Microsoft Security Essentials detected a temp file with virus in it while importing pictures from my trophy.
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Did you use some third-party camera app on WP7? Another reason: you PC is already infected with that kind of virus (check http://www.securelist.com/en/descriptions/old57108 )
And third: probably, it's false alert of Security Essentials.
You probably saved a file from the internet that was modified to create a buffer overrun in unpatched Windows desktop systems. You can read more here: http://www.microsoft.com/security/portal/Threat/Encyclopedia/Entry.aspx?Name=Exploit%3aWin32%2fMS04028!jpeg
Nope, didnt save any pictures from the web. And it clearly states there in the picture that the file came from the camera roll folder instead of the saved pictures, and this window showed up right after zune finished syncing.
Just took a photo and imported it in zune... no viruses. I wonder what happened.
downloaderintruder said:
I wonder what happened.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
False alert; some bytes in your jpeg looks like virus signature for MS antivirus. Probability of this is very small but not equal 0.
Windows Phone has a big problem with viruses. This is because the core of the OS is compatible with Windows desktop.
AVG antivirus for Windows Phone was on the Windows Marketplace, but it itself was a worm-like collector of personal data. Windows Phone itself with its Bing are getting all your personal data.
The good thing about Android OS is the code is open, anybody can read it. There are no traps of collecting personal information to give to the government agencies or police, where Microsoft OS is closed source, nobody can know or control.
Infecting Windows Phone with a virus is as easy as opening a jpg image, an email or an attachment.
Buying a Windows Phone require a purchase of a good anti-virus, now that AVG anti-virus was more like a worm collecting data. Even though, the reports are that the anti-virus is blocking the ports and the 3G connection gets blocked, only wi-fi connection still works. Bluetooth connection is not affected.
Interlingua_TV said:
Windows Phone has a big problem with viruses. This is because the core of the OS is compatible with Windows desktop.
AVG antivirus for Windows Phone was on the Windows Marketplace, but it itself was a worm-like collector of personal data. Windows Phone itself with its Bing are getting all your personal data.
The good thing about Android OS is the code is open, anybody can read it. There are no traps of collecting personal information to give to the government agencies or police, where Microsoft OS is closed source, nobody can know or control.
Infecting Windows Phone with a virus is as easy as opening a jpg image, an email or an attachment.
Buying a Windows Phone require a purchase of a good anti-virus, now that AVG anti-virus was more like a worm collecting data. Even though, the reports are that the anti-virus is blocking the ports and the 3G connection gets blocked, only wi-fi connection still works. Bluetooth connection is not affected.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That made absolutely no sense.. The core OS is NOT compatible with the Desktop by any means. Here's why.. Windows Phone runs on ARM processors and Windows Desktops run on x86/x64... There hasn't been any news about a virus running on Windows Phones.. The reason being is that the applications created use Silverlight which has LIMITED functionality.. limited enough that it can't modify the Windows directory. Also in terms of an image obtaining a virus, the only way that could happen is if the computer was already infected. Any malicious code could hide on a Windows desktop and listen for any Mass Storage device connection and proceed to infect. Android... I've seen multiple news stories about rampant viruses on that OS due to malicious apps being downloaded and even accepted into the Market. Unfortunately an app can do a LOT of damage to an Android phone . As for collecting data, there have been multiple news articles about SMS, etc being captured on Android phones... No reports on Windows Phones. Nice try
Interlingua_TV said:
Windows Phone has a big problem with viruses. This is because the core of the OS is compatible with Windows desktop.
AVG antivirus for Windows Phone was on the Windows Marketplace, but it itself was a worm-like collector of personal data. Windows Phone itself with its Bing are getting all your personal data.
The good thing about Android OS is the code is open, anybody can read it. There are no traps of collecting personal information to give to the government agencies or police, where Microsoft OS is closed source, nobody can know or control.
Infecting Windows Phone with a virus is as easy as opening a jpg image, an email or an attachment.
Buying a Windows Phone require a purchase of a good anti-virus, now that AVG anti-virus was more like a worm collecting data. Even though, the reports are that the anti-virus is blocking the ports and the 3G connection gets blocked, only wi-fi connection still works. Bluetooth connection is not affected.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
uhm...yea, right, and sky is pink everyday.
Interlingua_TV said:
Windows Phone has a big problem with viruses. This is because the core of the OS is compatible with Windows desktop.
AVG antivirus for Windows Phone was on the Windows Marketplace, but it itself was a worm-like collector of personal data. Windows Phone itself with its Bing are getting all your personal data.
The good thing about Android OS is the code is open, anybody can read it. There are no traps of collecting personal information to give to the government agencies or police, where Microsoft OS is closed source, nobody can know or control.
Infecting Windows Phone with a virus is as easy as opening a jpg image, an email or an attachment.
Buying a Windows Phone require a purchase of a good anti-virus, now that AVG anti-virus was more like a worm collecting data. Even though, the reports are that the anti-virus is blocking the ports and the 3G connection gets blocked, only wi-fi connection still works. Bluetooth connection is not affected.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LMAO! THAT was your first post on XDA?
Noobnuts!
Interlingua_TV said:
Windows Phone has a big problem with viruses. This is because the core of the OS is compatible with Windows desktop.
AVG antivirus for Windows Phone was on the Windows Marketplace, but it itself was a worm-like collector of personal data. Windows Phone itself with its Bing are getting all your personal data.
The good thing about Android OS is the code is open, anybody can read it. There are no traps of collecting personal information to give to the government agencies or police, where Microsoft OS is closed source, nobody can know or control.
Infecting Windows Phone with a virus is as easy as opening a jpg image, an email or an attachment.
Buying a Windows Phone require a purchase of a good anti-virus, now that AVG anti-virus was more like a worm collecting data. Even though, the reports are that the anti-virus is blocking the ports and the 3G connection gets blocked, only wi-fi connection still works. Bluetooth connection is not affected.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
/facepalm
10char
Interlingua_TV said:
Windows Phone has a big problem with viruses. This is because the core of the OS is compatible with Windows desktop.
AVG antivirus for Windows Phone was on the Windows Marketplace, but it itself was a worm-like collector of personal data. Windows Phone itself with its Bing are getting all your personal data.
.....................
Buying a Windows Phone require a purchase of a good anti-virus, now that AVG anti-virus was more like a worm collecting data. Even though, the reports are that the anti-virus is blocking the ports and the 3G connection gets blocked, only wi-fi connection still works. Bluetooth connection is not affected.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hahahaha greatest post I've seen in ages....THUMBS UP!! lol, wow.
snickler said:
The core OS is NOT compatible with the Desktop by any means. Here's why.. Windows Phone runs on ARM processors and Windows Desktops run on x86/x64...
...applications created use Silverlight which has LIMITED functionality.. limited enough that it can't modify the Windows directory. Also in terms of an image obtaining a virus, the only way that could happen is if the computer was already infected. Any malicious code could hide on a Windows desktop and listen for any Mass Storage device connection and proceed to infect. Android... I've seen multiple news stories about rampant viruses on that OS due to malicious apps being downloaded and even accepted into the Market. Unfortunately an app can do a LOT of damage to an Android phone . As for collecting data, there have been multiple news articles about SMS, etc being captured on Android phones... No reports on Windows Phones. Nice try
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What you are saying is that Windows Phone with Silverlight is LIMITED.
And Windows Phone does not support SD cards (mass storage). And the applications need to be installed from Windows Market.
Yes, I agree WP being limited and not accessing SD cards.
Still, emails, attachments, jpg files can come into the device through email and other means.
Android also uses a virtual java machine similar to Silverlight .NET reduced virtual machine. Windows Phone and Android can both get viruses. Just Windows Phone is more vulnerable, and Windows 8 desktop runs also on ARM. Windows desktop is not anymore x86 only (I don't know what you mean by x64).
It must be funny with these excuses. Windows Phone gets malware: warms and viruses, this is why AVG antivirus was accepted in the first place on Windows Market by Microsoft. The fact that it collected the email address, name, IMEI and the location made Microsoft to stop AVG. AVG said they had that data mining (data collection) for a new version of the anti virus that will support retrieval if a lost device.
AVG Mobilation – security software for Windows Phone™.
Stay safe from phishing and malware while surfing the web
Allowing you search the web avoiding malicious web sites
I have yet to see 3rd party virus or loophole that would be accessible through MS's code only without the need of any OEM hole.
WP7 is the safest mobile OS. Yes, I said it and I ain't taking it back.
You have clearly no idea what you are talking about . Sure, W8 is on ARM, but that doesn't mean anything. W8 is (will be) running NT6.2 kernel, WP7 is CE6/7/whatever. They are far from close. Hopefuly Apollo builds will be built on NT6.2 kernel or its fork too. But I am pretty sure that there will not be any holes. MS can not afford having any problems. At least not now or in near future.
This interlingua guy has to be a secondary account trolling. AVG collected registry data so it could remove a certain variety of alterations supposedly. Android gets malware, wp7 does not.
Interlingua_TV said:
What you are saying is that Windows Phone with Silverlight is LIMITED.
And Windows Phone does not support SD cards (mass storage). And the applications need to be installed from Windows Market.
Yes, I agree WP being limited and not accessing SD cards.
Still, emails, attachments, jpg files can come into the device through email and other means.
Android also uses a virtual java machine similar to Silverlight .NET reduced virtual machine. Windows Phone and Android can both get viruses. Just Windows Phone is more vulnerable, and Windows 8 desktop runs also on ARM. Windows desktop is not anymore x86 only (I don't know what you mean by x64).
It must be funny with these excuses. Windows Phone gets malware: warms and viruses, this is why AVG antivirus was accepted in the first place on Windows Market by Microsoft. The fact that it collected the email address, name, IMEI and the location made Microsoft to stop AVG. AVG said they had that data mining (data collection) for a new version of the anti virus that will support retrieval if a lost device.
AVG Mobilation – security software for Windows Phone™.
Stay safe from phishing and malware while surfing the web
Allowing you search the web avoiding malicious web sites
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah you're definitely a troll lol. What I meant to say out of rage for ignorance was stating that Windows Desktop and the Windows Phone has completely different kernels . Doesn't matter if you have an SD card or what.. Android gives you deeper access to screw things up... Although it does use a JVM to RUN the apps, the OS itself gives access to ruin system files. TL;DR WP7 is safe. Mod, thread needs closed now lol.
My trolldar is going off in this thread.
Interlingua_TV said:
What you are saying is that Windows Phone with Silverlight is LIMITED.
And Windows Phone does not support SD cards (mass storage). And the applications need to be installed from Windows Market.
Yes, I agree WP being limited and not accessing SD cards.
Still, emails, attachments, jpg files can come into the device through email and other means.
Android also uses a virtual java machine similar to Silverlight .NET reduced virtual machine. Windows Phone and Android can both get viruses. Just Windows Phone is more vulnerable, and Windows 8 desktop runs also on ARM. Windows desktop is not anymore x86 only (I don't know what you mean by x64).
It must be funny with these excuses. Windows Phone gets malware: warms and viruses, this is why AVG antivirus was accepted in the first place on Windows Market by Microsoft. The fact that it collected the email address, name, IMEI and the location made Microsoft to stop AVG. AVG said they had that data mining (data collection) for a new version of the anti virus that will support retrieval if a lost device.
AVG Mobilation – security software for Windows Phone™.
Stay safe from phishing and malware while surfing the web
Allowing you search the web avoiding malicious web sites
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know if my brain messed up because i have no idea what the heck he is talking about.
nice laugh tho
OndraSter said:
I have yet to see 3rd party virus or loophole that would be accessible through MS's code only without the need of any OEM hole.
WP7 is the safest mobile OS. Yes, I said it and I ain't taking it back.
You have clearly no idea what you are talking about . Sure, W8 is on ARM, but that doesn't mean anything. W8 is (will be) running NT6.2 kernel, WP7 is CE6/7/whatever. They are far from close. Hopefuly Apollo builds will be built on NT6.2 kernel or its fork too. But I am pretty sure that there will not be any holes. MS can not afford having any problems. At least not now or in near future.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed, even if a virus managed to get on your phone some how, it probably wouldn't know what to do, the dam system is so tight that you have a hard time adding a simple ringtone or a wallpaper on the start screen.
And to add to this... there is no root access in windows phone. Every app is sandboxed. For example, PDFs do not show up in the office hub. They are stuck in Adobe's sandbox on the phone. So a virus could only, really effect itself when it was being ran.
Nominated !!!!!
this thread is nominated to be one of the biggist troll/noobtroll threads on xda ever.
Related
So I just switched from my old but faithful Razr2 to a Samsung moment, and this is my first time owning an Andoid device.
The platform is definitely very entertaining with all of its apps... but in the end that's all it really has, APPS (same with the iphone).
The reality is that WP7 brings a whole new layer to the smartphone category, and that is Microsoft office. Why shouldn't I be able to do my work off the couch? All I can do with my Moment is have fun and maybe exchange some e-mails,but it does not have any business functionality which is what will make WP7 special. Once Microsoft is able to develop its APP store, it will have the best of both worlds, Business and Entertainment, which is somethinmg neither Apple or Google has at the moment.
I agree.
It must also be mentioned that MS platforms have always gotten done games right. This thing is already shaping up to give the PSP a run for it's money.
You're not using the right apps then. Or you're in a strange line of work.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
my personal view
Android has no business functionability ?
Give me a break ! I've been a windows mobile user over 10 years and all I got was breaking my nerves and endless waits for basic functionability !!! I can do miracles blazing fast with android and I am never going back to windows platform again. I guess u didn't 'play' with Android enough.
My office is always in my pocket and syncs with my Linux laptop and windows desktop over the air perfectly and on an instant. And guess what ? I never need to reboot my android phone! Neither I wait 5 secs for the phone panel to come up whenever I want to dial. I had so many windows mobile devices (first was Jornada 720 in 1997 and last was HTC touch pro). All were crawling and I could do far less from what I can do with my Android phone.
Sent from Phone btw (HTC desire)
blaiz123 said:
So I just switched from my old but faithful Razr2 to a Samsung moment, and this is my first time owning an Andoid device.
The platform is definitely very entertaining with all of its apps... but in the end that's all it really has, APPS (same with the iphone).
The reality is that WP7 brings a whole new layer to the smartphone category, and that is Microsoft office. Why shouldn't I be able to do my work off the couch? All I can do with my Moment is have fun and maybe exchange some e-mails,but it does not have any business functionality which is what will make WP7 special. Once Microsoft is able to develop its APP store, it will have the best of both worlds, Business and Entertainment, which is somethinmg neither Apple or Google has at the moment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Run Zune software on a corporate PC to sync your phone. I don't think so.
You're describing WM6.5, and hopefully WP8, but not WP7.
awechris said:
Android has no business functionability ?
Give me a break ! I've been a windows mobile user over 10 years and all I got was breaking my nerves and endless waits for basic functionability !!! I can do miracles blazing fast with android and I am never going back to windows platform again. I guess u didn't 'play' with Android enough.
My office is always in my pocket and syncs with my Linux laptop and windows desktop over the air perfectly and on an instant. And guess what ? I never need to reboot my android phone! Neither I wait 5 secs for the phone panel to come up whenever I want to dial. I had so many windows mobile devices (first was Jornada 720 in 1997 and last was HTC touch pro). All were crawling and I could do far less from what I can do with my Android phone.
Sent from Phone btw (HTC desire)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i dont want to bash windows i really dont because i used them for awhile; however, windows 6.5 and previous version didnt work well. i restarted countless times with my TP2. it became such a hassle that after awhile i try to use the lightest custom roms just to do texting and calls and still i freeze and restart. seeing that things may be different with WP7 but i spent enough money on something for many years that didnt do a great job on there OS, shot, i think the Symbian OS did a better job. there are other OS sellers that are bringing great innovation, customibility, and stability, these are the things that i believe average users want; consequently, im going back to android (G2 when it comes) because it gave me these 3 things and more. just my opinion but WP7 may not be all what its cracked out to be.
Idocuments to go, and open office do the exact same thing as office mobile.
CSMR said:
Run Zune software on a corporate PC to sync your phone. I don't think so.
You're describing WM6.5, and hopefully WP8, but not WP7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well a lot of companies have allowed iTunes so that people can use iPhones so they will work out a way to use the Zune software.
Why would you need the Zune software? You can use exchange to sync and then sharepoint to share documents.
^16gb of data, yeah right.
vetvito said:
^16gb of data, yeah right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, you don't have to store music and videos on your corporate PC.
What about my 4gb powerpoint file?
vetvito said:
What about my 4gb powerpoint file?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I work with Powerpoint all the time, never seen a beast like that. I'd say you are doing something wrong.
That I'm limited to email and Sharepoint to get files on my phone though is a bummer.
Right now, you wouldn't really need the Zune client on your work PC as the only syncing that Zune does is media. If you do somehow have a 4GB ppt file (I dunno if WP7 would even support opening it) you'd be best off hopping on WiFi and grabbing it from sharepoint or something. I would really question any scenario where a 4GB ppt file would exist and even then, why you would need it on your phone.
vangrieg said:
I work with Powerpoint all the time, never seen a beast like that. I'd say you are doing something wrong.
That I'm limited to email and Sharepoint to get files on my phone though is a bummer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really hoping they have Office Web Apps/SkyDrive.
Doing something wrong? Embedding and linking files is wrong?
I and a lot of other people actually use all the features of Powerpoint. Including but not limited to adding our own videos, adding an entire website, music files, intro's, etc,etc...all laid out perfectly on slides that make a point.
WM open these files with ease, a lot files just didn't play in the pp on the mobile version though.
RustyGrom said:
Really hoping they have Office Web Apps/SkyDrive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would be great but that scenario isn't supported. There is a workaround though - you can download files from web in IE as far as I know, and thus can have a web server set up on your PC that will let you transfer files directly, or upload them to Skydrive and then download "manually" from there. But that would be a pain for 4GB files anyway.
vetvito said:
Doing something wrong? Embedding and linking files is wrong?
I and a lot of other people actually use all the features of Powerpoint. Including but not limited to adding our own videos, adding an entire website, music files, intro's, etc,etc...all laid out perfectly on slides that make a point.
WM open these files with ease, a lot files just didn't play in the pp on the mobile version though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't like not having the USB storage functionality either. One of the things that irks me about the direction of wp7. Unlike multitasking and c&p, I don't think this one is coming unless there's alot of fuss about it (which I doubt is going to happen from the general consumer).
But it does seem very odd to have a 4gb presentation. You're supposed to be using the slides as a visual guide not some kind of data storage. Why would you embed the video into the presentation rather than just being a link? And why would you need to transfer some big video to the phone if you're just working on the ppt?
For remote control presentation. Plus I don't have to look at the presentation screen.
Click to play or play at entrance is much better than a simple link. It follows suit with the entire presentation. This is just my opinion though.
awechris said:
Android has no business functionability ?
Give me a break ! I've been a windows mobile user over 10 years and all I got was breaking my nerves and endless waits for basic functionability !!! I can do miracles blazing fast with android and I am never going back to windows platform again. I guess u didn't 'play' with Android enough.
My office is always in my pocket and syncs with my Linux laptop and windows desktop over the air perfectly and on an instant. And guess what ? I never need to reboot my android phone! Neither I wait 5 secs for the phone panel to come up whenever I want to dial. I had so many windows mobile devices (first was Jornada 720 in 1997 and last was HTC touch pro). All were crawling and I could do far less from what I can do with my Android phone.
Sent from Phone btw (HTC desire)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
blaze7810 said:
i dont want to bash windows i really dont because i used them for awhile; however, windows 6.5 and previous version didnt work well. i restarted countless times with my TP2. it became such a hassle that after awhile i try to use the lightest custom roms just to do texting and calls and still i freeze and restart. seeing that things may be different with WP7 but i spent enough money on something for many years that didnt do a great job on there OS, shot, i think the Symbian OS did a better job. there are other OS sellers that are bringing great innovation, customibility, and stability, these are the things that i believe average users want; consequently, im going back to android (G2 when it comes) because it gave me these 3 things and more. just my opinion but WP7 may not be all what its cracked out to be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Using Windows 6.5 (and previous versions...) as evidence of how "terrible" WP7 is going to be is not really a logical way of thinking... Of course the new OS is going to have some similarities to the old versions but the smoothness with which the WP7 OS runs can't be compared to Windows mobile 6.5. Also, to awechris, I really don't see how syncing your cellphone to your Linux laptop makes it a "great" business phone. Do you know about some obscure android office package that I don't know about? Because to me a business phone in the modern world without access to some sort of Word, Powerpoint, and Excel application, is not a businessphone at all. I want to be able to write a report while sitting on the beach (with a physical keyboard), and that is something that WP7 will be able to offer me in the near future.
blaiz123 said:
Using Windows 6.5 (and previous versions...) as evidence of how "terrible" WP7 is going to be is not really a logical way of thinking... Of course the new OS is going to have some similarities to the old versions but the smoothness with which the WP7 OS runs can't be compared to Windows mobile 6.5. Also, to awechris, I really don't see how syncing your cellphone to your Linux laptop makes it a "great" business phone. Do you know about some obscure android office package that I don't know about? Because to me a business phone in the modern world without access to some sort of Word, Powerpoint, and Excel application, is not a businessphone at all. I want to be able to write a report while sitting on the beach (with a physical keyboard), and that is something that WP7 will be able to offer me in the near future.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
<sarcasm>You all have it wrong! I can just make calls from my Netbook via Google Voice and edit all the powerpoints the way they were meant to be edited! </sarcasm>
Security is an important aspect of anything that gets used by anyone, at any given moment around the world. For developers of applications that get purchased through a digital storefront, like Microsoft’s Windows Phone 7 Marketplace, making sure that it’s not easy, next to impossible in fact, to steal apps and put them on a device free-of-charge is just as important. But, as WPCentral reports, it looks like the Digital Rights Management (DRM) security tools set in place by Microsoft have been cracked!
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
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Fortunately, though, the program that is being used to do so is not known to the general public. In point of fact, the “white hat” developer that created it is just showing it as a proof of concept. If the program were to make it out into the world, then it would be possible for some people out there to strip the DRM from applications available in the Windows Phone 7 Marketplace, and then download them for free.
As of the time of this writing, Microsoft hasn’t made an official comment regarding the security hole. WPCentral has been in contact with Brandon Watson from Microsoft, but so far they have not heard back from him. The video demonstrating the proof of concept program making short work of DRM for the Windows Phone 7 applications can be viewed below.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=flqB9WCkGiQ
The depressing thing is it's so disturbingly easy. I stumbled on it getting HTC Apps to work on my Samsung, and it's far too easy. I think it'll probably be a matter of time before piracy becomes public on WP7, so to speak.
And for any doubters as to whether it is genuine (seen a few in my travels) - It works. A paid-for, commercial application running in the Windows Phone 7 emulator, after being deployed from a cracked XAP.
Still, it's good to see that WP7 seems to attract the sort of user that isn't a rabid pirate. Despite the ground being laid for some time, and despite people having independently developed methods of piracy, No-one has yet put such information into the public domain, seeking a way of solving the problems, rather than exploiting them.
Microsoft have made an official comment, by email to every developer, on the 16th November, titled "Windows Phone 7 App Protection". It included a white paper on the topic which pretty much said it was easy to steal apps but was a limited risk because of a developer unlocked phone is needed, a limit to how many side loaded apps, basically a couple of steps which would turn off the casual pirate.
I suppose what's new here is a simple one click tool that exploits MS's oversight in this statement: "all signed applications on an unlocked phone still require a license acquired through Marketplace to run". Basically they didn't realise that if you strip the signature, no license is required.
Another thing is they shouldn't have made paid apps on unsecured URLs, they should have put more effort into a secure download system like Apple or pretty much anyone else has.
I guess the main problem, that was a fatal flaw in the design of the platform, is they don't allow native apps only .NET apps, which means almost every single app available can easily be decompiled back to source form. It's a much bigger problem if other developers can steal your code than a few users stealing your app. It's for this reason WP7 can't be taken seriously as a development platform. Oh also it means 3rd party apps launch too slow compared to the built in ones, 1 minute to launch Tetris what a joke.
If you could somehow exclude the paid apps from this "FreeMarketplace" it would be really helpful for people who live in countries where the marketplace isn't as good content wise as in the usa.
That way everyone could download those free apps without the region problems.
These are just my thoughts on this. I'm not a developer or anything so I don't really know if this is actually possible without hurting the developers in any way.
indiekiduk said:
Microsoft have made an official comment, by email to every developer, on the 16th November, titled "Windows Phone 7 App Protection". It included a white paper on the topic which pretty much said it was easy to steal apps but was a limited risk because of a developer unlocked phone is needed, a limit to how many side loaded apps, basically a couple of steps which would turn off the casual pirate.
I suppose what's new here is a simple one click tool that exploits MS's oversight in this statement: "all signed applications on an unlocked phone still require a license acquired through Marketplace to run". Basically they didn't realise that if you strip the signature, no license is required.
Another thing is they shouldn't have made paid apps on unsecured URLs, they should have put more effort into a secure download system like Apple or pretty much anyone else has.
I guess the main problem, that was a fatal flaw in the design of the platform, is they don't allow native apps only .NET apps, which means almost every single app available can easily be decompiled back to source form. It's a much bigger problem if other developers can steal your code than a few users stealing your app. It's for this reason WP7 can't be taken seriously as a development platform. Oh also it means 3rd party apps launch too slow compared to the built in ones, 1 minute to launch Tetris what a joke.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You still need a dev unlocked device to sideload the cracked apps. Chevron7 doesn't really do the job as the phone relocks itself every week? which gets a bit annoying and might put people off, and also delete all the sideloaded apps with it. Imagine that, all your save games, app settings and history being reset every week.
Unless someone improves on Chevron7 I don't think piracy is much of a danger.
thats a great revolution, wp is now jailbreaked )) have funnn
digger1985 said:
You still need a dev unlocked device to sideload the cracked apps. Chevron7 doesn't really do the job as the phone relocks itself every week? which gets a bit annoying and might put people off, and also delete all the sideloaded apps with it. Imagine that, all your save games, app settings and history being reset every week.
Unless someone improves on Chevron7 I don't think piracy is much of a danger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it relocks, it doesn't delete any sideloaded apps, it just prompts you to uninstall when you attempt to run them (though you can escape from the prompt of course). Also, you can avoid it relocking by putting the phone in Flight Mode before syncing.
hounsell said:
I stumbled on it getting HTC Apps to work on my Samsung, and it's far too easy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
THAT is very useful. Sharing HTC, LG and Samsung oem apps across platforms should be allowed.
hounsell said:
If it relocks, it doesn't delete any sideloaded apps, it just prompts you to uninstall when you attempt to run them (though you can escape from the prompt of course). Also, you can avoid it relocking by putting the phone in Flight Mode before syncing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Any chance of sharing the (Free) HTC Youtube app? That's the only I desire desperately.
This "proof of concept" shows only one thing (according to youtube video) - guys intercepted search requests from Zune, parse the responce and make a simple app to duplicate Zune's functionality. Anyone who can spend 30 minutes to WireShark and couple hours for coding can do the same app (actually, I've already posted a direct URL's to the marketplace apps on this forum).
As far as I understand, that's it, nothing more. No DRM crack, no "apps cracked", no "security hole" - just nothing!
As for .NET apps vulnerability: does anybody here have an experience to disassemble and compile back a really complicated and large application, obfuscated by the latest commercial version of Dotfuscator (actually, the wp7 devs can obtain it for free until March 2011)? I've tried once (of course I'm not a "some hat - white or black, just a pro developer)... Results are negative. In theory it's possible but... We saw a lot (no, A LOT!) of commercial native apps for win32, mac etc. successfully cracked and hacked. Just visit any pirate tracker for proof. So, it's not a "big .NET problem".
digger1985 said:
Any chance of sharing the (Free) HTC Youtube app? That's the only I desire desperately.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Without real hack (hacking license verification etc.) it's not possible. Simple downloader described here as "WP7 ultimate crack" can't help. If you want you may search my posts here, I've already posted direct link to HTC's youtube xap...
I think it's real.
Another guy also did the same
http://forums.create.msdn.com/forums/t/70704.aspx
He cracked an app on request and loaded into the emulator.
sensboston said:
Without real hack (hacking license verification etc.) it's not possible. Simple downloader described here as "WP7 ultimate crack" can't help. If you want you may search my posts here, I've already posted direct link to HTC's youtube xap...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe Hounsell managed to run the HTC stocks app on a Samsung
http://www.neowin.net/news/htc-wp7-app-ported-to-other-wp7-hardware
digger1985 said:
I think it's real
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Real what? Read my post above... If someone "hacked" non-obfuscated small application by removing or blocking IsTrial() requests, it's not a real hack.
Ask this guy to "hack" NeedForSpeed Undercover ;-)
sensboston said:
As for .NET apps vulnerability: does anybody here have an experience to disassemble and compile back a really complicated and large application, obfuscated by the latest commercial version of Dotfuscator (actually, the wp7 devs can obtain it for free until March 2011)? I've tried once (of course I'm not a "some hat - white or black, just a pro developer)... Results are negative. In theory it's possible but... We saw a lot (no, A LOT!) of commercial native apps for win32, mac etc. successfully cracked and hacked. Just visit any pirate tracker for proof. So, it's not a "big .NET problem".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You didn't see any source code for commercial native apps because there are no automatic tools that do it, but you can see source code for all WP7 apps, using a free utility called Reflector. You choose the app, and it generates a visual studio project containing the code, simple as that.
In my experience developers don't readily use .NET obfuscators because they generally introduce instability which leads to increased development time.
indiekiduk said:
You didn't see any source code for commercial native apps because there are no automatic tools that do it, but you can see source code for all WP7 apps, using a free utility called Reflector.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Huh? HexRays has an ARM decompiler which can produce readable C. It is possible to get back to similar to the source equivalent (with a lot of manual tweaking). If MS used a strong packer on the native code then it would make reversing it much harder/time consuming. At the end of the day it still needs to execute.
I've used .NET Reflector for years (and I do have another one, for Java/.NET written by my friend - sorry, can't announce it here).
My question is: have you ever tried to disassemble and re-assemble big, obfuscated application? Or you just theorizing? I did, and it's very complicated/not possible (at least by using Reflector tool only). This method is good for small non-obfuscated application only.
For the topic: here is my "proof of concept"
- use this url to browse Zune market for apps:
http://catalog.zune.net/v3.2/en-US/apps?q=Ebook Reader&clientType=WinMobile 7.0&store=zest
replace Ebook%20Reader to any your search term, don't exactly know about "store" field and en-US. You'll get an XML in response with found apps info.
To get an app full download url, I believe, you'll need some additional requests but I don't have time (and interest!) now to play with Wireshark and track Zune's and WP marketplace requests...
sensboston said:
This "proof of concept" shows only one thing (according to youtube video) - guys intercepted search requests from Zune, parse the responce and make a simple app to duplicate Zune's functionality. Anyone who can spend 30 minutes to WireShark and couple hours for coding can do the same app (actually, I've already posted a direct URL's to the marketplace apps on this forum)
As for .NET apps vulnerability: does anybody here have an experience to disassemble and compile back a really complicated and large application, obfuscated by the latest commercial version of Dotfuscator (actually, the wp7 devs can obtain it for free until March 2011)? I've tried once (of course I'm not a "some hat - white or black, just a pro developer)... Results are negative.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? You should be able to decompile it and recomplie it with Reflector though, right? Even if the actual meaning of the code is hard to deduce after that point.....The CIL is stack-based, so you should be able to break it up into functions if nothing else.....
sensboston said:
This "proof of concept" shows only one thing (according to youtube video) - guys intercepted search requests from Zune, parse the responce and make a simple app to duplicate Zune's functionality. Anyone who can spend 30 minutes to WireShark and couple hours for coding can do the same app (actually, I've already posted a direct URL's to the marketplace apps on this forum)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ya, this guy is lame. Let's ignore him and get back to work getting real stuff done.
n0psl3d said:
It is possible to get back to similar to the source equivalent (with a lot of manual tweaking) ... At the end of the day it still needs to execute.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This ^^
Reflector is great, but it's not a one-stop-recompile-shop. It still takes a massive amount of restructuring to get even an un-obfuscated application back together.
Also, WP7 business logic is almost always in the cloud. For 90% of applications, XAPs are basically just UIs - especially with the intense restrictions imposed on development right now.
digger1985 said:
Any chance of sharing the (Free) HTC Youtube app? That's the only I desire desperately.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've got it running, but it doesn't function at the moment because HTC decided to use their own native functions tied to their driver, rather than the inbuilt .NET classes. All the network requests the app makes fails. Thinking of possible ways round this, but it would probably end up being so much work, it might just be quicker to create a clone.
Blade0rz said:
This ^^
Reflector is great, but it's not a one-stop-recompile-shop. It still takes a massive amount of restructuring to get even an un-obfuscated application back together.
Also, WP7 business logic is almost always in the cloud. For 90% of applications, XAPs are basically just UIs - especially with the intense restrictions imposed on development right now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This. Reverse-engineering, and even modifying an existing app is one thing in Reflector, but copy/pasting code will never work in large quantities, it's just not that accurate in my experience. So sure, your tips and tricks might not be safe, but your app as a whole isn't going to be just duplicated and reuploaded to the marketplace.
Of course, "cracked" for piracy is a whole other matter.
according to microsoft, windows8 will be for phones, desktops, tablets, everywhere windows lives now. after watching 3-4 demos on youtube there are a few things that makes me wonder about:
1 filesystem access - it shows the table accessing a usb stick and drag/drop copying
2 explorer (the file explorer)
3 full desktop shell as an app
4 wireless status as a widget
5 a much more customizable 'home' or whatever its being called now
if you've seen the videos, or had your hands on one - what do you think the possibilities are for wp7 evolving into a full blown OS like what is being demo'd as windows8 ?
do you think wp8 will be a registry restricted (mild restriction to prevent confusion) version of windows 8 ?
would you be interested in a full blown (non-phone specific) wp8 handset, essentially a desktop in your pocket, able to use a keyboard and mouse with ?
is the tablet version (form factor) more appealing as a full OS, instead of a phone (form factor) to you ?
^ why ?
hmmm
...I believe that a lot of peoples are having problems to understand:
- WP7x is the OS for smart phones
- Windows 8 is the OS for tabletts and desktop PCs with the possibility to interact - but only to a certain extend - with WP7x It definitely won't replace WP7x. and the features you are mentioning will not be build into WP7x. At least not for the time being or if so, only via some homebrews by our xda-developers friends..
Yeah the OP got somethings wrong there. This is what MS envisions:
Phone: Windows Phone 7/8
Xbox: Xbox metro dashboard (coming this fall)
PCs (including desktops, laptops, slates/tablets etc.): Windows 8
What Windows Phone 7/8 and Windows 8 will have in common is probably the way apps are written (at least C# or VB + XAML) and the interactivity using SkyDrive.
Windows 8 will of course things like File access and the traditional desktop, but WP will not and there is no need to do so.
A phone should stay a phone and a PC should stay a PC.
Sent from my GT-I5800 using XDA App
FTC said:
...I believe that a lot of peoples are having problems to understand:
- WP7x is the OS for smart phones
- Windows 8 is the OS for tabletts and desktop PCs with the possibility to interact - but only to a certain extend - with WP7x It definitely won't replace WP7x. and the features you are mentioning will not be build into WP7x. At least not for the time being or if so, only via some homebrews by our xda-developers friends..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is correct.
slimshady322 said:
Yeah the OP got somethings wrong there. This is what MS envisions:
Phone: Windows Phone 7/8
Xbox: Xbox metro dashboard (coming this fall)
PCs (including desktops, laptops, slates/tablets etc.): Windows 8
What Windows Phone 7/8 and Windows 8 will have in common is probably the way apps are written (at least C# or VB + XAML) and the interactivity using SkyDrive.
Windows 8 will of course things like File access and the traditional desktop, but WP will not and there is no need to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm, do you have any links for future reading ? (Thanks used)
Based on what I've read, I don't think the OP has really missed anything, but may have misinterpreted the timetable. Even Paul Thurrott has made that same speculation.
Microsoft is planning to have a single ecosystem for all platforms (including phones). They have stated as much. Whether they will "get there" with Windows 8 is doubtful, but they will get there.
One common speculation is that, as a first step toward ecosystem unification, Windows 8 will be able to run any WP7 app (and, presumably, some Windows 8 apps will also run on phones).
I don't really have any links, but it seems obvious that MS is trying to get their metro interface into all their devices (Xbox, PC and phone). The similarities should be striking.
As others have said, Windows 8 will not be on phones, but their will be things shared for example with SkyDrive, you can upload your photos from WP7 and you can also directly view photos from SkyDrive (and other locations) on Windows 8. Xbox uses SkyDrive to save game files etc.
I personally doubt that Windows Phone 7 app will run on Windows 8. If you look at the current developer tools, there are a lot of differences between WP7 and Windows 8. Yes, they both can use C# + XAML so you can share code, but you will have to do device specific changes.
MS might make this easier in the future but some adjustments will probably have to be made. If they simply made some kind of WP7 emulator for Windows 8, things would not fit the entire screen and you might see too many pixels.
And finally, yes I have also heard the rumor that MS wants to have one OS for all devices: the PC (including tablets), the Xbox and phones.
However, this is still far off and will not be coming in Windows 8 or Windows Phone 8 (Apollo). It has been rumored to be the masterplan for way ahead (like 2016 with Windows 9, Windows Phone 9 and the third Xbox (however these things will be called)).
But what works right now are all the live services. For example I could add a contact on my WP7 and then have their numbers etc. available on my Windows 8 slate without the need to manually transfer the contact over.
I would love the OP's dream come true but I don't think so. It doesn't look like WP8 will go Android route (but what do we know in the end).
There are enough people in MS industry thinking better what users want than users themselves and claiming that a phone should be dumb enough.
What I see from Windows 8 previews I'd say it can be amazing OS anyway.
slimshady322 said:
I personally doubt that Windows Phone 7 app will run on Windows 8. If you look at the current developer tools, there are a lot of differences between WP7 and Windows 8. Yes, they both can use C# + XAML so you can share code, but you will have to do device specific changes.
MS might make this easier in the future but some adjustments will probably have to be made. If they simply made some kind of WP7 emulator for Windows 8, things would not fit the entire screen and you might see too many pixels.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Building a wp7 emulator into Windows 8 would not be that difficult. Running a WP7 app could create a rectangle in the center of the screen that matches the dimensions of a WP7 device, and darkens the remaining screen while the app has focus.
slimshady322 said:
And finally, yes I have also heard the rumor that MS wants to have one OS for all devices: the PC (including tablets), the Xbox and phones.
However, this is still far off and will not be coming in Windows 8 or Windows Phone 8 (Apollo). It has been rumored to be the masterplan for way ahead (like 2016 with Windows 9, Windows Phone 9 and the third Xbox (however these things will be called)).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is kind of what I was thinking too. Not for Windows 8, but very likely for Windows 9 (or maybe they could accomplish it in a ".5" release, but I doubt that).
The point is, assuming WP7 survives the next few years (which is looking much better as Mango gets closer), there will be a time when Microsoft has a single OS that spans all devices.
RoboDad said:
Building a wp7 emulator into Windows 8 would not be that difficult. Running a WP7 app could create a rectangle in the center of the screen that matches the dimensions of a WP7 device, and darkens the remaining screen while the app has focus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it would work but it would be just like iPhone Apps on the iPad, webOS phone apps on the Touchpad or android phone apps on an android tablet.
Working, but not looking very good.
I have currently one app in the windows phone marketplace and I would like to bring it to Windows 8 as well but I will do some adjustments. Just one example:
Many apps feature lists that are scrollable vertically (like the contacts list). Tapping on one item opens up another page with details.
On the phone this works fine, but on Windows 8 there would be a couple of problems:
1) Windows 8 rather has lists that you scroll horizontally (the new Grid View in the developer tools)
2) You would waste a lot of screen space. A better solution would be to have a split view with the list on the left and the details on the right. Thus, the list would stay visible.
Acutally when writing about this I though of a very good example: the settings in WP7 and Windows 8.
WP7:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
A list of the different things you can scroll and tapping brings you to the selected item (as seen on the right)
Windows 8:
The list is only on the left and you can still see the list while opening up single item.
TL;DR: Basically what I want to say is that while WP7 app might work on Windows 8, it would be better if developers for Windows 8 (and there are many) were to adjust their apps to make them work better on Windows 8.
I don't think Windows 8 needs WP7 apps, many apps will probably be ported and adjustments will be made and there will be many Windows 8 developers that did not develop for WP7.
RoboDad said:
That is kind of what I was thinking too. Not for Windows 8, but very likely for Windows 9 (or maybe they could accomplish it in a ".5" release, but I doubt that).
The point is, assuming WP7 survives the next few years (which is looking much better as Mango gets closer), there will be a time when Microsoft has a single OS that spans all devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would really like MS to do this, but is has to be done good and not the way webOS or Android did it.
One app could then be written for all devices and all the app would have to do is adjust itself according to screen size. You could share most code for all version and only have some layout changes that depend on the resolution.
We can dream, but MS has been screaming the same story for over a decade.
The touch optimized part (basically "what looks like wp7 atm) of Win8 will be on tablets, pcs and phones. While the non-touch optimized part will be exclusive to pcs.
Microsoft, why do you care so much that we're running desktop applications on our Surfaces? It's clear that you put a ton of effort into RT 8.1's lockdown.
We're running desktop applications because we like your device. We're giving your device added value. People have been avoiding Surface RT because it can't run most programs they love, and we're trying to alleviate that.
I know that you're reading this forum, and that this will all on deaf ears. But I have to try.
Help over here too. If we get a lot of people to rant. They would have to listen..
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...ommunity/4c6c2e37-fdca-496f-a40a-158062b533da
Making my paragraph lol.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
A lot of people dont understand the finality of Windows RT.
RT is jusy like Android or iOS, a tablet OS not a desktop OS. For x86 applications, use a W8 tablet with x86 architecture.
Personnaly on my PC i use a lot the desktop, on my Surface i only use ModernUI, it's made for, fast and clean.
Caramel said:
A lot of people dont understand the finality of Windows RT.
RT is jusy like Android or iOS, a tablet OS not a desktop OS. For x86 applications, use a W8 tablet with x86 architecture.
Personnaly on my PC i use a lot the desktop, on my Surface i only use ModernUI, it's made for, fast and clean.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RT is far closer to Windows 8 than to Android or iOS. Android and iOS don't have huge chunks of API and features that are flat out locked out seemingly for product tier purposes.
Comparing RT and iOS/Android is comparing apples and oranges, it just doesn't work.
Possibly even more to the point, Android - notably, the most successful mobile OS on the planet, by a long shot - not only supports arbitrary code and (frequently) rooting, custom OSes, etc, it also supports doing things like chrooting to a (more traditional) Linux environment.
Microsoft has managed to create something that is most of a desktop OS, and yet is arguably *more* locked down than the most popular mobile OS. I do not understand why they would have chosen to do this, or why, after we managed to defeat much of the lockdown, they decided it was worth developer and tester time to re-instate it...
EDIT: Hell, this is an opportunity for Microsoft to achive some positive market differentiation with regard to Apple. Apple is constantly re-locking iOS, breaking jailbreaks as fast as they can. Microsoft is in a great position here to say "while we lock the OS down by default on RT to ensure the best possible security and user experience, we also welcome the tinkerers who are enthusiastic about the Windows platform and desire a deeper level of access." or something similar. Position themselves, and Windows RT, as the OS option that won't turn around and bite its most enthusiastic fans on the ass.
#SurfaceHasNoPurpose
Unlock the Surface!
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
xWolf13 said:
#SurfaceHasNoPurpose
Unlock the Surface!
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
don't you mean unlock windows RT? There are more RT devices than just the surface RT and there are 2 surfaces of which only 1 is locked...
SixSixSevenSeven said:
don't you mean unlock windows RT? There are more RT devices than just the surface RT and there are 2 surfaces of which only 1 is locked...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ehh. Yeah lol
Caramel said:
A lot of people dont understand the finality of Windows RT.
RT is jusy like Android or iOS, a tablet OS not a desktop OS. For x86 applications, use a W8 tablet with x86 architecture.
Personnaly on my PC i use a lot the desktop, on my Surface i only use ModernUI, it's made for, fast and clean.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes.. 100% correct. I wouldn't say MS "locked out" anything from RT.. They just didn't port it. And with good reason.. RT has a targeted set of use cases so it doesnt make much sense for them to port over things that a fraction of the RT audience would use. Full "thick" apps are legacy and I feel like the desktop will be gone once its legacy requirements are for certain apps. Remember, RT isn't just a recompile of windows for ARM.. It was an entire kernel level and up overhaul from win32 that they made to look like traditional win8. Sure, some code/runtime libraries may have been ported over but certain components (e.g. domain support/netlogon) probably have deep ties into the kernel and other parts of the OS that just didn't make sense to support, so greying out a button in the UI was a quick fix.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
libbycm said:
Yes.. 100% correct. I wouldn't say MS "locked out" anything from RT.. They just didn't port it. And with good reason.. RT has a targeted set of use cases so it doesnt make much sense for them to port over things that a fraction of the RT audience would use. Full "thick" apps are legacy and I feel like the desktop will be gone once its legacy requirements are for certain apps. Remember, RT isn't just a recompile of windows for ARM.. It was an entire kernel level and up overhaul from win32 that they made to look like traditional win8. Sure, some code/runtime libraries may have been ported over but certain components (e.g. domain support/netlogon) probably have deep ties into the kernel and other parts of the OS that just didn't make sense to support, so greying out a button in the UI was a quick fix.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RT is essentially a direct port of Windows 8. The only notable thing it doesn't have is full DirectX or OpenGL. It's not an overhaul, it is quite literally just a recompile targeting ARM.
The reason it doesn't have domain support is because it's running at the level of a home basic copy. There are hacks to get the tablet to join a domain, and they've been discussed here (in fact, I believe that mamaich was the one to get them to work originally)
Don't spout a bunch of crap unless you actually know what you're talking about.
Myriachan said:
Microsoft, why do you care so much that we're running desktop applications on our Surfaces? It's clear that you put a ton of effort into RT 8.1's lockdown.
We're running desktop applications because we like your device. We're giving your device added value. People have been avoiding Surface RT because it can't run most programs they love, and we're trying to alleviate that.
I know that you're reading this forum, and that this will all on deaf ears. But I have to try.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When it comes to pure productivity, Desktop is better than Modern-UI, because it's apps are suited for precision input devices. That's why Photoshop works so well on Surface Pro and Office 2013 works well on our Surface RTs- when it comes to work, we use our cover keyboards and toucpads/mice and get the job done. I do think that there should be some more openness about the RT Desktop so that users could install simple Desktop tools to accompany this productive side of Windows 8 - the Desktop, like WinRAR (I don't like being taken to touch friendly UI when I work with files, and I prefer drag & drop while doing so anyway) and, perhaps, something like Photoshop Elements. Of course, Desktop app selection could be limited to what Ms approves via Store, but I just think that Desktop is not a thing to be gotten rid of, like some of you would prefer. I think it is to be embraced as an environment of sit-down productivity, and allowing some baby apps to run on our RTs would only be a good thing.
Desktop computer "sit-down productivity" professionals, on the other hand, should have an option of classic Start menu available, but that's a different topic.
I truly don't understand the obsession with "classic Start menu" - from a productivity standpoint, the 8.1 Start screen is just as good as the Win7 Start menu; you hit the Windows button, type a few letters, and hit Enter (8.0 isn't *quite* as good because results are segregated into "Apps" and "Settings" and it takes a lot of extra keystrokes to move between them). With that said, you'll note that one of the desktop apps for RT 8.0 is the open-source ClassicStartMenu...
Myriachan said:
Microsoft, why do you care so much that we're running desktop applications on our Surfaces? It's clear that you put a ton of effort into RT 8.1's lockdown.
We're running desktop applications because we like your device. We're giving your device added value. People have been avoiding Surface RT because it can't run most programs they love, and we're trying to alleviate that.
I know that you're reading this forum, and that this will all on deaf ears. But I have to try.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't want Microsoft to "leave the RT hacking community alone." I want them to openly support it. I want Microsoft to open up the ARM desktop to third party apps, including unsigned user generated content.
Let's face it: RT has barely made a dent in the market place and what enthusiasm third party hardware manufacturers may have had for the platform is quickly drying up. The Windows Store is a barren wasteland compared to the Apple App market or the Google Play store. Open up the desktop to developers and you'll see a bunch of popular and niche, open source projects ported to the platform. It would add tremendous value to the ARM architecture.
I recently got an RT tablet very cheaply thanks to a hookup who attended a Microsoft conference. It was my first real experience with Windows 8 and I found that it exceeded all my expectations except for two areas: a lack of Metro apps, and the inability to install third party desktop apps.
Having a machine with a fully functional desktop environment but not being able to install additional desktop applications is a bit like being allowed to chew your food but not swallow it.
I do hope someone from Microsoft is listening, and pays heed, because for me, at least, my Surface RT will likely be my last RT device if the desktop remains locked down.
dsf3g said:
I don't want Microsoft to "leave the RT hacking community alone." I want them to openly support it. I want Microsoft to open up the ARM desktop to third party apps, including unsigned user generated content.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This would also be an acceptable solution =) They could add a BIOS option to change the Secure Boot policy GUID, with appropriate visible warnings about how the ability to run non-Windows Store applications also potentially opens up your system to malware.
Their current policy is very much, "oh this nice Windows 8 desktop environment... that's just for us, sorry".
If they'd allow desktop applications on the Windows Store, that'd also be nice.
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
Deusdies said:
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well if its for your criteria of a full Desktop you are right - you can't do this with Windows RT, thus with no RT tablet. But as im using my Surface as a thin client, remoting my home pc or my server for all the stuff i can't do on my tablet it's quite wonderful. And the Windows Store has been incresing ever since, last week i reset me tablet and did some serious store browsing to get up to date with available apps and i probably couldn't find anthing that's not there - development environment and compilers excluded of course. But as far as i can see - not knowing your area of expertise - there is everything you would need to get a basic start, though some apps will cost a dollar/euro or two. Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
As for the Nokia 2520, it definitely looks good! Haven't actually seen this one come up, looks promising.
To sum it up: if what you like is the new Modern UI interface you can definitely go with an RT tablet for there are plenty of apps available. For the desktop that's a whole other story, as I've described (jailbreak/ported apps) - if you are willing to compromise, you will get another added benefit from this cool piece of hard- and software.
The decision which RT tablet to use should be yours i guess, there are quite a few out there, but in a matter of usability I deem them all to work the same.
Greetings,
Fasin
The app market you can check out on your full windows 8 machine no problem. I do personally think its a bit limited.
Windows RT is for all intents and purposes windows 8 running on ARM instead of x86 processors. This does bring a few limitations, and then microsoft impose 2 more.
ARM and x86 processors are rather obviously not compatible. x86 programs cannot run on ARM and vice versa normally (you could emulate an ARM CPU on x86 and vice versa but thats slow).
Most "metro" apps are compiled in both ARM and x86 versions. There are a few which are not for whatever reason. But most should be available in both stores. The vast majority of metro apps use C# or VB.net anyway which dont output native ARM or x86 machine code and instead use .NET bytecode (the .NET runtime is present on both windows 8 and windows RT). VLC is the only major exception I can think of right now, although that hasn't been publicly released yet and ARM is planned (right now its x86 only).
Just about all desktop software for windows is x86. It won't run on ARM. If its open source it may be portable however the only compiler capable of targetting Windows RT is MSVC whereas alot of software can only be built in alternative compilers. There is a list (already linked in the post above) of software which people have managed to recompile for Windows RT.
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Whether the RT is suitable or not depends on your needs. If all your going to do is surf the web, well its full blown internet explorer 11 not some sucky mobile browser, it even has flash (but not java, which you should not confuse for javascript. However iOS and android dont have java either).
You get full RDP support in windows RT. So you can view the screen of and interact with your real windows 8 desktop remotely on the tablet. In the ported apps section for jailbroken devices there is also VNC which does the same thing but is cross platform unlike RDP which is supposed to just be windows (however there is an RDP server for linux too so if you have a linux machine, install the RDP server, remote access it on non jailbroken RT device no problem).
You get microsoft office. Its missing plugins and macros. But otherwise, its a full office suite. Its more than android or iOS have.
Being close enough to normal windows, you get a full file browser which supports network mapped drives and USB etc as you do on your desktop. Android can have file browsers, but they usually arent as good as a desktop file browser. iOS doesnt have a file browser at all.
With the file browser you have support for USB storage. Got some photos on a memory stick, plug it in, you can view them. iOS cannot do this. Some android phones can, some can't (your LG should be able to).
True there are not as many apps as iOS or android. But both iOS and android had low apps counts when they first released and according to what little public data there is, windows after 1 year is about on par with both android and iOS app counts after 1 year. It takes time (but will it take too long is a better question)
Thank you both very much. Very well thought out responses. I was debating between getting the Dell Venue 11 Pro (full Windows 8) or the Nokia 2520 being as that they're the same price, but I have honestly been convinced to get the RT version.
Fasin said:
Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh. My. Gott.
I had no idea that this even existed. I think this is pretty much what settles it - I'm definitely getting an RT. Notepad++? Python? 7-zip? Amazing! Vielen dank!
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
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You're right, that truly is an odd restriction. Perhaps they just want people to use Windows Store more and more? But from this thread it seems that Jailbreak "fixes" a lot of issues - and I didn't even know this existed until now (admittedly I wasn't into the Windows 8 on mobile devices a whole lot until now).
Yep, I think my only pseudo-concern is now gone. Thank you again both, and Nokia 2520 - here I come!
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
BestBuy will have Surface RT for $200 in Black Friday. I'd like to buy one since it is such cheap and I can play with some ARM Win32 programs.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
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I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
I've just read Engadget's review of Nokia 2520, which is overall positive. But I thought it would be much better than the Surface 2, and apparently (according to their review), it isn't. In fact, I thought it will have a better battery life, while in fact it has worse.
As a student I also get a 10% discount on Surface only, and I have a $25 Microsoft Store gift card that I got eons ago, so that brings the total cost for a Surface 2 down to ~$370, which is phenomenal.
It's still in between Nokia 2520 and Surface 2...
Deusdies said:
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
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To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
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I do program on a laptop with a 14" 1366*768 display. I have used much higher resolution displays though and it is certainly alot better.
ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
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Yep... I do all of my programming on a desktop. At work 3 monitors, at home 1, but 27". So, yes, tablet is just for movies, some games, etc.
It is possible to emulate some x86 programs on RT's ARM processor, however often it will be slow. Most desired programs won't run through emulation (including utorrent, VLC, Steam, etc)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
Rakeesh_j said:
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
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No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
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Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
Rakeesh_j said:
Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
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trying to start flamewars again...
SixSixSevenSeven said:
trying to start flamewars again...
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No, it's very much on topic. If the goal was to start a flame war, then the OP beat me to it a long time ago.
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
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Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
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I don't really see it that way. Just issue an 'oem unlock' command to the device and you're golden. RT devices however by design forbid doing anything like that.
That said, the ultimate limitation in RT comes from this: RT won't run any app unless MS explicitly greenlights it. A lot of the more interesting apps (to me anyways) are ones that companies like MS and in some circumstances even Google wish didn't exist at all, like ad blockers, being able to tether without carrier permission, etc. Even so, not all of these require root and there's nothing stopping you from using them on Android.
Rakeesh_j said:
Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
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Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
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Two things:
Comments I've heard from developers
And most importantly, Microsoft's own comments
SixSixSevenSeven said:
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
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That later bit is more of a reason to not want RT. Virtually every platform out there uses OpenGL. The number of devices that use directx exclusively make up such a small percentage of the marketplace that it almost may as well not even exist. Android wouldn't gain anything at all by having it (really, no developer out there has ever said "I'd port to Android if only it supported directx,") and it really hurts that RT/WP don't have it. For this reason, any developer who says that they'll only use DirectX is shooting themselves in the foot. Microsoft is doing exactly that - too many games developers said they probably wouldn't ever bother porting anything to RT/WP because they don't want to spend all of the money on porting because the revenue gained is almost guaranteed to not be worth it. Sure, some game engines now support it, but that doesn't solve the problem of backporting their own customizations and additions to the base engine.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
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That's probably because you missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with whether or not battlefield is an FPS. The point is that I've seen web browsers do more impressive things than RT apps. Battlefield is merely an example of why even Chrome is more valuable to me than RT.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
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You aren't telling me anything new here. Microsoft has done something similar more than once and we've already seen the results: It'll just go derelict and then eventually deprecated but still kept around.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if MS created an app store for win32 apps similar to what apple is doing with OSX. Their current store model is just a flat out knockoff of the ios app model (contrast to the play store model where each publisher is at their own discretion, and some people still wonder why android/play is by far more popular than the rest) so they may as well go all the way with it.