmc on? What $50 if we are selling it honestly (cause that thing wont EVER be repaired, and screen is about the only part re-usable)? Plus we run the risk of our debug builds leaking if someone is able to extract memory from the device, no thanks, not reselling a burned phone for $50(or even $300) and risk losing everything we have worked on for the last few years.
myphonesbetter said:
Why don't you guys release the code for free when you once you pay yourselves back. If more people started out where you left off (much like how you guys started) then the next generation would take no effort. If there were a thousand people testing and communicating and working together then the cost and time would be nothing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We have released plenty of free training material, white papers and example source code for people to start off of. Those resources would be much better than starting off with SunShine source code. As we have said, when SunShine is done, we will open source it. Considering no one does anything with what we do release, I have doubts anyone would do anything with everything we don't release. We were sure we would get 0 sales on Droid Turbo after publishing that write up, we thought someone would have a free exploit written that day. It has been years, nothing so far.
myphonesbetter said:
If there were a thousand people testing and communicating and working together then the cost and time would be nothing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL. People don't contribute to most mobile OSS projects, go look at copperhead, look at their commit history. I'm even guilty of it, my contributions besides projects I helped started are minimal (even my commits to AOSP are few).
myphonesbetter said:
There is nowhere to start anymore. there used to be all kinds of write ups that forced you to learn more about how everything works. then naturally some people figure out what they are actually doing are inspired to improve on it (sunshine for example). but now its just seems so overwhelming. Like nobody is there to help out when you get stuck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All of our write ups are still up, and we still publish more each year, I don't know what the heck you are going on about here. Please take the time to look rather than just make such claims.
myphonesbetter said:
Again, not trying to bash the people that put their time into this. More so trying to spark thoughts in people's minds who would normally just follow suit. Highlight different perspectives.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, feel free to use the free resources we have and continue to provide to the community for free to build your own. We DO NOT discourage people from doing so, we actively encourage it by publishing a fair bit of our work for free. I even traveled on my own dime (not sunshine money, not someone else's money, but from my paycheck) without reimbursement to Las Vegas with Tim Strazzere and Caleb Fenton to provide trading FOR FREE. We over filled the maximum occupancy for the room. We were not allowed to take any more people.
In reality, and not to be insulting, it is pretty obvious you didn't properly research all of this.