Develop Bugs

Desire doesn't charge from usb when turned on

EDIT: ISSUE SOLVED, it appeared that my non-working camera was eating the battery like crazy, so I just isolated it from the pins with a little bit of scotch tape Now battery drain is normal.
Hello Guys,
Something strange started happening recently. When my desire is turned on, it won't charge from USB. The led light turns red, it looks like it's charging, the back gets VERY hot, but the phone doesn't really charge, in fact for a few hours it actually loses a few %.
If I turn it off, it charges well from both USB and wall socket. I still didn't try charging it from wall socket when turned on. Also, whenever I'd use it it would get very hot (even hotter than in the past)
The bad thing is that I did too many things to my desire at the same time and it's not easy to determine the real issue:
1. Flashed Leedroid GB rom
2. Opened the phone ~3 times in order to try to fix the camera and once to replace the earpiece (it was blown out).
3. Started using a cheap $2 ebay wall socket battery charger as I have 2 batteries.
I noticed the dialer app is eating quite some power, it's the second greediest right after the display in battery info. Also, the phone started draining the battery even faster then usual - for about 5 hours with moderate use (1 hour of reading and playing games) it's down to 30%. So, I am wondering - should I revert to an older rom (Android 2.2) or try something else?
Thanks for any kind of suggestions

i have exactly the same problem. Im using InsertCoin rom + is unlocked with an app from xda for using all networks

Ok, a short update - I managed to charge it while turned on with the wall socket charger. Meantime I also reverted to leedroid 2.5 final (android 2.2) and it didn't fix the problrem. I also calibrated the battery with the app " battery calibration " from the market, but this didn't help - for about an hour of save its now under 60%. And the phone is very hot in its lower back part. Seems the CPU is working quite a lot, which i have o idea why it does...
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA Premium App

Also check if u can enable Bluetooth
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App

Hmmm im not sure what u mean. Anyway, the issue appeared to be my camera which wasnt eorking but still eating a lot of battery, probably due to a a short cirquit. Thats why my phpne waznt charging - having it turned on was ating more battery than getting via the charger...
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA Premium App

Just try to enable Bluetooth and see if it activates and not just turns off
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App

USB charging power vs battery drain. Measurements inside!

I posted this a week ago elsewhere but thought you guys might find it of interest too.
After personally experiencing having my phone (A Verizon GN) end up LESS charged than I started out with on a 1 hour trip with navigation on while plugged in, I decided to run some tests.
The first was to see how much power the Galaxy Nexus could draw from the USB connection. This turns out to be about 4.5W. (0.9A at 5V)
(Edit: Yes I tied the data lines together so the GN knew it was hooked to a charger and not a PC)
I ran all kinds of applications, benchmarks, turned on all the networking, GPS. Just sitting there idle or in sleep mode it only drew 3.5W but I could push it up to 4.5W which is fairly close to the max most USB adapters can supply. My PS can deliver 8W so it had plenty of power to offer. So no matter how powerful your charger is, the GN simply won't draw more than 4.5W. Forget about those 3A chargers.
The next test was a bit trickier. I wanted to measure how much power the GN was drawing from the battery. Tiny contacts and an expensive phone made me a little cautious but I figured out a fairly safe way of doing this, and here are the results.
In sleep mode it only drew 0.04W with occasional spikes of 1W.
Powered on and idle it averaged 3W.
Running a CPU benchmark it stayed at 4W.
Downloading a large file over WiFi got a steady 4.2W.
Now the real test... Google Maps.
This varied a LOT. Minimum was 4W with some steady peaks of 5.1W!
That seems to be the problem. The GN can draw more power from the battery than the charging system can provide. In the real world the power draw is going to be worse because of all the switching of cell towers and map data downloading. I wasn't about to take my very delicate wiring job on the road, so will just have to guess at the final numbers, but just sitting still was enough to overpower the charger.
I doubt this can be a software fix where a hardware register can be changed to let the charging system draw 1.5A or something.
This also means that a 2A or 3A power supply is not going to help. As long as you have a 1A supply, that's all the GN will take. Do make sure it's wired right or it will only draw 0.5A, and be warned some USB jacks on stereos and computers might only give you 0.1A.
Now on to something else... the AMOLED screen! Does keeping it black really save power? The answer is... sort of!
I ran several tests with the device in airplane mode and just showing a solid color on the screen on the dimmest, and brightest screen settings.
Dim black: 1.8W
Dim white: 2.0W
Bright black: 1.9W
Bright white: 2.9W
For extra fun...
Bright Red: 2.5W
Bright Green: 2.6W
Bright Blue: 2.8W
So if you run the screen at the dimmest setting, it really doesn't matter what the screen is showing. If you run it at the brightest... then white really does draw more power. A lot more. If you can set Google Maps to display the screen mostly black, that could save a significant amount of power during navigation.
I was unable to find a way of turning off the display without putting the phone to sleep, so no idea how much of that power shown above is due to the screen and how much to running the CPU and all the other functions.
Anyway, I still have my spare battery rigged up so if you have any other good ideas for tests I can try them out.
Summary... under extreme battery drain conditions even the best USB charger can't keep up, but all you need to do is reduce the power draw a small amount and you will be back in the positive. Make sure your charger is supplying a full amp. Cheap chargers and cables without the data lines shorted will only give 0.5A and that is by far NOT enough to keep a GN charged while doing anything at all.

The screen measurement is awesome, good to see some real numbers (even if its not 100% accurate).
Also some things you do can still be done with the screen off. Like downloading a large file - or playing music. You could easily compare downloading a file and/or playing music with screen on or off to see the difference. Another interesting thing would be downloading via wifi vs download on 3g and LTE

wonshikee said:
Also some things you do can still be done with the screen off. Like downloading a large file - or playing music. You could easily compare downloading a file and/or playing music with screen on or off to see the difference. Another interesting thing would be downloading via wifi vs download on 3g and LTE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
And maybe also playing a HD (1280x720) video in Dice Player with full brightness...

It's important to point out that when your device uses more battery than it is able to recharge while being charged at the same time, then you are prone to sleep of death problem. I had exactly that happen on a ship to Finland. I only realized it the next day, once my battery ran down to percentages it was while I was on a ship and it froze. After reboot, I had lost up to 20% battery.
So I would avoid using the device while it is charging, but battery still runs down.

kristovaher said:
It's important to point out that when your device uses more battery than it is able to recharge while being charged at the same time, then you are prone to sleep of death problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My previous Android phone had this issue. If it got discharged too far it would shut down and wouldn't charge back up. I had to manually hook up power to the battery to kick start it. In fact... my former phone before that (Windows Mobile!) had the same issue! Seems to be a common design flaw.

iansmith said:
I posted this a week ago elsewhere but thought you guys might find it of interest too.
After personally experiencing having my phone (A Verizon GN) end up LESS charged than I started out with on a 1 hour trip with navigation on while plugged in, I decided to run some tests.
The first was to see how much power the Galaxy Nexus could draw from the USB connection. This turns out to be about 4.5W. (0.9A at 5V)
(Edit: Yes I tied the data lines together so the GN knew it was hooked to a charger and not a PC)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Saw this when you posted it "elsewhere" a week or so ago. Definitely might get more love here though. I love the idea of people or google developing more black background apps and a night mode of Maps / Navigation and Gmail. Seeing these numbers it really would make a difference.

Very interesting write up! I have a question though...you mention shorting the data lines to get a full amp. Is there a tutorial somewhere that explains how to do this? I will be taking a long road trip (like 3600 miles round trip long) this summer and will be using GPS a lot so I would sure like to do that. I would be running a Rocketfish car charger-to-USB adapter and using a USB cord plugged into that and then run that to the car dock. Thanks.

Accord281 said:
Very interesting write up! I have a question though...you mention shorting the data lines to get a full amp. Is there a tutorial somewhere that explains how to do this? I will be taking a long road trip (like 3600 miles round trip long) this summer and will be using GPS a lot so I would sure like to do that. I would be running a Rocketfish car charger-to-USB adapter and using a USB cord plugged into that and then run that to the car dock. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003VYBCAY/ref=oh_o00_s00_i00_details
These cables don't have a data line, it'll get you the full amp. Big difference when I use it in my car vs a normal cable.

When we use the provided cable and Samsung USB adapter we still get 1A correct?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium

arasky said:
When we use the provided cable and Samsung USB adapter we still get 1A correct?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, the provided adapter gives out a full 1 amp and shorts the data lines so the phone knows it can draw as much current as it can handle.

[Q] charging?

i have noticed twice in the last week that when i take my phone off charge in the morning it has been dead... like it was never charging. is this a faulty device or is it common for everyone

doesn't sound right. check whats eating up the battery at night, might be a dodgy app but sounds like a dodgy battery

Sometimes if it's using a lot of power it will be drawing more than the charger gives and still use up the battery. Make sure there aren't any programs running or large amounts of data being transferred on data networks.
It's really bad to run the battery all the way down. If you can't figure out what it is, it may be worth sending it in for service/replacement.

That happens to me with bricked kernel, are u using it?
Sent from my HTC One X using XDA

Id suspect faulty usb/ charger if they move ever so slightly on worn bad cords itl drop charge even tho it was chsrging when u set it down for the night
I know.i have about 5 extra chargers two of them do this everytime
Suspect a charger before u suspect a 600$ phone
Sent from my HTC One X using XDA

okay, i have an update.. this is freaking weird. i have a video and picture of this for proof. the phone was sitting on my desk with the screen off unplugged from the charger.. and then the screen and charging light come on, followed by a beep, and sure enough the charging animation was there... but the phone wasnt plugged in.. i started playing with it and a message popped up saying the phone is using more power than the charger can discharge... 'BUT YOUR NOT PLUGGED IN' :S
i will take it back tomorrow and try for my 5th faultless phone :S sigh*

Has anyone else had an issue like the following
1. phone is off (0%)
2. Plugin charger
3. Red light activates (charging while off)
4. Random amount of time passes eg. 30 mins phone boots up by itself
???
Can anyone explain?
is the phone faulty or charger maybe the cause?

jinkira said:
Has anyone else had an issue like the following
1. phone is off (0%)
2. Plugin charger
3. Red light activates (charging while off)
4. Random amount of time passes eg. 30 mins phone boots up by itself
???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your not really supposed to run the battery down to zero. It could be designed to boot automatically if the battery had been below a certain amount and it turned off due to that... Not that i have anything to back that theory up...
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

fknshwow said:
okay, i have an update.. this is freaking weird. i have a video and picture of this for proof. the phone was sitting on my desk with the screen off unplugged from the charger.. and then the screen and charging light come on, followed by a beep, and sure enough the charging animation was there... but the phone wasnt plugged in.. i started playing with it and a message popped up saying the phone is using more power than the charger can discharge... 'BUT YOUR NOT PLUGGED IN' :S
i will take it back tomorrow and try for my 5th faultless phone :S sigh*
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A Possible cause could be damaged usb port (charging port). Get it to service center.

shahidhussain said:
A Possible cause could be damaged usb port (charging port). Get it to service center.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yreah, i have returned it via optus elf... should have a brand new one within the week

i noticed that then my phone is on charge, the screen becomes really unresponsive, it take at least five times until i can unlock it, and as soon as i unlock it automatically phone app opens by it self. really annoying issue, i cant use my phone when it is being charged. it doesnt get too hot or anything, just the screen is very unresponsive.
anyone else have it?

[Q] Led flashing and green. Unable to charge phone. Help!

As my HOX was charging, via a USB cable to plug, the screen started flickering slightly and the phone shut itself down. The phone was 10% charged. Now when I try to charge it the LED flashes red and green and doesn't seem to charge. I've read that this could be due to overheating so I left my phone untouched for a couple of hours but it's still flashing red and green/green. Something feels seriously wrong.
Is there something I can do to fix this?
When the problem started the phone was quite warm but nowhere near as hot as it has been, and I wasn't using it that much.
The only thing different today was that I was using a plug that I don't normally use, the cable I have used before.
Any ideas?
How much does a battery replacement cost?
Thanks
Chris

evilgeeius said:
As my HOX was charging, via a USB cable to plug, the screen started flickering slightly and the phone shut itself down. The phone was 10% charged. Now when I try to charge it the LED flashes red and green and doesn't seem to charge. I've read that this could be due to overheating so I left my phone untouched for a couple of hours but it's still flashing red and green/green. Something feels seriously wrong.
Is there something I can do to fix this?
When the problem started the phone was quite warm but nowhere near as hot as it has been, and I wasn't using it that much.
The only thing different today was that I was using a plug that I don't normally use, the cable I have used before.
Any ideas?
How much does a battery replacement cost?
Thanks
Chris
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't you have the charger and cable it came with? Try another charger that can supply at least 1 amp and try a different cable.
The only time I've had this is when it's overheated.
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Charged to 28% but then shut down after light usage
Ok I've managed to get it charging up to 28%. Then I stopped charging it and started using it to do some light Internet browsing, but after about 15 minutes it suddenly shut itself down even though it wasn't hot and had plenty of battery. What's going on?

You might have damaged the battery using a non standard plug. It might be more than the phone can handle
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app

XxVcVxX said:
You might have damaged the battery using a non standard plug. It might be more than the phone can handle
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I always had the impression that the USB plugs were all standardised and acted the same?

Can charge it to 60% but turns off after heavy usage
OK I've managed to get this battery to charge up to 60%. It won't go any higher than that. I was using today quite heavily for about 30 minutes and it got quite hot and turned itself off.
Will replacing the battery sort this problem out or is there something else wrong?
Thanks
Chris

I'd be surprised if it was the battery, I'd try a factory reset, anb if that doesn't work, an RUU.

[Q] 8.4 Battery Calibration ? Charging stops at 89%

Hello:
My Tab Pro 8.4 has picked up an issue - it stops charging at 89%. Battery monitor - the one built in, as well as GSAM Battery monitor - show the charging increasing charge in a linear fashion to some 85%, then the rate gradually decreases, till the curve flattens at 89%. The phone still claims that the battery is charging.
I just discharged the phone fully, let it recharge - same behavior.
I did root the phone 2 days before, I wonder, if that has something to do with it.
Thanks for any info, Paul.

paulcc said:
Hello:
My Tab Pro 8.4 has picked up an issue - it stops charging at 89%. Battery monitor - the one built in, as well as GSAM Battery monitor - show the charging increasing charge in a linear fashion to some 85%, then the rate gradually decreases, till the curve flattens at 89%. The phone still claims that the battery is charging.
I just discharged the phone fully, let it recharge - same behavior.
I did root the phone 2 days before, I wonder, if that has something to do with it.
Thanks for any info, Paul.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello,
maybe you need to recalibrate your battery. This can be done by deleting batterystats.bin. Search google play, there are some apps, that can do it.

Rutr said:
Hello,
maybe you need to recalibrate your battery. This can be done by deleting batterystats.bin. Search google play, there are some apps, that can do it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the info.
In desperation, I tried few things - first a Nandroid restore to the state just after rooting - that did not help.
Next I performed a hard reset. That fixed the problem for now.
I will carefully put back in the xposed modules I used, an see/hope that the problem does not come back.
Paul.

paulcc said:
Thanks for the info.
In desperation, I tried few things - first a Nandroid restore to the state just after rooting - that did not help.
Next I performed a hard reset. That fixed the problem for now.
I will carefully put back in the xposed modules I used, an see/hope that the problem does not come back.
Paul.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Glad to hear that. Thanks for info.

Hi,
Did you find the actual cause of this?
I have a stock 8.4, non rooted and I find the same thing, I have attached a screen shot of the battery charge and dream. ...
Can anyone help with this please, the battery is bad enough without it topping off at 89%!!
Cheers,
Ian

Hi,
Has anyone else had this issue?
I let my tab run down to a dead battery, plugged it on over night and it is still only at 87% ...
Its driving me nuts!
I am not rooted, so don't see bow it's anything I have done, any ideas?!;
Thanks in advance

ianuk said:
Hi,
Has anyone else had this issue?
I let my tab run down to a dead battery, plugged it on over night and it is still only at 87% ...
Its driving me nuts!
I am not rooted, so don't see bow it's anything I have done, any ideas?!;
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do not have an answer, but I wanted to thank you for posting - your answer seems to indicate, that this is a issue not related to rooting.
While dealing with this, I have put back the stock rom ( but still with custom recovery on the device ) - which made charging work to 100%, then rooted again. With this config the charging worked for few days to 100%, till if failed again all of a sudden, getting stuck at 91% charge, and claiming, that the charging was ongoing for may hours.
While the charging was broken, I put on the CleanROM 1.0, and that fixed the charging problem again.
I do not see a clear pattern of this failure....
Paul.

Rutr said:
maybe you need to recalibrate your battery. This can be done by deleting batterystats.bin. Search google play, there are some apps, that can do it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This does not "calibrate" anything. Any app that claims to fix the battery meter by wiping this file, is making a bogus claim. All the batterystats.bin files does, is indicate how much battery various apps/processes are using since the last charge. The file gets wiped ever time you connect the charger:
http://www.xda-developers.com/android/google-engineer-debunks-myth-wiping-battery-stats-does-not-improve-battery-life/
What you want, is to reset the "high" and "low" voltage flags related to Smart Battery. If there is an app that can do that, it might resolve your issue. Flashing a ROM also resets the flags (why you always need to do a battery charge/discharge cycle to get accurate readings every time you flash a ROM). So you might flash the ROM you are already on (stock?) and see if that helps.
But the issue itself is odd. If a higher voltage is achieved, I believe the "high" flag should automatically be reset. I shouldn't just "stop" at 89%.

Yes, I have (had) the same problem. I would use the tab through the day, then plug it in. In the morning, it would almost always be around 89...sometimes a bit more, others a bit less. I loaded battery doctor from the play store and set up a widget to kill all but a few specified apps (yeah, I typically try to avoid task killers, but this was driving me crazy). In my case, when I killed the apps, the battery would finish charging.
Theory (take it with a grain of salt as your mileage may vary): either the charger I am using or the tab has 'intelligence' that slows the charging down when it nears full, possibly to protect the battery. Certain apps running (sleeping?) in the background seem to keep the tab perpetually in a near-full charge state -- just enough of a drain to balance the 'slowing' charge. Every time I have killed the apps, the tab has quickly finished charging.
Again, this is just my experience. YMMV Good luck.

Try running the battery down to below 20% then recharge it. That should recalibrate the battery monitor.
Sent from my SM-T900 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app

I've been having issues with my 8.4 stopping charging only midway to 100%. If I unplug the cable and replug it, it continues charging.

Civuck said:
I've been having issues with my 8.4 stopping charging only midway to 100%. If I unplug the cable and replug it, it continues charging.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i have had the exact same issue , mine stops charging at 54% , need to unplug replug and then it starts charging back again, also from 78% it jumped straight to 100, something is really wrong , how could samsung break something so simple and basic

I've got a very similar problem. It stops charging, usually at something like 40 or 50. If I restart it will continue charging, but not all the way, maybe up to 70 or 80. I think I tried just disconnecting the charger and reconnecting it and it didn't work but I'll try it again as that would be easier than restarting...
I sent it for service and after weeks of back and forth they gave me the old "it's rooted, so it's out of warranty".
F U Samsung. This piece of **** tablet has been messed up since day 1. First with the over sensitive screen and now this. Sony FTW.

omarrabbat said:
I've got a very similar problem. It stops charging, usually at something like 40 or 50. If I restart it will continue charging, but not all the way, maybe up to 70 or 80. I think I tried just disconnecting the charger and reconnecting it and it didn't work but I'll try it again as that would be easier than restarting...
I sent it for service and after weeks of back and forth they gave me the old "it's rooted, so it's out of warranty".
F U Samsung. This piece of **** tablet has been messed up since day 1. First with the over sensitive screen and now this. Sony FTW.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to unplug the battery under the rear cover. Then plug it back in and boot up and charge it. Only way to fix. I never had issues again after doing that.

dottat said:
You need to unplug the battery under the rear cover. Then plug it back in and boot up and charge it. Only way to fix. I never had issues again after doing that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for that advice! How can I remove the rear cover? I'm afraid I'll damage it if I just brute force it open.

omarrabbat said:
Thanks for that advice! How can I remove the rear cover? I'm afraid I'll damage it if I just brute force it open.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Gently with something similar to a guitar pick. Once its started just gently go along the edge.

omarrabbat said:
Thanks for that advice! How can I remove the rear cover? I'm afraid I'll damage it if I just brute force it open.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you try it already, and if so, did it work..?

HELP
Sicron said:
Did you try it already, and if so, did it work..?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you please take a picture of the procedure or make a short vid please? You open in from the rear (on the fake leather) of from the front( screens bezel) ?
I have the same problem with my SM-T325 , i've tried everything on forums : reset, hard reset( vol menu button power button) nothing works !
Thanks !
Ps: I'm using genuine 2A white charger and even tried with Asus Nexus 7 charger 2A( ridiculously is that it works better than with the genuine samsung, the white one needs 5 unplug/plugs, with Asus Black charger only 3 unplug/plugs )

cristi_pitbull said:
Can you please take a picture of the procedure or make a short vid please? You open in from the rear (on the fake leather) of from the front( screens bezel) ?
I have the same problem with my SM-T325 , i've tried everything on forums : reset, hard reset( vol menu button power button) nothing works !
Thanks !
Ps: I'm using genuine 2A white charger and even tried with Asus Nexus 7 charger 2A( ridiculously is that it works better than with the genuine samsung, the white one needs 5 unplug/plugs, with Asus Black charger only 3 unplug/plugs )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My battery has the same issue. I'm going to start charging my Tab Pro 8.4 with a lower amp/volt charger. I think the 5.3 volts & 2 amps puts stress on the internal charging / battery regulator circuit. The 5.3 volt makes the usb cable in the tablet reasonably hot to the touch. (a hunch)
Galaxy Tab Pro 8.4 Battery Replacement Video
Update: I scraped the 5.3 volt charger for a standard 5 volt charger @ 2 amps. It won't charge while in use but it does charge to 100% from 5%, powered off overnight. I also tested a 5 volt 1 amp charger (while slower) did charge from ~50% to 100%.
I would like to see others test this theory out.
Would also like to note, I believe Samsung included a 5.3V charger instead of a standard 5V so the tablet is able to charge while in use. My guess is the circuitry was originally designed for the standard 5 volts but once they saw the tablet's charge rate while on, they decided to throw in a different charger to make up for their mistake instead of a more reliable circuit design to handle the volt boost. More then likely they did tests to see if the tablet was able to handle the new charger but did not conduct the experiment for enough time to see the degrading results (faulty battery level readout).
If they knew of the issue in production they could have fixed the issue in a batch revision or recall or they flat out ignored the results and are in denial. Shame on Samsung if this is the case. Funny how they released the "better"("revision") Tab S while refusing to fix the Tab Pro. Now it seems to be biting them in the ass.
I still want to completely test this theory out and give it more time, but so far my assumption is seemingly correct.

cristi_pitbull said:
Can you please take a picture of the procedure or make a short vid please? You open in from the rear (on the fake leather) of from the front( screens bezel) ?
I have the same problem with my SM-T325 , i've tried everything on forums : reset, hard reset( vol menu button power button) nothing works !
Thanks !
Ps: I'm using genuine 2A white charger and even tried with Asus Nexus 7 charger 2A( ridiculously is that it works better than with the genuine samsung, the white one needs 5 unplug/plugs, with Asus Black charger only 3 unplug/plugs )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had another interesting experience with this tablet.... it charged 100% without notice that the battery is full(I saw this tiny little detail -battery full icon- ensures that it is really charged) restarted it to verify something and shock !!! the value dropped to 62% and the charging sequence stopped ...and even if it shows "charging" while I'm typing these lines, it dropped to 59% ). **** !!!