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Let me start by saying that this is just a moan thread, and I don't ask or expect that anything comes from it other than me getting something off my chest and seeing what others think.
I'm a very regular reader and contributor in the HD2 forum, as I have been for over a year now. I like the fact that it's such a busy forum as this obviously means we have a larger resource pool and get answers to issues a lot quicker than a more sparsely populated forum. There is, however, a down-side to this as well. More people does mean more help, but it also means more idiots.
Unfortunately, there's a growing gang of members in the HD2 forum that seem to thrive on posts such as...
"Search for the answer, *****"
or...
"Are you a total retard?"
Now I know that some people ask what a lot of us feel are dumb questions, and a LOT of people are guilty of posting questions without searching thoroughly first, therefore repeating threads, but it seems to be becoming a sport to deal with them with stronger and stronger animosity.
I personally have been guilty of posting "This is the wrong forum" or "This has been answered - please search", but the recent number of similar posts has made me rethink the situation.
First of all, just insulting someone is point-blank out-of-order, and I usually tend to report such posts and hope the mods agree and deal with the individual in question. So that's that done. Now we're left with the "already answered" posts.
This is all hypothetical, so don't do the following search and tell me I was wrong, okay
Say I searched for "bluetooth android not working" and didn't find anything that suited my situation and decided to open a thread. I start one called "bluetooth android not working" and explain my problem. UserXXX comes along and says "This has been answer like a million times. Use the search function"
Now let's go 2 weeks into the future when someone else has the exact same problem. They type into the search "bluetooth android not working" and they find my thread. "Great!" they think, till they read the thread. It's of no use to them whatsoever. So they start a new thread. Guess what - UserXXX comes along and says "This has been answered a million times! I'm getting sick of telling people to search!!!"
This happens every 2 weeks, with different users having the same problems and not finding a solution, therefore posting a new thread.
Okay. Here I have to say that none of the above users searched well enough - that is a valid point, and cannot be changed. By the time they start a new thread it's too late to simply tell them this.
But now, 6 months down the line, we have 12 threads that are titled "bluetooth android not working", and not one of them has an actual answer in it. By this point, the forum is becoming pretty pointless.
All it would take is for Mr.Genius-at-searching UserXXX to have searched, as he claims is easy to do, find a link and then post whatever he wants, with the link at the end of it...
"Here's a link, you **** tard. Learn to search. I can do it, so I have the right to tell you to do it. Want proof I can search? Here it is...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/noonardfoundananswer.php"
Basically, people giving it "do a search if you want answers" should help out new users in doing so. Do a search and maybe tell them what your search criteria was. Maybe they didn't know what NAND was when they were asking about flashing Android to replace WM6.5. Maybe they misspelt "blootueth". They need help, not an arrogant waste of space that generates just as much garbage post in the forum, but with an added side-dish of anger.
Finally, I know that we shouldn't spoon-feed people, as they will never learn to do things themselves. What I am suggesting is that if someone knows how to do something and they find someone who clearly doesn't, then they should help them, rather than just act like an idiot.
Phew. Rant over
Edit: Incidentally, apologies to those who've pointed out that it's not just the HD2 forums that are like this. I didn't mean to imply that they're the only place it happens. I just can't talk from experience for any of the other forums.
Completely agree.
This is something I try to do now (having flamed and abused in the past ) for the reasons you have stated above.
Take this post for example, I even provided a link.
Why goto the effort of answering a post if you are not going to provide an answer.
As for "don't ask or expect that anything comes from it". I would hope others who don't provide usfull replies read this and take something away from it.
Dave
DaveShaw said:
Completely agree.
This is something I try to do now (having flamed and abused in the past ) for the reasons you have stated above.
Take this post for example, I even provided a link.
Why goto the effort of answering a post if you are not going to provide an answer.
As for "don't ask or expect that anything comes from it". I would hope others who don't provide usfull replies read this and take something away from it.
Dave
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Thanks for the comments Dave. Glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks like this.
I do get abrupt with people but I also help alot, hence why I have 50 thanks.
I really do not mind helping people but what I cant stand is lazyness. Its one thing been new to teh subject and not knowing something and then asking for help but its another to simply not even bother checking a forum stickies or at least doing a simple search before creating a topic that has already been created.
On some occasions its because the subject is a hard one to search and filter out but on allot of occasions you know its simply because they have not bothered and thought they would just create a topic and let other people do work for them, That is what I cant stand.
Although I have stopped been really abrupt I will still not answer these people but instead choose to make sure they are aware that its not on.
Yes you can say that we was all new once and some people need their arse wiping for them but that is absolutely no excuse. When I first joined this forum I did allot of reading and learned allot of stuff in process, some info I didnt need at the time but later helped me with other stuff and resulted in me not needing to clone topics or ask questions that have already been asked and answered.
Completely agree with what the OP is trying to say.
TheATHEiST said:
I do get abrupt with people but I also help alot, hence why I have 50 thanks.
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Are the from people you helped, or from people who liked your quips? (j/k)
TheATHEiST said:
Yes you can say that we was all new once and some people need their arse wiping for them but that is absolutely no excuse. When I first joined this forum I did allot of reading and learned allot of stuff in process, some info I didnt need at the time but later helped me with other stuff and resulted in me not needing to clone topics or ask questions that have already been asked and answered.
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I think the point John is making, is that the unhelpful replies limit users ability to search. For example, searching for "Help Flashing Evo" will find threads with the answer "Use Search", (recursion ) hence annoying the user and causing them to post instead of carrying on.
Users who don't bother reading/searching are (and probably always will be) a problem, hence svetius's change requiring 10 post to use Development forums; we need to find more efficient ways to help them
Dave
thank you very much!!! i have been thinking about this topic a long by myself, but i didnt dare to mention it with my low post counter.
I got my HD2 only 1 month ago and its my first WM device. I am very good with all technical devices, but it was still very hard for me to find the right answers.
As i just bricked my nokia phone during an update i wanted to make sure to not brick my HD2..
its hard to get all the information, and i was thinking about creating a webpage - which really expalains idiot-proof how everything works.
oida_oida said:
its hard to get all the information, and i was thinking about creating a webpage - which really expalains idiot-proof how everything works.
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The guides and the wikis + plethora of resources are already in place especially for establishes devices like the Leo. The only issues is the "newer" crowd is lazy and does not search and hence hundreds of threads asking questions to which answers have already been mentioned sometime somewhere on the forum. That's not the only issue- the problem is that these newer people won't be patient or even post in the correct place.
For eg. I have seen threads about Android development being posted in Win D&H.
We have to live & deal with it, it's a side effect of growth and progress.
JM2C's.
There seems to be a significant amount of animosity of late in all forums - not just HD2. I'm not certain as to why this is, all I do know is that I find unacceptable. As moderators, we spend more time cleaning up flame & troll posts than working on our own community contributions.
My observations:
XDA is about bringing together folks who have similar passions about mobile technology. As such, I expect a certain degree of maturity and professionalism from all members during their "stay" on this forum.
Responses that provide helpful and constructive information as opposed to "use the search", "try Google", "it's broken", "fix it", etc. help guide the thread back to topic. Here's a few examples:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9929554&postcount=4
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10749020&postcount=7
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10097254&postcount=22
There is absolutely no reason to respond in a rude tone, make someone feel stupid, or disrespect a member trying to offer something back to the community ... it is not constructive and serves no purpose. Members are never forced to frequent a thread on this forum and as previously stated, members should choose to move on instead of posting inflammatory comments.
Shortly after the launch of a well advertised mobile device, there is an influx of new members. Most all carriers and device manufacturers send their customers to XDA for technical assistance. Place a call to your carrier technical support department, it won't take long before the support representative instructs you to: "check out XDA, they have tons of information on how to fix that ...".
Most of newcomers who frequent the site are under the misconception that XDA is an extension of their carrier technical support department. This becomes apparent when I read posts complaining about issues with features or demanding an answer to their problem. As most of these newcomers are less technical, they lack the expertise required to assess the problem and determine the correct terminology to use in a search.
The current consumer model is not conducive to holding carrier and device manufacturers accountable. The current marketing paradigm is about convenience and how the one device that "does it all" is here. Most consumers buy into the paradigm and spend little to no time researching before the purchase. Once the device is purchased and fails to meet expectations, they simply go out and purchase something else.
vBulletin Search is horrible and unless one has a PhD in XDA Google Search, the likelihood of finding a meaningful answer in a billion threads is well ... challenging at best.
There are other observations that I have made; but the ones above are IMHO, some of the key issues and why I prefer to take a less aggressive approach when moderating newcomer posts.
Regards,
Those observations are very accurate and sums up the issue well, Hilaireg.
Thanks to all for giving your two cents on this rather important issue. The problems that we currently face are a product of people not having a sense of community. As hilaireg stated, many come here for a "quick fix" simply because the CSR at their company had no idea what to do and decided to direct you here to see if maybe you could fix the issue yourself.
Admittedly, there are search engines that are somewhat better than vB's, but the point that the OP is making is 100% dead on target. By playing "smarta$$" and replying "search, you n00b" instead of providing any meaningful reply will do nothing else than dilute the results of your search. Having said this, people complaining that the search does not work, 8 times out of 10, are expecting the right answer to pop up in the first result from the thread, and will probably give up if by the second or third link they have not found anything. Patience is a virtue, and people looking for knowledge should expect for this to come at the price of a little effort.
I went from a $10 clamshell dumdum phone for 6 years, whambang straght into my Leo. I am over 36 & under 38 years old.
It took me 3 months of fumbling around getting peeved over constant resetting and crashes.
Not once did I bother anyone here with a question that with a bit of hands on do-it-yourself would eventually learn on my own.
However, I had Tmo tech. on speed dial...
I am not new to the forum game though...check my thread "Throttled". lol.
anywho, my phone will remain stock with tweaks, skins, and sweet theme action.
This is an awesome piece of awesome, but NOT for the severely impatient or timid.
Thank you XDA for doing the absolute maximum in making my leo purrrr!!!!
and moan threads are for sissies btw...lol.
@ hilaireg & egzthunder1
I understand and agree to some extent your points but the fact of the matter is that something really needs to be done to halt or slow down the amount of dupe posts or other that are polluting/diluting the forum.
I'm going to be honest I dont really have any problems using vB search and usally find the info I need. PLUS much rather find the info myself because it also makes me learn other stuff in process that I may need in future that I wouldnt usually learn if I had just gone and asked somebody for specific info.
Here are the steps I take to find the relevant info...
Check stickies
Check latest topics
Use search function (topic titles)
Use search function (topic content)
Then if I dont find any info I want I begin to start a new thread and take note of the "similar threads" function before posting. If all else fails I use google.
The problem is that 99% of newbies dont do any of this or very little to look for what they need info/help on, They just rather create a topic and let the info be brought to them, which is fine but majority of questions are already answered in stickies or tuts/guides which are easy to find.
I really think that we need to have a 100 post limit on the dev section this will reduce by allot the amount of spam we get, maybe not specifically for replying to topics but certainly for creating them. And also maybe a FAQ sticky in each Q&A forum with links to most asked ones.
TheATHEiST said:
The problem is that 99% of newbies dont do any of this or very little to look for what they need info/help on, They just rather create a topic and let the info be brought to them, which is fine but majority of questions are already answered in stickies or tuts/guides which are easy to find.
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The newbies aren't the only problem.
*You* yourself recently lit into a newbie in a very uncalled for fashion. With your post and the followups to your post, you helped muddy the waters for finding actual solutions.
There are solutions:
1) the OPs start updating their original posts with solutions to outstanding problems. The search engine is only as good as the queries being put into it, and as more "SEARCH DA TRED NEB3!!!" responses fill the thread, that makes actually finding the solution all the more difficult.
2) Regulars stop flaming the newbies. When I first started posting here I got a number of @ss**** responses to reasonable questions. If regulars behave like that, what type of newbs do you think you're attracting?
Lets not make this a 'he said/she said' or a pointing-fingers thread.
For a solution to the problem at hand, when we see such behavior, we can easily rectify it - as the OP stated - by posting the answer to questions instead of telling the person to search for the answer.
Now this does also bring a 'double-edge' scenario: This may give the n00bs the idea that it is okay to post a question without searching. But this is already happening.
So if we at least cut the amount of posts about the same topic down, there will be less of what bothers the senior members. And we won't have to suggest 'Search the forums for the answer.'
As a possible-soon-to-be-moderator of the Herald forums, I promise to do this myself. Hopefully, we can all agree to do the same as Senior Members of this community. I also don't expect anyone who has less than a hundred posts to do this, but, hopefully a trend will catch on.
apallohadas said:
The newbies aren't the only problem.
*You* yourself recently lit into a newbie in a very uncalled for fashion. With your post and the followups to your post, you helped muddy the waters for finding actual solutions.
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Hey I didnt say they was the only problem, hence "99%".
If we keep re-iterating the same answers we are just going round in circles. The ONLY way to solve this is to somehow halt/slow them from asking the same repeat questions in first place, not just keep providing the answers every time they decide to be lazy and ask the same question and not just that they also ask them by creating a topic in the wrong places.
It's not just the HD2 forum, it's the same in the Desire one too (and yes, I'm guilty of a bit of flaming but some people just ask EXTREMELY dumb questions and even when you answer continue to ignore you so they deserve it)
Rule 1 of the forum is to search and for those who haven't even done that they deserve it too. But to those who say they've actually tried and not found anything I'll try and be helpful
These people just need to learn the proper way to ask a question. If you want a response from the power-hungry people who reply with insults, you must phrase it properly.
Instead of saying: "How do you get bluetooth working in Android NAND?"
They need to say: "Android on the HD2 SUCKS because bluetooth doesn't work right!"
What you will then see is these jerks flocking to prove the OP wrong, all while answering his question. 90% of the time, it works every time.
But if we do keep reiterating the answers to properly asked questions, that makes the search engine more useful for those that do use it. The answer doesn't get buried in 'you suk n00b' responses.
If a person feels they can't respond without insults, then they should have the self control not to respond right?
IMO the ones with knowledge need self control and should control their temper; and be helping ( luckily for us most are ).
And the n00bs need to know the forum decorum and manners better.
And the minimum posts requirement to post in dev. section is a small but very important step in the right direction, I recall when I signed up on XDA for months I was just reading and posting. And posted only in the Q&A threads or threads related to fashing/ROMs ( when I needed help with that); but these days the people won't have the patience to do that.
Either we need to vomit it out on them or somehow teach them the old school method of search + posting on right threads/forums.
I have been a member since March 2011 sometime - can't remember the exact date. I bought an Optimus P500 to replace my ageing Palm Treo 680. As soon as I started using the phone I was sucked into the who gamut of ROMs and improving the performance of the stock OS. Obviously, it was through the Development Forums. I am likely one of the older members using these forums - 65 years. I have now been going through the forums for things of my interest for over 2 months on a daily basis. Some of the practices and behaviour in the development forums are causes for concern as they reduce the productivity of the people who work on the developments. I am listing some and hope that the administrators of XDA will take some steps which can help in rectifying the situation.
1. People are unwilling to spend even 2 mins to search for what has been answered a hundred times - exaggeration perhaps but definitely tens of times.
2. People are unwilling, or to be less charitable unable, to read anything carefully and are just rushing to implement something new.
3. They will ask a question even when the answer is in plain words ad nauseum.
4. They will try things which are dangerous without learning enough and then flood the forums in several threads about how they have run into a problem and can someone help them. I have run into some problems but have been able to search the forums for solutions and it did not take more than 10-15 mins of time. In the bargain I learnt a lot more.
5. People are writing merely to express their satisfaction at something happening or about to happen or to praise a developer. There is a system of expressing your thanks/satisfaction. Why not use that instead of saying two words which add nothing to the development forum?
6. It is easy to identify those who are at fault and are reducing the effectiveness of the people on the development forums. Why not have a series of measures setup to gradually weed them out and let them vent their sentiments on the General Section?
7. The criteria of having someone post 10 times to the General or Q & A sections getting eligible to post in the Development Forums needs review. In one of the forums on automobiles which I use they are much more strict in enforcing posting etiquette and in weeding out totally useless members who are only looking to see their own comments on the web. I am sure we are ingenious enough to work out a more effective criteria/system.
I am not against contribution to development forums but i am against wasting time and space by writing 'Aha what fun we are going to get an update tomorrow'!
Cliff notes?
have ppl interested in the topics posted read the threads - at least the highlights. In fact the answer to the question how the forum usage and user experience could be improved might be an option that allows readers to look at a summary of the thread first showing the most helpful / informative responses... of course someone by some means needs to select the topics which will be added to the summaries.
On certain threads questions are repeated cause there are over 1000 pages of responses so i'd much rather repeat a question than spend countless hours looking through pages
I agree that people need to do some research instead of asking questions that have been answered a bunch of times before.
I'm not on the same page when it comes to people posting gratitude or excitement. Yes there is a thanks button, but sometimes you want to go the extra mile and tell them how you feel. After all, this is a community. We aren't robots and humans like to interact with each other. It's easy to skim past these types of post because it's always obvious what they are about. It also adds more posts to the threads and moves them to the top and there is nothing wrong with that.
I like the thanks button as well, because it will be obvious to people who see your name that you are helpful and someone that will probably help them with questions they might have and not be a total **** if they get a PM.
omjhd said:
On certain threads questions are repeated cause there are over 1000 pages of responses so i'd much rather repeat a question than spend countless hours looking through pages
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I agree completely. 1000, hey even 100 pages in a thread can be daunting! That's why there is a search tool (and a very good one at that).
Example: I just installed a new ROM on my Incredible S. The thread for the ROM contains 50 pages. In real life, I'd sit there and read it. That's just me. Put aside half an hour, get to know the issues people are having, the issues that have been covered, and what's still in progress. Your chances of running into issues during the install are quite often significantly lessened by reading the whole thread through. There are also some awesome hidden gems in amongst some of the posts which are worth looking for (extra themes, battery indicators, patched programs and launchers, etc.)
I understand that not everyone has the time to read an entire thread, and that's quite okay. But if you have enough time to look for a new ROM, check some screenshots, download it, install it, then run into issues and post a quesion - you have enough time to search a thread. All you have to do is hit the 'search thread' button, give the tool a couple of keywords ('launcher force close', 'bluetooth headset no sound' etc.) and see what it throws back. If it throws you an answer, all well and good. If it doesn't try a few more keywords, then post your question. At least you've done your research!
In the end, what you do is up to you. Know, however, that you stand a much better chance of getting the answer you are looking for (not just a rude single sentence - an actual answer that will help you) if you put in a little bit of effort before you ask the question.
Welcome to the largest smartphone development forum on the internet
Try being a moderator! Trust me, some of those things you listed are something we have tried to reduce for a long time, but when you have a forum with almost 4 million members, keeping everyone under control is not something we can always do 100%.
Feel free to make any suggestions as to how things can be improved. We are always welcome to hear ideas.
omjhd said:
On certain threads questions are repeated cause there are over 1000 pages of responses so i'd much rather repeat a question than spend countless hours looking through pages
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That's why we have a "search" function.
the_scotsman said:
Welcome to the largest smartphone development forum on the internet
Try being a moderator! Trust me, some of those things you listed are something we have tried to reduce for a long time, but when you have a forum with almost 4 million members, keeping everyone under control is not something we can always do 100%.
Feel free to make any suggestions as to how things can be improved. We are always welcome to hear ideas.
That's why we have a "search" function.
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Amen.
/10char
Why are you judging members by their post count?
For lack of a better alternative. I challenge anyone to come up with a better alternative.
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OK. You need a 'user points' system. I'm more familiar with Drupal than vb (you should probably upgrade sometime), so I'm not sure what's available for vb, if anything. You want something similar to this: http://drupal.org/project/userpoints
Users then earn points for performing certain actions on your site (not just posting), you can assign different amounts of points for different actions. Points can be removed too.
Then have a minimum userpoint limit for posting in certain forums.
Then you'd have better control over what activities you were encouraging users to do, rather than just encouraging short spam posts.
Chalenge accepted.
wbaw said:
12aon said:
]Why are you judging members by their post count?
For lack of a better alternative. I challenge anyone to come up with a better alternative, and share it with us.
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OK. You need a 'user points' system.
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Click to collapse
First of all I'd like to say "challenge accepted"
@wbaw: I like your Idea of a 'user points' system. To make sure that there are only posts that are above a certain level of standard, you need to create some kind of 'filter'. But I think that, such a system as you have suggested could be exploited as well. As long as there are technical rules to be fulfilled one can just do so and get his status right.
@12aon: In my opinion we need a rating system for the quality of posts and based on this a hiding mechanism for posts.
Let me explain why I came up and what I mean by this.
I have to confess that I'm a heavy user of youtube. And here you have a good example what I mean. You do not only have the ability to press a "like", "+1" or "thump up" -button but also the possibility to press "thumps down". What I figured out is, that the rating of the videos are surprisingly close to my own opinion. That implies that everyone is sensitive to the quality of a video (or post?!?) and furthermore that the average opinion about the quality is in average the opinion of the single reader itself (myself).
In the XDA-Forum you have the "Thanks" button. What I suggest is a ... hmmm ... "ingratitude" button (or just do "thumps up and down", "plus and minus", "happy and sad" or whatever you like). Each user has a single voice for each post.
With this mechanism in place, a post that is below a certain threshold could be automatically minimized. I don't mean that they should be deleted, because there might be answers that refer to this particular post. But by minimizing it, bad quality posts get out of the focus of the reader. If wanted, one can still expand and read it (by pressing some kind of an "open button").
That is the first step. In the second step there is a user rating that is based on the post rating of all his posts. So if one does not mind his behavior or is asking stupid questions over and over again. His Account is restricted to post only in the non developer parts of the forum.
The first advantage by applying this functionality is, that silly posts get quite fast out of the focus of the reader.
The second advantage is that silly poster (no offense here ^^) are removed from development forums in the long run.
The third advantage is, that one have to take care of all his posts even in the long run (writing 10 posts does not necessarily means that one have learned its lesson). So the over all quality of the forum itself is increasing.
In my opinion this functionality is a little bit better than restricting everyone (even the high quality poster) to non development forums just because they are not active enough to reach 10 posts.
The problem is, to define the threshold. I've some ideas in my mind, but that would leave the scope of this post which is to invite a new (I know its old, but new to this forum) idea.
Cheers
Ponsel
p.S. Sorry 4 my bad English. Its not my native language.
wbaw said:
OK. You need a 'user points' system. I'm more familiar with Drupal than vb (you should probably upgrade sometime), so I'm not sure what's available for vb, if anything. You want something similar to this: http://drupal.org/project/userpoints
Users then earn points for performing certain actions on your site (not just posting), you can assign different amounts of points for different actions. Points can be removed too.
Then have a minimum userpoint limit for posting in certain forums.
Then you'd have better control over what activities you were encouraging users to do, rather than just encouraging short spam posts.
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Click to collapse
I appreciate your ideas on this topic, although I have to admit I am really mystified by this: "....rather than just encouraging short spam posts".
Why do you believe that encouraging users to post in the proper sections with helpful answers to other users is "encouraging short spam posts"? I seriously don't get this idea. It is not really any more difficult to try a little to post even marginally helpful answers to other people in the General and Q&A forums as opposed to "short spam posts".
It is not like getting 10 not-spam posts is that difficult. Probably hundreds do it any given week here. Is it too much to ask that people read a little first, gain some knowledge, try to be a little helpful to others in the General, Q&A, Themes and Apps, and Accessories device forums, or in the general discussion forums, in order to be able to post into any dev thread on this site?
I am not sure if there is a way to add this type of functionality to VBulletin, but I think it just becomes a meaningless stat over time just like the thanks counter, and users will figure out a way to scam it as well.
Ponsel said:
First of all I'd like to say "challenge accepted"
@12aon: In my opinion we need a rating system for the quality of posts and based on this a hiding mechanism for posts.
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This is already in the works from what I hear, there will be rating buttons on each post, enough positive votes raises it up, enough negative votes hides it (not delete).
mf2112 said:
Ponsel said:
First of all I'd like to say "challenge accepted"
@12aon: In my opinion we need a rating system for the quality of posts and based on this a hiding mechanism for posts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is already in the works from what I hear, there will be rating buttons on each post, enough positive votes raises it up, enough negative votes hides it (not delete).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That sounds great. I'd love to increase the visibility of my favorite ROM and further more rate away bad posts.
Cheers
Ponsel
p.S. Just writing to increase my "noob counter" ;-D
Ponsel said:
That sounds great. I'd love to increase the visibility of my favorite ROM and further more rate away bad posts.
Cheers
Ponsel
p.S. Just writing to increase my "noob counter" ;-D
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I would advise not writing posts to simply increase your post count. That can get the wrong kind of attention. Instead, simply try to write good posts that help people less experienced than you in your devices General or Q&A forum and it won't ever be a problem to worry about.
@wbaw - While the user points system would be a massive change to how things are run at the moment, I can't help feeling that mf2112 is completely right when he says that it'll become just like the thanks button.
In an ideal world, it would be a great idea and would work perfectly well. But in amongst the realms of the internet, a lot of people will simply do all they can just so they can post something wherever they'd like to.
@Ponsel - Even though this rating system can be a great idea and will probably be put into action at some point, I can't help feeling that this system will be exploited aswell.
I say this because quite a few times, in my short time here, I've seen moments when there's been a casual discussion going on with 6/7 people and everything's going great. Then all of a sudden, one states their opinion and none of the others agree with it or like it, so they all gang up on the individual.
In this instance, the 'gang' could quite easily vote all the individuals comments down, thus resulting in him/her being penalized.
Obviously the situation would be able to be rectified in the end, but until a mod has been able to view the whole situation, the individual would still have to be without certain posting rights, which wouldn't be fair.
The third advantage is, that one have to take care of all his posts even in the long run (writing 10 posts does not necessarily means that one have learned its lesson). So the over all quality of the forum itself is increasing.
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^^^I really love this bit because as you mention, people will have to take care of what they post, even if they have thousands of posts. Also, I really do think it would improve the forum quality aswell. Only time will tell as to whether it with get implemented or not and whether it would even be effective, but I do like the idea so far.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
mf2112 said:
Ponsel said:
p.S. Just writing to increase my "noob counter" ;-D
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would advise not writing posts to simply increase your post count.
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I just could not resist to show how easy it is to exploit the "noob counter" system. You just need to start a discussion and keep trolling.
But here's the non trolling reply:
KidCarter93 said:
@Ponsel - Even though this rating system can be a great idea and will probably be put into action at some point, I can't help feeling that this system will be exploited aswell.
I say this because quite a few times, in my short time here, I've seen moments when there's been a casual discussion going on with 6/7 people and everything's going great. Then all of a sudden, one states their opinion and none of the others agree with it or like it, so they all gang up on the individual.
In this instance, the 'gang' could quite easily vote all the individuals comments down, thus resulting in him/her being penalized.
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I know, that my idea is not without any fault. But I think that this problem can be solved by a good threshold. I think its to early to go into details, but to support my idea and to encourage everyone to participate in this discussion (I can't fight the feeling that I'm just trolling again ^^) I'll now suggest one possible solution how to solve this problem.
I think the threshold should work in two steps:
Step 1. As long as there are no more than 5 ratings the post is visible.
Step 2. As long as there are 10% or more positive votes the post should still be visible.
These numbers have materialized out of thin air in front of my inner eye and I'd be glad if some "number cruncher" could calculate better ones. But first let me explain why I've chosen this particular ones.
First of all I'd like to state that I'd rather let a bad post stay visible then losing a good idea. So I would be very careful when filtering them out. By the method that I've suggested, a post would be as visible as long as not at least 6 persons have rated against it. And even then a single positive vote can keep the post above the threshold until there are 10 negative votes against it.
Normal posts will get voted very seldom (just because they don't polarize as much).
Posts that polarize will get some positive and some negative votes and stay above the threshold.
I figure that bad posts are so obvious bad that barely anyone will ever vote them positive (well ... the poster should not be allowed to rate his own post ^^).
The rating system for the account itself must work somehow different. I've no Idea how it should work, but I think that the lowest 5-15% of the "most unpopular" accounts should be restricted on non development forums (these numbers are out of thin air as well ^^).
KidCarter93 said:
Ponsel said:
The third advantage is, that one have to take care of all his posts even in the long run (writing 10 posts does not necessarily means that one have learned its lesson). So the over all quality of the forum itself is increasing.
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^^^I really love this bit because as you mention, people will have to take care of what they post, even if they have thousands of posts. Also, I really do think it would improve the forum quality aswell. Only time will tell as to whether it with get implemented or not and whether it would even be effective, but I do like the idea so far.
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Well in this point I'm not sooo optimistic because normal posts rarely get a rating at all. Giving those assumption someone with a lot of posts might stay above the threshold. It might be advisable to take only the posts with a rating into account, but I'm not sure.
I hope my remarks support my Idea of a rating system for posts ^^
Cheers
Ponsel
only issue i have is i am very experience in flashing roms just new to this site and i have a couple very specific questions about ombg nand and i could not ask. which is my main reason for signing up. there is a ton of great info here but i was having a specific issue with the rom on my rhod400 and i hope to get a answer in general since i couldnt ask directly in that thread.
orangezx10r said:
only issue i have is i am very experience in flashing roms just new to this site and i have a couple very specific questions about ombg nand and i could not ask. which is my main reason for signing up. there is a ton of great info here but i was having a specific issue with the rom on my rhod400 and i hope to get a answer in general since i couldnt ask directly in that thread.
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As others have stated, you should make some helpful posts around the forums. If you say you're sharp at flashing, I'm sure there's a ton of questions you can answer around the forums.
The TP2 is a strange device, in that it runs both Android and WinMo. We really need an "Android General" section for the TP2, which I have tried many times to get...
So unfortunately there's not a whole lot you can do. Just don't go spamming forums with worthless drivel... that will certainly get you unwanted attention.
This is the kind of thing we think about a lot. We actually do have a "points" system in beta on some forums but there are a lot of issues that come into play when you start showing/hiding threads based on points. What if a group gets together and starts voting competing projects down in collective voting blocks?
Right now we simply ask that in order to post in certain sections, that you help others out first. It may not be the ideal solution but it is working for the community at the moment.
Anyway, rest assured we continually evaluate the best way to balance user interaction vs limiting the cruft.
bitpushr said:
This is the kind of thing we think about a lot. We actually do have a "points" system in beta on some forums but there are a lot of issues that come into play when you start showing/hiding threads based on points. What if a group gets together and starts voting competing projects down in collective voting blocks?
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I'm not quite sure how to answer this. I'll try it anyway
My suggestion is for single posts, not for threads. Probably its a good idea to disable the the voting for the initial post of a thread.
It's all about visibility. I don't want to delete the post, just minimize it within the thread.
I'd like to mention the REALLY low threshold. 10% means that every 10 negative votes can be countered by one single positive vote.
If there is a project that figures that there is a competitor the competitor itself must have accumulated enough interest to be recognized as such one. That means that there is a fan base to keep it above the threshold mentioned in point 3.
Last but not least. It might sound harsh, but if a Project can not build up as many fans as needed to defend itself, then probably this project might be not worth working on it (just a thought).
Cheers
Ponsel
We can mention who all have voted up/down on every post (through some expandable option, ofcourse)..
This way, group behaviour can be identified, and accordingly dealt with, by the mods...
Ponsel said:
[*]Last but not least. It might sound harsh, but if a Project can not build up as many fans as needed to defend itself, then probably this project might be not worth working on it (just a thought).
Cheers
Ponsel
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Sorry but an app that is genuinely useful but may only have a handful of responses is just as, if not more valuable to a site like this than some annoying fart/wallpaper application which may have hundreds.
Quantity of responses/thanks clicks is no gauge for quality.
This is a difficult issue to approach and I don't really have an answer for you but my personal feeling has always been that the post count limit should be raised.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
conantroutman said:
Sorry but an app that is genuinely useful but may only have a handful of responses is just as, if not more valuable to a site like this than some annoying fart/wallpaper application which may have hundreds.
Quantity of responses/thanks clicks is no gauge for quality.
This is a difficult issue to approach and I don't really have an answer for you but my personal feeling has always been that the post count limit should be raised.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
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You,sir,are amazing... LOL... Anyway,i also agree that the post count limit should be increased rather than decreased..
conantroutman said:
Sorry but an app that is genuinely useful but may only have a handful of responses is just as, if not more valuable to a site like this than some annoying fart/wallpaper application which may have hundreds.
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See point 4 on my list. A project as small as you seems to have in mind, would never collect enough attention to be recognized as a competitor. it's just to small.
conantroutman said:
Quantity of responses/thanks clicks is no gauge for quality.
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Neither is a "noob counter".
conantroutman said:
This is a difficult issue to approach and I don't really have an answer for you but my personal feeling has always been that the post count limit should be raised.
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Following your argumentation that even small projects might contribute to the developer community, I'd like to express the thought, that even the first post of a completely new account could include the spark of genius that is needed to solve a problem for which even recognized developers could provide a solution since years. One should not use different standards to similar problems. :angel::laugh:
conantroutman said:
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
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Quality of a post is not only based on its contents, but on the manners of the poster as well. The phrase quoted would have made me hesitating to give a positive vote (neither would I rate it down, because your arguments help to figure out the pro and cons of my suggestion and we urgently need to discuss the boundaries of a new idea before doing a field test).
Cheers
Ponsel
Ponsel said:
See point 4 on my list. A project as small as you seems to have in mind, would never collect enough attention to be recognized as a competitor. it's just to small.
The examples given aren't really important, its the principle, just because something is popular does not make it any more relevant or valid. I'm also unsure where the idea of competition comes from. XDA is about collaboration not competition.
Neither is a "noob counter".
It's not a counter, it's a period of introduction to the forums and a chance to contribute to the community befor gaining access to the development forums. It's unfortunate that such measures are necessary but due to the majority of new member simply wishing to ask inane questions or make demands of the developers, they are necessary.
Following your argumentation that even small projects might contribute to the developer community, I'd like to express the thought, that even the first post of a completely new account could include the spark of genius that is needed to solve a problem for which even recognized developers could provide a solution since years. One should not use different standards to similar problems. :angel::laugh:
Very true and one of the major drawbacks to this rule. However, anyone with such knowledge will no doubt either make ten useful posts or alert the relevant party via PM. Anyone who has the attitude of "I know the answer but I'm not sharing it because of the ten post rule" is probably not suited to XDA.
Quality of a post is not only based on its contents, but on the manners of the poster as well. The phrase quoted would have made me hesitating to give a positive vote (neither would I rate it down, because your arguments help to figure out the pro and cons of my suggestion and we urgently need to discuss the boundaries of a new idea before doing a field test).
lol, the phrase you quoted here is my mobile signature and not directed at you or your post here
Cheers
Ponsel
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Responded to your points in red.
Here is my take on the 10-post "issue". I signed up for the forum a few days ago to hopefully get an answer regarding the win mobile phones and Ive searched for an answer and could not find one. I'm not a windows phone user so I dont have a lot of knowledge about the devices so Im not the best person to help (hence lowering my post count). So I have to reply with posts like this to be able to post a real question in the category I really want to post it in. I've asked the question in the Q&A section but because its flooded with everyone's questions I dont think people actually go there to help assist anyone (my short observation).
vitaliyt said:
Here is my take on the 10-post "issue". I signed up for the forum a few days ago to hopefully get an answer regarding the win mobile phones and Ive searched for an answer and could not find one. I'm not a windows phone user so I dont have a lot of knowledge about the devices so Im not the best person to help (hence lowering my post count). So I have to reply with posts like this to be able to post a real question in the category I really want to post it in. I've asked the question in the Q&A section but because its flooded with everyone's questions I dont think people actually go there to help assist anyone (my short observation).
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The development section is not the place for questions. I can assure that posting a question there will get you a response, however it won't be the one you want.
So here is my partial proposed solution to the issue. Upon signup, perhaps the users need to go through a rotating question system (10 questions?) and another captcha? This may take the user longer to sign up and be able to post but maybe there wont be so many abandoned user accounts, not sure if you have current viability on this or not.
Abandoned accounts is not the problem...
The problem is that people think that the dev area is for newb questions...it isn't...
Hence, the initial limitation posed to all, so that they atleast try and understand what this site is about...
"By the power vested in me, I now pronounce you, Man and Knife"
Ever notice how these forums are CRAWLING!!!! with the know-it-all put-you-down small-person inferiority-complex type? These are the ones who, even though you used the damn search for three hours before posting a thread, and did not find your answer, they respond to your post with "USE THE SEARCH!!!!!" W T F !!!! They flame the hell out of such members and drive away even some devs because they are just selfish a$$hole know-it-alls. And I LOVE how they will FLAME THE HELL out of anyone who posts a question thread in the dev section claiming it's against the rules, when in fact it's NOT!!! There is no WRITTEN rule here that states that (unlike at PPCGEEKS which DOES have such a written rule), they FLAME people on the claim that these people are violating such a sacred rule, which doesn't actually exist, and yet they are somehow exempt from the explicit written rule of not flaming! If I was a mod, I would seriously devote my time to finding these people and BANNING THEM!!! I've seen people, who have serious, time sensitive problems to solve, and post in more than one forum hoping to get a speedy answer, and some BRILLIANT WIZARD comes along and flames them for CROSS POSTING!!! ARE YOU SERIOUS!? If someone is in desperate need of getting their phone fixed they are not going to be persuaded by some a$$h013 KNOW IT ALL wannabe forum HALL MONITOR bossing them! W!, T!, F!,
You know HOW MANY TIMES I've done a search for a problem, found a thread with someone who has the SAME PROBLEM, but the ONLY RESPONSE listed is someone saying "USE THE SEARCH AND DON'T CLUTTER UP THE FORUM!!!! THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED!!!!" yet for some reason that is the ONLY DAMN THREAD I can find on it!!!! HOW I *LOVE* finding such HELPFUL THREADS!!!
I've read posts by devs who have left or severely LIMITED their work due to people they call "HATERS". Good job. Seriously, yelling at someone who is asking for help is lame and such responses should be deleted and people with such attitudes BANNED!
And how many TIMES do you find someone who posts a question in the DEV section and some EINSTEIN comes along and their ONLY REPLY is "THIS NEEDS TO BE MOVED!! DON'T POST QUESTIONS IN THE DEV SECTION!!!" W T F!!!! These types of people need to be banned for life. Making people afraid to ask questions hinders growth and due to the lack of it my love for searching and using Google has brought to light many more forums which some devs are favoring rather than XDA. Too bad, this place used to be the hang out of the 1337. People shouldn't be flamed for asking questions, and it shouldn't be assumed people aren't using the search. We all know of Google. I doubt there are many posts any more where the OP hasn't first used the search. Even secretaries know how to use Google. Saying "USE THE SEARCH!!!" isn't some stroke of dawning brilliance. This place has become so brutal that I'm sure even AFTER using the search and failing some still won't post their questions.
Let me begin by saying that I'm not attacking you or anyone else personally in this reply. My intention is to illustrate the other side of this argument. You see useless members starting flame wars; I see members protecting other users from potentially bricking their devices, teaching them manners, and upholding the sanctity of our developer forums.
petermg said:
Ever notice how these forums are CRAWLING!!!! with the know-it-all put-you-down small-person inferiority-complex type? These are the ones who, even though you used the damn search for three hours before posting a thread, and did not find your answer, they respond to your post with "USE THE SEARCH!!!!!" W T F !!!!
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I can assure you that the majority of the time, the person in which the flame is directed did not use the search feature. If they did, then common sense would dictate that you give the most amount of information relevant to your problem in order for someone else to help. We are not mind readers. If the majority of the problems that are posted about here could have been answered by the simple use of the search feature, and that person did not use it, well, it gets extraordinarily annoying after a time. In any case, if they did search, but didn't provide that bit of information in their post, then you can't get mad at us for not being mind readers.
They flame the hell out of such members and drive away even some devs because they are just selfish a$$hole know-it-alls. And I LOVE how they will FLAME THE HELL out of anyone who posts a question thread in the dev section claiming it's against the rules, when in fact it's NOT!!! There is no WRITTEN rule here that states that (unlike at PPCGEEKS which DOES have such a written rule), they FLAME people on the claim that these people are violating such a sacred rule, which doesn't actually exist, and yet they are somehow exempt from the explicit written rule of not flaming!
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This is an issue which is always in a bit of flux here. You have to understand that this isn't a support website. This website is dedicated to development. As such, developers on this website come first and foremost. If you or anyone else decide to clutter up the development forums, which are provided as a haven for our developers, with inane posts about simple things that could have been answered with the search feature or should have simply been posted in the proper forum, this too gets very old very quickly. I'm not condoning the flaming, but you have to accept that there is just cause for the disdain on this topic.
If I was a mod, I would seriously devote my time to finding these people and BANNING THEM!!! I've seen people, who have serious, time sensitive problems to solve, and post in more than one forum hoping to get a speedy answer, and some BRILLIANT WIZARD comes along and flames them for CROSS POSTING!!! ARE YOU SERIOUS!? If someone is in desperate need of getting their phone fixed they are not going to be persuaded by some a$$h013 KNOW IT ALL wannabe forum HALL MONITOR bossing them! W!, T!, F!,
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First off, as a mod, tracking down these people should not be your primary concern. There are far more pressing matters to attend to than this select group of people. Besides, pointing out the obvious isn't against the rules. Cross posting, however, is against the rules. The bottom line for the time-sensitive posts is that it is a risk you take by flashing a custom ROM, or doing something the manufacturer didn't intend. It comes back around to my point about us not being a support website. If someone has the spare time to get you an answer, then good for you, but it is never something that anyone should expect here.
You know HOW MANY TIMES I've done a search for a problem, found a thread with someone who has the SAME PROBLEM, but the ONLY RESPONSE listed is someone saying "USE THE SEARCH AND DON'T CLUTTER UP THE FORUM!!!! THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED!!!!" yet for some reason that is the ONLY DAMN THREAD I can find on it!!!! HOW I *LOVE* finding such HELPFUL THREADS!!!
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More likely than not, you simply need to change your search terms. If you aren't able to find your answer by searching, then make a post about it letting us know what exactly you searched for that garnered no results.
This does two things:
1) It narrows down our search criteria to exclude the terms you have already exhausted.
2) It shows us that you didn't come here just to leach an answer from the community, but also put in some effort at troubleshooting your own issue.
I've read posts by devs who have left or severely LIMITED their work due to people they call "HATERS". Good job. Seriously, yelling at someone who is asking for help is lame and such responses should be deleted and people with such attitudes BANNED!
And how many TIMES do you find someone who posts a question in the DEV section and some EINSTEIN comes along and their ONLY REPLY is "THIS NEEDS TO BE MOVED!! DON'T POST QUESTIONS IN THE DEV SECTION!!!" W T F!!!! These types of people need to be banned for life.
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This happens because most of the senior members here, including myself, feel that anyone with half a brain should be able to tell that questions go in the question and answers fora. They are labeled like that for a reason. If you didn't create something developmental, then there isn't a reason to post a thread in the development fora.
Making people afraid to ask questions hinders growth and due to the lack of it my love for searching and using Google has brought to light many more forums which some devs are favoring rather than XDA. Too bad, this place used to be the hang out of the 1337. People shouldn't be flamed for asking questions, and it shouldn't be assumed people aren't using the search. We all know of Google. I doubt there are many posts any more where the OP hasn't first used the search. Even secretaries know how to use Google. Saying "USE THE SEARCH!!!" isn't some stroke of dawning brilliance. This place has become so brutal that I'm sure even AFTER using the search and failing some still won't post their questions.
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Just because people know about Google doesn't mean they've actually used it. It is far more rare to come across a user asking a question who has done a search first than not.
The problem isn't so much about people asking questions. The problem lies a bit deeper now. Things used to be different here, indeed. I've personally been a registered XDA user for 6 years now. Things were more development focused back in the old WM days. It was normally only those of us who were looking for ways to get more out of our Pocket PCs that would frequent the forum. This mentality you are describing wasn't any different then from what it is today. The only difference is that now that Android has flooded the market that Apple made popular, we have a different set of users who are looking for a different type of development.
When I was a noob here, the flaming for not searching and doing the work myself was what eventually taught me how to find my own answers and not rely on others to support my device. I learned how to search, compose a proper post, and ask for help in a way that showed I wasn't trying to be a leach but had legitimately tried to solve my issue and failed.
The other big difference at the time was the age difference between WM users and the current generation of Android and iOS users. Back then, WM users were generally in their 20s or older. Most of the people using it, such as myself, needed it as a professional portable workstation. We had a more mature mentality towards our precious piece of technology. There were few times where you could get one of these Pocket PCs for under $400, so we valued what we had spent our money on, since insurance claims on them were all but nonexistent at the time. If we did something wrong, then there was a good chance that our expensive gadget would be just another paperweight. Since a fair portion of us needed these devices for a daily job, there was more caution thrown towards modding, flashing, or installing software.
Now, our devices are known as smartphones, and our users are mostly teenagers to whom their device was given by their parents. They don't have the same sense of worth towards their devices that used to be present since they didn't pay anything for it, or paid very little.
These users aren't taught that respect needs to be show if you want to receive it. I know it may seem as though they didn't say anything warranting a flame war, but by not showing other members of this community who donate their time to it enough respect to out line their problem and how they tried to solve it, all it sounds like to us is, "Here, I broke this. You need to fix it for me for free."
I hope that this has shown you the other side of the coin.
There is a difference between other forums and this one. They are user forums and this one is not. It is a developers forum. Made by and for developers.
im also newbie,still learning to theme my rom,applying and make new mod from the tutorial that posted here in developement forum,i read all threads and posts to understand how to make it on my phone,not just asking for help,if you say you are tired reading all threads and posts to find an answer,what about the devs??are'nt they tired of answering same question over and over??say something with you mind open,just an advice
Sent from my LT18i
Some good points made on each side, but the fact is that this is NOT the regular use forum, it's for the "pro" people, so I think it's understandable when they get annoyed with some of the users asking seemingly simple questions.
zelendel said:
There is a difference between other forums and this one. They are user forums and this one is not. It is a developers forum. Made by and for developers.
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xda is for developers and users.
Android78822 said:
xda is for developers and users.
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No, it isn't. That's where the confusion comes from. This is a developer forum that we allow non-developers to be a part of. The catch is that you have to actually participate and be a part of the community to get any level of respect here. We don't appreciate people coming here just to turn us into a support forum. If you want tech support, call your carrier. If you want to be a part of a community, come here.
If you are in urgent need of help I would recommend trying IRC first, it's usually a lot easier to get real time feedback from people on there compared to a forum.
Some of the flaming may be unnecessary, but you have to realize that a large amount of time goes into a lot of the ROMs, kernels, etc. If you're nice enough to share it then you deserve to have a chance for everyone to see it. To have everyone bury their posts just so they can ask a question is inconsiderate, to say the least. Plus the clutter makes it harder for those looking for something to find it.
When I first started lurking here I only needed to see one question in the dev section for me to figure out that was the last place to post one. Sure I was cautious the first time or two I posted there, but you better believe I made sure it fit in with the other posts there before I posted it.
cajunflavoredbob said:
No, it isn't. That's where the confusion comes from. This is a developer forum that we allow non-developers to be a part of. The catch is that you have to actually participate and be a part of the community to get any level of respect here. We don't appreciate people coming here just to turn us into a support forum. If you want tech support, call your carrier. If you want to be a part of a community, come here.
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You. Are. Awesome.
Always a level-headed, thorough, well-thought-out response. Keep it up.
arrrghhh said:
You. Are. Awesome.
Always a level-headed, thorough, well-thought-out response. Keep it up.
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Nah he's a scumbag really...
He just pops in here every now and then to make up for trolling elsewhere...
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.......
conantroutman said:
Nah he's a scumbag really...
He just pops in here every now and then to make up for trolling elsewhere...
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.......
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Save your trolling for OT. I'll meet you there later. Lol
I've changed my mind about this very subject so many times that I've lost count. I used to be in the "Search the forum." camp, but then decided that I could be more constructive - "Search the forum and see if you can find any help there. I just used this search term - xxxxxxxxxxxxx - and came up with some answers for you. See if any of them help."
From what I've seen most of the people that are blunt about searching one day are friendly and offer good, helpful advice the next day. Yes, of course there are a few trolls that seem to take pleasure in baiting confrontation, but that's unfortunately the nature of large groups of people. There's always 1!
This community has, by and large, been the most informative website I have ever had the pleasure to take part in. My only advice with regards to this matter would be to learn to take bad attitudes with a pinch of salt, or let the mods know if someone's gone too far. I'm certainly not shy about bringing things to the attention of mods, and I've only been trolled by one of them
Basically, if you see something you don't like then don't rant. Teach by example. It makes the whole place better for us all.
Archer said:
I've changed my mind about this very subject so many times that I've lost count. I used to be in the "Search the forum." camp, but then decided that I could be more constructive - "Search the forum and see if you can find any help there. I just used this search term - xxxxxxxxxxxxx - and came up with some answers for you. See if any of them help."
From what I've seen most of the people that are blunt about searching one day are friendly and offer good, helpful advice the next day. Yes, of course there are a few trolls that seem to take pleasure in baiting confrontation, but that's unfortunately the nature of large groups of people. There's always 1!
This community has, by and large, been the most informative website I have ever had the pleasure to take part in. My only advice with regards to this matter would be to learn to take bad attitudes with a pinch of salt, or let the mods know if someone's gone too far. I'm certainly not shy about bringing things to the attention of mods, and I've only been trolled by one of them
Basically, if you see something you don't like then don't rant. Teach by example. It makes the whole place better for us all.
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I've kind of grown out of the "USE THE SEARCH FEATURE" responses as well. It took me several years, but now I ask questions designed to teach them how they should be posting questions.
When I see a post like "i brookeded my fone. needz help! whAT SHouLd i do?!!!", it generates a response from me along the lines of, "Ok, what did you do to try and fix it yourself? Have you searched for your problem? Did you read the stickies? Did you read any relevant FAQs for that mod/hack/ROM/app?"
It's a bit condescending, but not as insulting as just spamming SEARCH FIRST all the time. This way, they feel a little bit insulted, but at least they know why.
cajunflavoredbob said:
I've kind of grown out of the "USE THE SEARCH FEATURE" responses as well. It took me several years, but now I ask questions designed to teach them how they should be posting questions.
When I see a post like "i brookeded my fone. needz help! whAT SHouLd i do?!!!", it generates a response from me along the lines of, "Ok, what did you do to try and fix it yourself? Have you searched for your problem? Did you read the stickies? Did you read any relevant FAQs for that mod/hack/ROM/app?"
It's a bit condescending, but not as insulting as just spamming SEARCH FIRST all the time. This way, they feel a little bit insulted, but at least they know why.
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Exactly - could not agree more (especially since you were pretty much agreeing with me ) I find myself now showing a newb (not noob) how it should be done, whilst at the same time letting the "SEARCH NOOB" shouters know how they should deal with it.
Given time though, I think most of us realise the futility of shouting at people that demand support. There's one guy in particular I can think of (obviously won't say who), who came on here shouting NOOB and telling people to search and ranting at everything that was even vaguely rantable at, and it was clear that he just enjoyed it. Now, though, after a couple of years on here he's one of the most helpful members I know. He has tons of patience and tons of thanks to show for it. I see him around now and then and we usually say hello, and I have to admit that it's nice to think that maybe showing him how to deal with a newb quietly and calmly may have had some effect. Maybe not, but either way I'm glad he got there eventually.
Either people stay and eventually become more chilled, or they leave in anger or get booted for trolling/swearing/abusing etc..
I have faith in the majority.
Archer said:
Exactly - could not agree more (especially since you were pretty much agreeing with me ) I find myself now showing a newb (not noob) how it should be done, whilst at the same time letting the "SEARCH NOOB" shouters know how they should deal with it.
Given time though, I think most of us realise the futility of shouting at people that demand support. There's one guy in particular I can think of (obviously won't say who), who came on here shouting NOOB and telling people to search and ranting at everything that was even vaguely rantable at, and it was clear that he just enjoyed it. Now, though, after a couple of years on here he's one of the most helpful members I know. He has tons of patience and tons of thanks to show for it. I see him around now and then and we usually say hello, and I have to admit that it's nice to think that maybe showing him how to deal with a newb quietly and calmly may have had some effect. Maybe not, but either way I'm glad he got there eventually.
Either people stay and eventually become more chilled, or they leave in anger or get booted for trolling/swearing/abusing etc..
I have faith in the majority.
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Heheh, you're referring to me, aren't you?
Yea, you just have to find that balance between being insulting and helpful. That way they are less likely to make the same mistake again. It's never a good idea to just hand over the information right away, since that teaches them absolutely nothing. It's like that old proverb saying that you can give a man a fish and feed him for a day, but if you teach him to fish, you can feed him for life.
cajunflavoredbob said:
Heheh, you're referring to me, aren't you?
Yea, you just have to find that balance between being insulting and helpful. That way they are less likely to make the same mistake again. It's never a good idea to just hand over the information right away, since that teaches them absolutely nothing. It's like that old proverb saying that you can give a man a fish and feed him for a day, but if you teach him to fish, you can feed him for life.
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Hahaha nah mate - I wasn't referring to you. You're still a troll
This sort of thing happens all the time in automotive forums, oldsters get super cranky from answering the same questions over and over and new people get mad because they're told to use search literally every time they have a question valid or not. You're probably going to find that this is an issue no matter where you go on the internet.
The only time I've seen this mostly resolved is on a forum where moderation of user behavior is swift, brutal, and pretty impartial, and registration to the forum costs $10. Not likely to work on a forum such as this.
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To compliment and support what cajunflavoredbob mentioned, please read my signature, you may now understand the nature of XDA:
This is and always will be a site for developers, pure and simple. Without them we are nothing, without them there would be no reason for XDA Developers to exist; we should never ever forget that. Without them this place would not be called XDA-Developers but something else, e.g Mobile Phone User Support Services For Ungrateful Nerds.
XDA is about developing and is for developers. Any user that recognises that will gain the most benefit from this site
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Android78822 said:
xda is for developers and users.
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cajunflavoredbob said:
No, it isn't. That's where the confusion comes from. This is a developer forum that we allow non-developers to be a part of. The catch is that you have to actually participate and be a part of the community to get any level of respect here. We don't appreciate people coming here just to turn us into a support forum. If you want tech support, call your carrier. If you want to be a part of a community, come here.
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Jesus! A quick search would have brought up like 20+ threads just like this one. All of them with the same answer. You could have googled Asshats with tudes and XDA would have been your first answer. Read the rules! Post only when posted at! Never wear white after labor day, and some other stuff that is off topic!!!!
Here is something I don't understand. Yes this site might be for developers, but without users developers would server no purpose so that claim that this isn't for both users and developers seems counter productive. I myself haven't gotten around to making 10+ posts just to justify my rooting knowledge.
Yet the fact remains that without users the developers wouldn't really need to even have a website like this or it would be private which it's clearly not. How many bigger developers actually live off of their user donations?
Just my two cents, but I disagree.
hi,
what is the answer?
NFC for RAZR? y/n?
what about on ICS???
thanks.........
E110 said:
hi,
what is the answer?
NFC for RAZR? y/n?
what about on ICS???
thanks.........
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This is a question, so should be in the "Q&A" forum, not here - although I'm sure a Mod will move it quickly enough.
I'm not going to answer your question as it took me less than 10 seconds and Google to find the answer - so I'm sure you can do the same.
Read the XDA Rules and search before asking ...
excuse me dear......
I had opened many tabs from different sub forum of here... and I mistaked about correct place...
please move it... thanks...
I had searched many in google... but i didn't find answer...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=motorola+razr+nfc
Lesicnik1 said:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=motorola+razr+nfc
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Exactly the same link I put under the word "Google" on my post - if the OP had been bothered to look.
I get pi$$ed off with people on here who claim to have searched - when it is so obvious that they haven't at all.
What it comes down to is they actually don't know how to word the search correctly so as to get a decent result.
Sent from my Inspire 4G using xda app-developers app
@ SimonTS
Sir,
I know how to search and az I told I searched before open the topic :|
but it's obscure :|
read this page:
nfcworld.com/nfc-devices/motorola-droid-razr/
-----------------------
The Motorola Droid Razr has not been advertised as an NFC handset, but a teardown has revealed it carries an NXP PN544 NFC controller chip.
-----------------------
and comments that is it's below:
Q: Yea, but are we saying that with ICS the RAZR will have NFC enabled?
A: I don't think anyone knows the answer to that yet...
So........
you don't have to learn I do :|
but it's obscure, so I ask it
E110 said:
Q: Yea, but are we saying that with ICS the RAZR will have NFC enabled?
A: I don't think anyone knows the answer to that yet...
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I think that you have answered your own question as well as anybody on XDA possibly can. Nobody knows - although the chip is in the phone, it may never be accessible to software, whether it is GB, ICS or JB.
SimonTS said:
I think that you have answered your own question as well as anybody on XDA possibly can. Nobody knows - although the chip is in the phone, it may never be accessible to software, whether it is GB, ICS or JB.
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So if I'm reading all of this correctly, you're magic 'Google search'(Complete with the extra douche topping of your little animated superiority video) produced no actual answers? God forbid that someone comes onto an Android developer's message board to find out if someone here has an inside scoop, so to speak.
Not everybody is as mighty with the Google as you are, not every Google search returns the same result. You have to word your searches correctly, and some people are bettet than others. It used to be that you came onto message boards and could ask a question like this and the answer would be 'Well, it looks like the phones have the proper hardware, but it's going to require an OS level bit of code before anyone can use it, and nobody has given an actual timeframe for when this will be done, if ever.'. Now, it's a bunch pf snarky A-holes trying to see who can deliver the killing blow.
It was a legitimate question, and this was a legitimate forum to post it in. Your special Google search still didn't really answer the question, and it didn't answer the question from the perspective of Android developers, who would be MY first resource if I were looking, too. If you don't like the question being asked, then for God's sake, don't read the fracking thing. There is no law of physics that dictats that you can't pass up a post on here without reading it. I don't really understand people like you who get their panties in a twist because someone posted a question on a message board. How did this question being posted here impact your life? Me, U can't stand condescending rude people, especially in places where people go for help, so I like to call them out on it.
Mikey1969 said:
So if I'm reading all of this correctly, you're magic 'Google search'(Complete with the extra douche topping of your little animated superiority video) produced no actual answers? God forbid that someone comes onto an Android developer's message board to find out if someone here has an inside scoop, so to speak.
Not everybody is as mighty with the Google as you are, not every Google search returns the same result. You have to word your searches correctly, and some people are bettet than others. It used to be that you came onto message boards and could ask a question like this and the answer would be 'Well, it looks like the phones have the proper hardware, but it's going to require an OS level bit of code before anyone can use it, and nobody has given an actual timeframe for when this will be done, if ever.'. Now, it's a bunch pf snarky A-holes trying to see who can deliver the killing blow.
It was a legitimate question, and this was a legitimate forum to post it in. Your special Google search still didn't really answer the question, and it didn't answer the question from the perspective of Android developers, who would be MY first resource if I were looking, too. If you don't like the question being asked, then for God's sake, don't read the fracking thing. There is no law of physics that dictats that you can't pass up a post on here without reading it. I don't really understand people like you who get their panties in a twist because someone posted a question on a message board. How did this question being posted here impact your life? Me, U can't stand condescending rude people, especially in places where people go for help, so I like to call them out on it.
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I'm awfully sorry to have offended your sensibilities, but who the f**k do you think you are? You sign up to XDA and the very first post you put is to resurrect a thread that is 3 1/2 months old - not to contribute anything useful, but simply to try and pick a fight?
I actually commented on the OP predominantly because it was clearly in the wrong forum - that is what the Q&A or the device specific forums exist for.
I also ended the thread with;-
I think that you have answered your own question as well as anybody on XDA possibly can. Nobody knows - although the chip is in the phone, it may never be accessible to software, whether it is GB, ICS or JB.
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which is no different to what you just posted. It is obvious that the OP doesn't use English as his first language, so trying to get all technical is of no use. The OP 'Thanked' me for my post, so he obviously had no problem with it, and he hasn't been back on here since as he is one of the many who sign up here, ask one question and are never seen again.
As for your comment about the XDA Noob Video, I didn't create that, but I personally feel that everyone who joins XDA should be forced to watch the entire thing and read the whole page of forum rules as well so that this place was able to keep to the goodness it has achieved and maybe lose a lot of the people who sign up nowadays simply to demand answers as they feel they are 'entitled' to an immediate response from people who help out on here for free in gaps from real life.
Righto, that's enough. Question answered, playtime over.
Closed.