*** EDIT ***
Please click THIS link (then click the I need an answer button) to ask Microsoft to resolve this issue
*** EDIT ***
People love to say that we should all give Microsoft a break. WP7 is new, they are releasing improvements.
Yes, this may be true for silly things like copy-paste and multi-tasking. These will be coming in the future. woot.
The real issue are the features that will never be coming because Microsoft have decided we're all too stupid to ever have a need for them.
Allowing users to manage their own file system is a major one and has vast implications. I don't think Microsoft will ever open up the file system because they haven't designed it as a file system that is ever meant to be accessed by users.
We've all heard that this means you wont be able to get certain file types onto your phone throuigh any means other than email or download.
We all understand by now that we will never be able to use the phone as a portable storage device.
What most users don't understand though is this:
If you have ebooks/comics on your computer, you will most likely never be able to read them on your device.
Instead: you will have install an application that will make you re-purchase them from the internet. There are some ebook readers that will allow you to download free eboks from places like project Gutenberg, so we'll all have to either enjoy reading Black Beauty and anything else that was written before 1950, or we will have to re-purchase books we already own. The same will go for your cbz/cbr files.
Does this sound like a money making racket to you? It does to me!
You will never get a 3rd party application that can load external files (that aren't images) - Hoping for a hiking app that can load those GPX routes you have on your harddrive? - You're better off getting an android.
You will never be able to swap out memory cards. You will never be able to upgrade your phones storage (unless you format it and start again)
You will not have a computer in your pocket. You will have a powerful brick that has been severely cripled. Thankyou Microsoft
There is some hope. Microsoft could create a shared space/partition on the phone that allows users to manage the files within, and allows applications to access it. This could be done while still keeping the rest of the areas in the phone secure. As developers we need to petition Microsoft to allow the platform to become as powerful as we need it to be.
We don't want another Kin.
We want an ultra-portable computer that is simple and easy to use when it needs to be, but is also powerful and flexible at other times as well.
If you care about the future of this platform, please go to this forum and petition Microsoft to not forget about us power users and to build flexibility into the platform
AceofSpades25 said:
We want an ultra-portable computer that is simple and easy to use when it needs to be, but is also powerful and flexible at other times as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why not just buy a device running an OS that gives you these things already? All the "power users" on WM didnt stop its failure, so I dont see MS caring too much about that demographic.
efjay said:
Why not just buy a device running an OS that gives you these things already? All the "power users" on WM didnt stop its failure, so I dont see MS caring too much about that demographic.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because my new work phone has to run WP7. No choice there. I am a software engineer and it is being seen as the business phone of the future.
Also, it is a joy developing for Microsoft platforms. Using managed code in visual studio envoronments is heaven. I don't think I could be bothered to write using the low level code needed for Android.
So I want to develop for WP7, but I also Microsoft to open it up and make it more powerful
People keep going back and forth about things like copy&paste or multitasking but hardly anybody understands what really matters.
People just don't get what "file system access" means. They're either too lazy to think about it or not intelligent enough.
It's not about digging through folders. No "normal" user wants to do that. It's about ease of use, which is important to everyone.
The lack of file system access makes the user experience a nightmare. Not because you can't dig through folders, but because you cant just copy a file like an ebook to the phone and read it there. Instead, you will need complicated workarounds like emailing files to yourself.
Other things will even remain impossible.
FINALLY someone who understands what really matters.
AceofSpades25 said:
People love to say that we should all give Microsoft a break. WP7 is new, they are releasing improvements.
Yes, this may be true for silly things like copy-paste and multi-tasking. These will be coming in the future. woot.
The real issue are the features that will never be coming because Microsoft have decided we're all too stupid to ever have a need for them.
Allowing users to manage their own file system is a major one and has vast implications. I don't think Microsoft will ever open up the file system because they haven't designed it as a file system that is ever meant to be accessed by users.
We've all heard that this means you wont be able to get certain file types onto your phone throuigh any means other than email or download.
We all understand by now that we will never be able to use the phone as a portable storage device.
What most users don't understand though is this:
If you have ebooks/comics on your computer, you will most likely never be able to read them on your device.
Instead: you will have install an application that will make you re-purchase them from the internet. There are some ebook readers that will allow you to download free eboks from places like project Gutenberg, so we'll all have to either enjoy reading Black Beauty and anything else that was written before 1950, or we will have to re-purchase books we already own. The same will go for your cbz/cbr files.
Does this sound like a money making racket to you? It does to me!
You will never get a 3rd party application that can load external files (that aren't images) - Hoping for a hiking app that can load those GPX routes you have on your harddrive? - You're better off getting an android.
You will never be able to swap out memory cards. You will never be able to upgrade your phones storage (unless you format it and start again)
You will not have a computer in your pocket. You will have a powerful brick that has been severely cripled. Thankyou Microsoft
There is some hope. Microsoft could create a shared space/partition on the phone that allows users to manage the files within, and allows applications to access it. This could be done while still keeping the rest of the areas in the phone secure. As developers we need to petition Microsoft to allow the platform to become as powerful as we need it to be.
We don't want another Kin.
We want an ultra-portable computer that is simple and easy to use when it needs to be, but is also powerful and flexible at other times as well.
If you care about the future of this platform, please go to this forum and petition Microsoft to not forget about us power users and to build flexibility into the platform
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
once u get file system root access, u can change alot of things
but since i'm not going to go there anymore (winmo is enough lol), i would just prefer ms lets us have a simple windows explorer that blocks out the system files.
i'm not interested in dissecting your DLLs just to take a look, i just want to get my files, whatever file it is, INTO THE PHONE!
The biggest problem with WP7:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Sad thing is people are willing to accept mediocrity. They're best solution to everything WP7 is to say , its coming. Or they down play another OS.
crow26 said:
The biggest problem with WP7:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Archives?? (e.g. rar/zip/ace etc.)
Game save files??
Bluetooth??
FTP Managers??
Download utilities??
Torrents??
vetvito said:
Sad thing is people are willing to accept mediocrity. They're best solution to everything WP7 is to say , its coming. Or they down play another OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Completely agree!
vetvito said:
Sad thing is people are willing to accept mediocrity. They're best solution to everything WP7 is to say , its coming. Or they down play another OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In this case, you can't even say it's coming. This is the single biggest problem with WP7, it makes the OS all but useless and it will never be solved, because it's all about protecting copyrighted content. They don't care that the user experience is a nightmare, as long as they can lock down their content.
That's why closed systems suck.
You know how easy it is to copy or sync anything (!!!) to an Android phone? A breeze. And you get the choice! A simple drag&drop? Or do you prefer a sync software like Windows Media Player? You have more than one computer that you want to sync with? No problem. The open OS does it and it's incredibly easy and user friendly.
Microsoft must change their policies before it's too late. We don't want another Apple.
I can't believe that this arguement is still going.
We had all of this when they first announced WP7. Have people not done their research?!?!?
It sounds to me like you're all expecting too much from an OS designed FOR THE MASSES not people as technical as us.
Windows Embedded Compact (7) was announded at the same time but people seem to have forgotton about that. IT is designed for people like us...well enterprise mainly. Allowing file system access, installation of 3rd party apps etc and also having some of the features of WP7.
Here's some past links:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=705248
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=706387
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedded/en-us/products/windowsce/compact7.mspx
crow26 said:
In this case, you can't even say it's coming. This is the single biggest problem with WP7, it makes the OS all but useless and it will never be solved, because it's all about protecting copyrighted content. They don't care that the user experience is a nightmare, as long as they can lock down their content.
That's why closed systems suck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nows the right time for the dev community to petition Microsoft. They have a forum for this and they *say* they are listening to our feedback.
Just like the Android developers did, if there are enough of us asking for it, they will have to listen.
http://forums.create.msdn.com/forums/98.aspx
@welki1979
You don't get it.
It's not about digging through folders. No "normal" user wants to do that. It's about ease of use, which is important to everyone.
The lack of file system access makes the user experience a nightmare. Not because you can't dig through folders, but because you cant just copy a file like an ebook to the phone and read it there. Instead, you will need complicated workarounds like emailing files to yourself.
Other things will even remain impossible.
"The masses" don't want to jailbreak their phones. They don't want complex workarounds. They just want their stuff on the phone, but WP7 doesn't let them!
File system access is NOT a "pro" feature! It's a feature for "the masses", because it makes the phone easier to use.
welki1979 said:
I can't believe that this arguement is still going.
We had all of this when they first announced WP7. Have people not done their research?!?!?
It sounds to me like you're all expecting too much from an OS designed FOR THE MASSES not people as technical as us.
Windows Embedded Compact (7) was announded at the same time but people seem to have forgotton about that. IT is designed for people like us...well enterprise mainly. Allowing file system access, installation of 3rd party apps etc and also having some of the features of WP7.
Here's some past links:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=705248
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=706387
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedded/en-us/products/windowsce/compact7.mspx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Welki... it does not complicate the UI or make the phone any more difficult to use to allow the user the *option* of managing their file system if they choose to do so.
You say we should use WEC, but where are all the great devices that run it. We don't want a full blown version of windows on a device, we want something sexy and finger friendly (like WP7) that is powerful and unlimited at the same time.
This isnt too much to ask for, it could be done easily by MS
AceofSpades25 said:
Welki... it does not complicate the UI or make the phone any more difficult to use to allow the user the *option* of managing their file system if they choose to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not even about managing files. Just look at Android: You never have to dig through folders and arrange files. The OS does everything for you.
(of course you have the option to do it, but that's not the point here)
On Android, it doesn't matter where the files are located on the phone. What does matter is how easy it is to put them onto the phone.
That's why file system access is important. Android makes it incredibly easy to put any content onto the phone, because it allows file system access and does the job of indexing the files for you.
"Normal" users don't want to dig through folders. But they want their content on the phone and they don't want silly workarounds like emailing files to themselves, just because the phone doesn't allow file system access.
crow26 said:
It's not even about managing files. Just look at Android: You never have to dig through folders and arrange files. The OS does everything for you.
(of course you have the option to do it, but that's not the point here)
On Android, it doesn't matter where the files are located on the phone. What does matter is how easy it is to put them onto the phone.
That's why file system access is important. Android makes it incredibly easy to put any content onto the phone, because it allows file system access and does the job of indexing the files for you.
"Normal" users don't want to dig through folders. But they want their content on the phone and they don't want silly workarounds like emailing files to themselves, just because the phone doesn't allow file system access.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
when you say "normal" users are you speaking of the the majority or the few who are on xda. because ios has never allowed file access and where is it today?
I am speaking about the majority. Those who don't want silly workarounds. Those who just want their phone to work.
I don't know whether you've ever used an iPhone, but the lack of file system has in fact created huge issues there. Every time you download an app you have to figure out how the f*ck to get the content onto the phone, because the ***** phone doesn't allow file system access and ***** iTunes doesn't support the files you want.
"Normal" people don't want that. They don't want to figure out how to put the content onto the phone every time they download a new app. They just want it to work.
Apple and Microsoft don't care about the users. They just want to protect their copyrighted music and videos, that's why the don't allow users to touch the files on the device. They don't give a ***** about the users.
With an Android phone, no matter what content you want to put onto the phone, you just drag&drop it there and you're done. Everyone knows how to do that, because everyone knows how to use USB flash drives.
Or if you want to download a document from the web, you just click "download" and you're done. It's immediately there in all the apps that are associated with that document (e.g. Adobe Reader), because Android does everything for you. It's incredibly simple.
You can't do that with an iPhone or WP7 phone.
rruffman said:
when you say "normal" users are you speaking of the the majority or the few who are on xda. because ios has never allowed file access and where is it today?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are a lot of people that jail break ios precisely because of this.
It is popular, because they got the UI right at a time when there were no better options. Because of this, loads of developers got on board, with so many devs, the app concept became the bigest driver for iPhone sales.
If IOS had allowed file access, it would only be in a stronger position. As it is, many technical users hate the platform because of this. It is starting to loose out to android because of this
Many people hate iOS for the lack of file system access. Not only technical users. It would have been a much bigger issue, but iOS had no competition in 2007/08, that's why people put up with the problem.
Today, there's a lot of competition and people aren't going to accept such issues, which make the user experience suck.
I would say this is probably down to developers.
iTunes for idevices does allow transfering of files, just not file system access. For example: programs like VLC...BUT vlc had to be approved by Apple and Apple allowed direct file transfering via iTunes.
This will probably come from MS with apps too. The feature is probably there but not without a suitable app for it....correction -- - "suitable APPROVED app" (that can plug into Zune)
Going on what you're saying 'normal users' would prefer this method...not file system access....like those with iPhones (seeing as it's easier to drag into iTunes/Zune than go through folders).
For the time being, there's also things like Dropbox which is used by a lot of people I know with iPhones and Android devices to transfer files....I have it on my iPad, and the link on my HD2 so I can transfer stuff (seeing as bluetooth transfers between apple and non-apple devices doesn't work)
Related
an official statement from Redmond itself
Windows Phone 7 Series will not initially offer copy and paste; instead, we try to solve the most common uses for copy and paste via single-tap action. For example, people often want to take an address and view it on a map, highlight a term in the browser and do a search or copy a phone number to make a call. Instead of the user manually doing a copy and paste in these scenarios, we recognize those situations automatically and make them happen with just one touch. In our early testing people have been pleased with this approach, but we're always listening to feedback and will continue to improve our feature set over time based on what we hear.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/19/microsoft-windows-phone-7-series-will-not-initially-offer-copy/
so what do you guys think now??
So, in other words, copy & paste is officially NOT coming.
I think that this is just PR bull**** which restates what was said at MIX - no copy and paste, and a lame attempt to present smartlinking (which is undoubtedly great stuff) as a solution to this. Saying that something will be done "over time" is equivalent to saying nothing. They don't even specifically say that copy/paste will be done "over time", it's just a vague "our feature set will improve". Of course it will. It just doesn't answer the question.
I frankly don't understand how anyone can buy this as an answer.
In any case, now that PR department took control of the issue, we'll never know anything about it until it happens (which may be 1 week, 3 years after release, or never).
Shasarak said:
So, in other words, copy & paste is officially NOT coming.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its coming just not anytime soon
havox22 said:
its coming just not anytime soon
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They didn't say even this much, you're imagining it because they worded it this way.
if u look at pass history of these companies, when it says a feature is not needed they are really saying is they wont have it available so we will say its not needed till we have it ready.
by the comment they have made they will at some point add copy and paste.
here are some companies that have said stuff like this:
APPLE =
copy and paste is not needed.
ipods users dont need to watch movies as they only use it for music.
ipod users dont need games as they only use it for music.
Sony =
playstation 3 does not need dual shock in there pads as most people dont want it.
motion games are gimicks.
In the examples you're talking about, it took years to implement those things.
vangrieg said:
In the examples you're talking about, it took years to implement those things.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
true but as microsoft have had copy and paste in wm already, hopefully they have a good idea how to do it and it wont take as long as a company starting from scratch.
saying this i expect it to be about a year after wm7 launch, as im expecting ms to do the same as apple by updating the firmware every year.
havox22 said:
its coming just not anytime soon
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Source, please.
WP7 is just the iPhone 2007 edition, Micro$oft way !
NO multitasking
NO proper copy and paste
NO way to install from microSD
vangrieg said:
In the examples you're talking about, it took years to implement those things.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
woot woot whats a couple years for copy & paste?
Shasarak said:
Source, please.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
im the source just not very reliable sorry, but im my dream world its coming 100% in this 1 not so much
havox22 said:
an official statement from Redmond itself
Windows Phone 7 Series will not initially offer copy and paste; instead, we try to solve the most common uses for copy and paste via single-tap action. For example, people often want to take an address and view it on a map, highlight a term in the browser and do a search or copy a phone number to make a call. Instead of the user manually doing a copy and paste in these scenarios, we recognize those situations automatically and make them happen with just one touch. In our early testing people have been pleased with this approach, but we're always listening to feedback and will continue to improve our feature set over time based on what we hear.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/19/microsoft-windows-phone-7-series-will-not-initially-offer-copy/
so what do you guys think now??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One thing we need know ,Silverlight is come from WEB,it is sandboxed application,for security reason ,more functions of Silverlight is blocked.
Wp7s hasn't copy and paste that is limited by Silverlight 3, Silverligth don't support full Clipboard access ,and don't support trust applicatioin mode. But we need
cheer Silverlight 4 can do that ,so if wp7s finally using the Silverlight 4,USB mode,Copy and paste and file system access can be work on wp7s theoretically
Ganondolf said:
if u look at pass history of these companies, when it says a feature is not needed they are really saying is they wont have it a
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
:-D sure, ... and I really hate those people who always agressively wants, wants, wants something, somebody must, must, must do something ... not, MS may do itselt what HE wants , and he will do it well - really new beautiful things (not only) borns in pains...
WP7 will still suck if it can't run apps from outside a single source...
iPhone is locked to app store, iPhone sucks.
Android has a market but you can still use APKs, Android=Win
mpg187 said:
WP7 will still suck if it can't run apps from outside a single source...
iPhone is locked to app store, iPhone sucks.
Android has a market but you can still use APKs, Android=Win
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can. You just have to be a developer
mpg187 said:
WP7 will still suck if it can't run apps from outside a single source...
iPhone is locked to app store, iPhone sucks.
Android has a market but you can still use APKs, Android=Win
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To bad the media these days runs articles about how unsure Android apps are, and why people should never install apps from outside the trusted market (read: Google Market).
At least Microsoft offers the ability to have five free apps on the marketplace per year. This should cover the hole you otherwise would used 3rd part source installations for.
Also I'm sure they'll offer some business plan, for in-house distribution. Wait and see
Well I am not a developer (yet?) and I still want to install whatever apps I want and not be controlled.
Windows Mobile was a better product that the iPhone but was losing because it was underadvertised, then MS goes and takes everything they were doing right and undoes it...
mpg187 said:
Well I am not a developer (yet?) and I still want to install whatever apps I want and not be controlled.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You'll have to try another planet then.
Consumers are to be protected. It's for your own good. And trust me, if a application isn't on the marketplace, you don't want to install it anyway.
Windcape said:
You'll have to try another planet then.
Consumers are to be protected. It's for your own good. And trust me, if a application isn't on the marketplace, you don't want to install it anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I probably do. There are probably apps that MS would pull. I use APKs on Android for apps I can't find on the Market.
mpg187 said:
I probably do. There are probably apps that MS would pull. I use APKs on Android for apps I can't find on the Market.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What sort of apps, and why aren't they on the market?
Enlighten us.
The following are the features NEEDED before I adopt WP7 as my new smartphone OS.
1. Rooted device.
2. Rooted windows share Local network access.
3. File explored => than iFile
3. Phone theme app similar to winterboard for iPhone.
4. DLNA in all forms.
5. True windows live Mesh.
6. Zune updated via explorer, no tethered or untethered syncing needed.
7. Push everything.
8. App pirating scene => apptrackr.org for iPhone.
9. Video game console emulation from all the greats.
10. IE download manager.
11. Video chat.
These needs are almost already met with my iPhone. Being a avid windows 7 and windows media center user I can see a huge advantage of adopting WP7. Devs, can u tell me how many features I can check off this list? I know some are possible with 6.x already. Feel free to add to this list for wanted features that are out of the norm.
Also I don't think I like the idea of ROM cooking. I might not understand it though, since ROM means read only memory does it mean that u have to modify your devices os before you install it in your phone? I don't like that at all. I want to be able to modify my os at anytime in explorer like u can with windows 7.
App pirating...oh yeah that's a feature that will be good for the development of the platform. Seesh, people work hard on stuff and generally charge reasonable prices to keep themselves afloat and you demand app pirating!? Dear Microsoft please allow rpoot access to the device so people can find work arounds and steal your client's good work. That's exactly the attitude which stops Microsoft from allowing root access, because its waaaaay to easy to pirate then.
What we really need is a good ad revenue generator (ie Google ads, iAds) so that innovation can be driven by the financial incentive and these guys who dev can get some well earned cash.
Anyways, whats your job? Would you like it if I asked for yur services and then you didn't get paid?
Sorry grouchy this morning. #Rant
Yea. $400 for a phone is fine but then when asked to pay $3 for an app you'll use all the time it's just too much? :facepalm:
......why the hell does a mobile browser need a download manager?
Thats what the iPhone needs to be able to download mp3s or docs from safari. I just want the ability to download a mp3 from the net in the brower and have it show up in my zune media player. The iphone requires a few jailbroken apps to achieve this at the moment.
that's native in the zune music player already you know...
1. Rooted device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought rooting was only used for android. But as far as the unlocking thing, it is device dependent. Several developers are working on finding means to give developers more freedom as well as users with wp7. but it is a work in progress and takes time.
2. Rooted windows share Local network access.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what
3. Phone theme app similar to winterboard for iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does this really have to be said? I mean are you looking for an application that will allow user customization of the start menu like winterboard? If so see post 1. to be frank the theming for wp7 so far is okay but nothing as open as windows mobile. But again we have no idea what the device can really do. It is based on what is found and the extent of what development will lead to.
But if you want winterboard...well get the phone that has it
4. DLNA in all forms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again unsure if wp7 can do that. It may be able to but no idea. We don't know
5. True windows live Mesh.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Isn't live mesh going to be gone soon?
6. Zune updated via explorer, no tethered or untethered syncing needed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dunno if that's really necessary. There may be a program for it most likely. But I don't think its needed in first generation wp7 devices. Heck I much prefer to just drag and drop my files or sync with zune anyway...
7. Push everything.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not everything has to be push...I think that as far as notification goes push may be a hindrance. I do prefer the old system though
8. App pirating scene => apptrackr.org for iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah this is a fail...
9. Video game console emulation from all the greats.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is developer dependent and its tough to say what the emulation scene will be like...
10. IE download manager.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why!? Seriously why!? sorry but that's retarded. I mean how much are you downloading on your phone right now to substantiate a feature like that. remember, wp is the de emphasis of the phone being a computer but performing some basic tasks like all smart phones can do in a different way.
11. Video chat.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It could be a developer making something for that. No one knows
As for the things being met for your iphone, keep your iphone =) if you honestly are looking for information on a platform that isn't released, wait a year until wp7 has some options available...
and for the point of not liking rom cooking, do you even know the process? No you don't. May wanna read up on it...
...
IMHO, almost everything you listed I know personally I won't be using my phone for that. I don't mind media centric information but there is overload. For suiting my needs (clinical psychology) I may need to browse some psychology databases, a dedicated pdf reader, an ebook reader, the ability to record notes from class, patient intake, and so on. But again specifics differ according to user of the device.
Thanks for the info domineus, what I mean by "Rooted windows share Local network access." is the abiltiy for my phone's whole file system to show up when I click on the network in explorer on one of the PCs in my house. The iPhone does this with ubuntu when it is jailbroken right now. Also I want the abiltity to telnet/ssh into all my home network PCs to move files around and delete them or whatever. Basicly I want total control of my home network in the command line. This feature is lacking with my iPhone right now. I bet telneting is possible in windows mobile 6.x right now isn't it?
As far as the download manager thing goes. I don't know what u use your phone for but I am constantly getting new mp3s, pics, video, and docs offline everyday. The itunes library on the phone is encrypted right now so u can't just drop and drag in iFile to add to the itunes library. Also the default safari you can't save target as to get the file. I think you can with windows mobile 6.x though, I did it at work once. Half the time I'm not around a pc to sync anyways, I feel like tethered syncing is a chore. I am pretty sure you can't "save target as" in IE with the WP7 emulator.
Yeah Ive decided....you should get the iPhone...Im pretty happy to see how the community goes but for you to make demands a lot of which are stupid or overly tailored to your specific needs and hence serve no purpose on a public forum, well thats pretty darn silly.
gotta agree its a bit solipsistic
especially on a platform that is newly developed and IMHO we have no idea how its going to develop or the clientele requirements
Skatingn330 said:
[...]Also I want the abiltity to telnet/ssh into all my home network PCs to move files around and delete them or whatever. Basicly I want total control of my home network in the command line. This feature is lacking with my iPhone right now. I bet telneting is possible in windows mobile 6.x right now isn't it?[...]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uhm, telnet? Yes, through 3rdparty apps of course. Telnet is a very simple thing to use, but you still need somewhere to telnet TO and something responding on the other end (on your computer(s)). So, the "feature" you want is not something that is related to the device, but rather something you need to setup on your LAN. You would only need a telnetapp on your device
Though I must say... Unless I was in a DIRE need for exposing my WHOLE system for outside access I would NEVER even dream of using a telnetserver on ANY of my systems (except on my linuxbox, hehe). Its a disaster waiting to happen There are fare better choices to use than telnet.
Regarding the file-sharing (SMB) you spoke of. Even if we disregard the fact that SMB is not a very secure protocol, the main thing that speaks against that MS would incorporate such a feature is... since MS doesnt even provide filesystem-access ON the device, why should they do it through SMB? I am pretty sure you can forget that one, at least out-of-the-box, maybe if its unlocked and through some obscure 3rdpartyapp.
Just my two cents...
Moving to general.
Skatingn330 said:
The following are the features NEEDED before I adopt WP7 as my new smartphone OS.
1. Rooted device.
2. Rooted windows share Local network access.
3. File explored => than iFile
3. Phone theme app similar to winterboard for iPhone.
4. DLNA in all forms.
5. True windows live Mesh.
6. Zune updated via explorer, no tethered or untethered syncing needed.
7. Push everything.
8. App pirating scene => apptrackr.org for iPhone.
9. Video game console emulation from all the greats.
10. IE download manager.
11. Video chat.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. Might happen, but a strange requirement
2. Don't understand this one?
3. You're not getting this, the phone don't have a traditional filesystem.
3_. You're not getting this either.
4. Microsoft is a promoter of DLNA
5. It's being merged to SkyDrive, and is supported at launch
6. Won't be possible with the explorer, but it will with the Zune desktop client.
7. The notification-system is based on push.
8. Microsoft is a large company with a long history of anti-piracy. You'll might get in trouble here
9. Write some XNA wrapper for it then!
10. I'd suspect there will be a form of management of downloads and downloaded files.
11. None of the 1. generation phones have a camera on the front side, so you'll have to wait. But software-wise it's supported from day one.
smuppy said:
Though I must say... Unless I was in a DIRE need for exposing my WHOLE system for outside access I would NEVER even dream of using a telnetserver on ANY of my systems (except on my linuxbox, hehe). Its a disaster waiting to happen There are fare better choices to use than telnet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im pretty new to networking but wouldnt using a VPN serve the purpose of what he is wanting? Im not familiar with telnet hardly at all (expect for watching star wars episode 4 that i stumbled across google, haha) but it sounds like a VPN would do what hes looking for. Which WM, the iphone (from what i understand anyways), and im hoping WP7 does. Plus its much MUCH more secure then telnet in even its most basic form of PPTP.
Hi,
i am new in here and just interested in what the new wp7 platform is able to do. I do not want to have a finish solution for it, only to know if it is possibly in general or not. I first would like to focus on two aspects ( other questions are welcomed as well)
I read, that wp7 is based on 6.5 with a few bought in features and that wp7 is quite limited in its opportunities anyway. I am asking that moreover, because microsoft said they will update their system by their own ( so no providers or manufacturers ). Which makes it a very interesting system for me, when it will be supported on the devices for quite long time, and not like the producers do just for a year, so they can sell new phones.
So my questions:
1. will wp7 be able to support a proper offline text to speech function (like in the old voice command)with its new bought in speech recognition. Not online like vlingo or google voice
2. is it possible to integrate a good working mass storage system like on android ( Without registry hacking or something else and not only for music or photos. I mean real data)
I always was a faithfully ms user but with every product i got more and more disappointed and i really would like to give them one more chance, but the device till now is completely not useful. They kicked out everything what was good on windows mobile and brought in everything bad from android and ios. So please tell me that there is still a chance this system will be great one time.
Gesine22 said:
2. is it possible to integrate a good working mass storage system like on android ( Without registry hacking or something else and not only for music or photos. I mean real data)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Probably not?
doministry said:
Probably not?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could anybody confirm this.
Actually, I know I will not be able to deal without USB mass storage. I therefore made it a condition whether or not I will keep my WP7 phone.
I like WP7. Still, if I'm sure that it cannot have USB mass storage one day then I will probably move to Android.
arturobandini said:
Could anybody confirm this.
Actually, I know I will not be able to deal without USB mass storage. I therefore made it a condition whether or not I will keep my WP7 phone.
I like WP7. Still, if I'm sure that it cannot have USB mass storage one day then I will probably move to Android.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't count it out. iPods and other Apple products allow mass storage. I believe MS would too.
Cool. Thanks
It's all speculation, there is zilch of the detailed info from MS on the upcoming update.
They don't want you to fiddle with registry that's a given, so there might be a hack around it, but the recent events surrounding the USB storage registry hacks on the PC suggest MS does not want you to do that if you want to keep your internal system intact on the phone.
Someone posted this comment on Microsoft Answer regarding his Love/Hate relationship with WP7
http://social.answers.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/windowsphone7/thread/cf7a9cc1-47e0-46ca-9d7a-b3601d20f1e6
I am in the same state of mind and fully agree with what is said here.
Considering that none of us here work for Microsoft, we all really have no idea what's possible. So your question is... well... difficult to answer.
The only answer we could possible give to your question is: anything is possible.
Anything Microsoft and it's team decide to do, is certainly possible, and more. The same goes for Apple's team, and Google's team. They can do whatever they want, its their platform, and their money.
Considering that you seem to be missing things from the Windows Mobile platform, since Windows Phone 7 is by the same company that did that platform, then everything you want and suggested is definitely possible. That's the bottom line.
Gesine22 said:
Hi,
i am new in here and just interested in what the new wp7 platform is able to do. I do not want to have a finish solution for it, only to know if it is possibly in general or not. I first would like to focus on two aspects ( other questions are welcomed as well)
I read, that wp7 is based on 6.5 with a few bought in features and that wp7 is quite limited in its opportunities anyway. I am asking that moreover, because microsoft said they will update their system by their own ( so no providers or manufacturers ). Which makes it a very interesting system for me, when it will be supported on the devices for quite long time, and not like the producers do just for a year, so they can sell new phones.
So my questions:
1. will wp7 be able to support a proper offline text to speech function (like in the old voice command)with its new bought in speech recognition. Not online like vlingo or google voice
2. is it possible to integrate a good working mass storage system like on android ( Without registry hacking or something else and not only for music or photos. I mean real data)
I always was a faithfully ms user but with every product i got more and more disappointed and i really would like to give them one more chance, but the device till now is completely not useful. They kicked out everything what was good on windows mobile and brought in everything bad from android and ios. So please tell me that there is still a chance this system will be great one time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First, wp7 is not built on 6.5, its new code.
1. Pretty sure the speech to text is built into the phone. Are you talking about something basic like "call Wife mobile" or something more profound like a college dissertation? I haven't tried to push it, but so far it hasn't failed me once.
2. I don't think you will see a real solution for this for quite a while. Microsoft is determined to have you use zune and skydrive for file transfers. I would be suprised to find a solution for this in the next year (other than a hack)
nrfitchett4 said:
2. I don't think you will see a real solution for this for quite a while. Microsoft is determined to have you use zune and skydrive for file transfers. I would be suprised to find a solution for this in the next year (other than a hack)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly. They push you to use MS services even if you don't have to.
Just like Google. That's why it's hard to imagine any mass storage soon.
I'm in the same boat.
Why do people want to use their phones for mass storage?
In order to do so, you have to reserve enough space on the phone to carry the files. So if you have a 16GB phone, you may only be able to use 8GB of it for your photos, music, videos etc, in order to keep 8GB free just in case you might want to transport 8GB of data around? Doesn't make sense to me.
All you have to do is use the 32GB memory stick dangling from your keychain, and fill your phone up to the brim with lovely media.
Weirdos!
Every user is different.
Many users will need the USB mass storage.
Whether you use it or not, at least let this option.
It's a smartphone after all.
Jim Coleman said:
Why do people want to use their phones for mass storage?
In order to do so, you have to reserve enough space on the phone to carry the files. So if you have a 16GB phone, you may only be able to use 8GB of it for your photos, music, videos etc, in order to keep 8GB free just in case you might want to transport 8GB of data around? Doesn't make sense to me.
All you have to do is use the 32GB memory stick dangling from your keychain, and fill your phone up to the brim with lovely media.
Weirdos!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To easy and naturally transfer files between PC <> Phone.
And why do you ask this way? It's a personal thing "why". For some it was useful.
This whole mass storage issue is moot! MS have decided that the cloud is the way to go for syncing stuff, a method that I and my friends/ colleagues find very convenient, I do appreciate it might not suit everybody, in which case please do not buy a wp7 phone unless MS change their minds
@ nrfitchett4
Thanks for your answer. To point one i mean, not speech to text. I meant text to speech. I really miss that. I have to cycle or or to walk every day and with every weather. Therefore it is really useful when you phone read your text message or mails, or is saying to you who calls before you always have to get the device out of your pocket. For example when you are wearing gloves. So i have always just use a headset. The voice command for wm worked very well.
@ all others *g*
i think the mass storage problem ist not a problem about storage. I think people do not really understand how deep a software like zune or itunes attacks your personal rights. For the moment it is not that case. But microsoft, apple etc... and their partner companies lets say (sony, universal or what ever exactly know what is on your pc and that fact combined with a tight copyright policy could be quite dangerous for a lot of people. Moreover, they stick you on this way to their system. Its a different if you can not open a specific file on your mobile device because their is no app or whatever for or you even can not download to your device because ms or apple do not like the company who provides these kinds of files.
In addition i do not know where you live but i am travelling a lot by train or stay in urban areas, and than try get a proper internet connection with your phone. Its a disaster. So you can imagine how useful a skydrive is in such a situation.
Further can you imagine a business customer ( who ms wants to reach ) register for a windows live id to download their firm files to the device. I do not. No normal Business user wants to have a zune player to transfer their documents or whatever. Also, ms offers that sharepoint strategy. I really would prefer to have my confidential data on my computer and than on my device.
-------------
But thats all not my question. I just wanted to know if this platform has a real chance ( even most of it must be done by yourself, like on wm, anyway )All forums are full of missing parts on the platform and new ideas, but i would like to know if it will be possible to bring it in again?
So you perhaps should list all the things which will definitely not work (beside flying and cooking *g* )
Gesine22 said:
i think the mass storage problem ist not a problem about storage. I think people do not really understand how deep a software like zune or itunes attacks your personal rights. For the moment it is not that case. But microsoft, apple etc... and their partner companies lets say (sony, universal or what ever exactly know what is on your pc and that fact combined with a tight copyright policy could be quite dangerous for a lot of people. Moreover, they stick you on this way to their system. Its a different if you can not open a specific file on your mobile device because their is no app or whatever for or you even can not download to your device because ms or apple do not like the company who provides these kinds of files.
In addition i do not know where you live but i am travelling a lot by train or stay in urban areas, and than try get a proper internet connection with your phone. Its a disaster. So you can imagine how useful a skydrive is in such a situation.
Further can you imagine a business customer ( who ms wants to reach ) register for a windows live id to download their firm files to the device. I do not. No normal Business user wants to have a zune player to transfer their documents or whatever. Also, ms offers that sharepoint strategy. I really would prefer to have my confidential data on my computer and than on my device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is the point and I believe these things will be added.
Cloud is not solution for everything.
Gesine22 said:
@ nrfitchett4
Thanks for your answer. To point one i mean, not speech to text. I meant text to speech. I really miss that. I have to cycle or or to walk every day and with every weather. Therefore it is really useful when you phone read your text message or mails, or is saying to you who calls before you always have to get the device out of your pocket. For example when you are wearing gloves. So i have always just use a headset. The voice command for wm worked very well.
@ all others *g*
i think the mass storage problem ist not a problem about storage. I think people do not really understand how deep a software like zune or itunes attacks your personal rights. For the moment it is not that case. But microsoft, apple etc... and their partner companies lets say (sony, universal or what ever exactly know what is on your pc and that fact combined with a tight copyright policy could be quite dangerous for a lot of people. Moreover, they stick you on this way to their system. Its a different if you can not open a specific file on your mobile device because their is no app or whatever for or you even can not download to your device because ms or apple do not like the company who provides these kinds of files.
In addition i do not know where you live but i am travelling a lot by train or stay in urban areas, and than try get a proper internet connection with your phone. Its a disaster. So you can imagine how useful a skydrive is in such a situation.
Further can you imagine a business customer ( who ms wants to reach ) register for a windows live id to download their firm files to the device. I do not. No normal Business user wants to have a zune player to transfer their documents or whatever. Also, ms offers that sharepoint strategy. I really would prefer to have my confidential data on my computer and than on my device.
-------------
But thats all not my question. I just wanted to know if this platform has a real chance ( even most of it must be done by yourself, like on wm, anyway )All forums are full of missing parts on the platform and new ideas, but i would like to know if it will be possible to bring it in again?
So you perhaps should list all the things which will definitely not work (beside flying and cooking *g* )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agree on the points, I could easily see the devices from MS pop-up running WP7 home edition and WP7 business edition if the platform takes off.
doministry said:
That is the point and I believe these things will be added.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Going on statements from the head of WP7 development on why Zune syncing is the only supported scenario, you won't see this options added.
adesonic said:
This whole mass storage issue is moot! MS have decided that the cloud is the way to go for syncing stuff, a method that I and my friends/ colleagues find very convenient, I do appreciate it might not suit everybody, in which case please do not buy a wp7 phone unless MS change their minds
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So I suppose your company hasn't any policy forbidding to upload any confidential document to a server.
That's fine, but once again, let the choice to other users. It's also a question of freedom. Thanks for respecting this.
Gesine22 said:
In addition i do not know where you live but i am travelling a lot by train or stay in urban areas, and than try get a proper internet connection with your phone. Its a disaster. So you can imagine how useful a skydrive is in such a situation.
Further can you imagine a business customer (who ms wants to reach ) register for a windows live id to download their firm files to the device. I do not. No normal Business user wants to have a zune player to transfer their documents or whatever. Also, ms offers that sharepoint strategy. I really would prefer to have my confidential data on my computer and than on my device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
Could not agree more.
now that we can sideload app's (something like a jailbreak)I am really interested how fast Microsoft will release his first wp7 update to fix this
ceesheim said:
now that we can sideload app's (something like a jailbreak)I am really interested how fast Microsoft will release his first wp7 update to fix this
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have a suspicion MS wanted this hack out there. MS has never been much of a locked down company, like Apple is. So I see something like this happening with their blessing.
ceesheim said:
now that we can sideload app's (something like a jailbreak)I am really interested how fast Microsoft will release his first wp7 update to fix this
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They won't i think imo, Look at the Xbox, We get wave bans/Yearly updates even though they have teams following the forums for what's going on.
Jtags were aloud on-line for years until recently.
I'm just happy i have another device in C# so i can continue to make games and apps to make myself laugh.
MS thrive off hackers and modders imo telling them what's wrong and what people want without risking doing it themselves or overloading this first release scaring people off like the previous WM versions. it's all open source in a hackers mind, but the hacker can't sell the modified ROM can he , MS just release an update with more features*clever really*, where's the white line ? they just wait to see what's popular, same like FSD did for the xbox imo with all the media functionality.
*thats my 2pence *
The bigger issue is that the buzz from all the 'I want local outlook sync because I am scared of the cloud' brigade and the 'I want file explorer' gang is going to kill the platform before long, Microsoft are going to have to hack about with wp7 to meet their needs which is a shame, because if people took the time to think they would realise that:
1. Cloud solutions for syncing stuff can be simple and free ( hotmail, gmail mail forwarding)
2. Their emails are in the cloud already
3. Skydrive is a simple and free way to sync docs (although office integration needs to improve)
4. In terms of privacy, if you have something private on a laptop that you connect to the Internet and someone really, really wants it, they will get it!
5. Privacy again, with a cloud connected handset that you lose, you have the option of remotely erasing it.
I feel like I am in a minority that likes the way ms are going but I worry that because of all the negative rubbish on these forums and others, wp7 will die and I will have to go back to android or worse still ios
adesonic said:
The bigger issue is that the buzz from all the 'I want local outlook sync because I am scared of the cloud' brigade and the 'I want file explorer' gang is going to kill the platform before long, Microsoft are going to have to hack about with wp7 to meet their needs which is a shame, because if people took the time to think they would realise that:
1. Cloud solutions for syncing stuff can be simple and free ( hotmail, gmail mail forwarding)
2. Their emails are in the cloud already
3. Skydrive is a simple and free way to sync docs (although office integration needs to improve)
4. In terms of privacy, if you have something private on a laptop that you connect to the Internet and someone really, really wants it, they will get it!
5. Privacy again, with a cloud connected handset that you lose, you have the option of remotely erasing it.
I feel like I am in a minority that likes the way ms are going but I worry that because of all the negative rubbish on these forums and others, wp7 will die and I will have to go back to android or worse still ios
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here. I like what MS is trying to do with WP7 but I fear the worse because Balmer isn't resolved like Jobs is.
Actually I don't think it really matters because what the Market is loaded with right now is pure crap. If MS lets this continue, forget about this platform surviving.
WP7 is great, I just have technophilia lol
adesonic said:
The bigger issue is that the buzz from all the 'I want local outlook sync because I am scared of the cloud' brigade and the 'I want file explorer' gang is going to kill the platform before long, Microsoft are going to have to hack about with wp7 to meet their needs which is a shame, because if people took the time to think they would realise that:
1. Cloud solutions for syncing stuff can be simple and free ( hotmail, gmail mail forwarding)
2. Their emails are in the cloud already
3. Skydrive is a simple and free way to sync docs (although office integration needs to improve)
4. In terms of privacy, if you have something private on a laptop that you connect to the Internet and someone really, really wants it, they will get it!
5. Privacy again, with a cloud connected handset that you lose, you have the option of remotely erasing it.
I feel like I am in a minority that likes the way ms are going but I worry that because of all the negative rubbish on these forums and others, wp7 will die and I will have to go back to android or worse still ios
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't worry WP7 won't die... ease of use/speed will not need to be sacrificed for outlook connectivity or some file access
Very true I mean the info. Is more secure on microsoft or Google server than it is on ur personal computer. Don't know why people are so scared of cloud based integration. It makes life a lot easier for people who dont wanna deal with syncing stuff on their own.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
MartyLK said:
Same here. I like what MS is trying to do with WP7 but I fear the worse because Balmer isn't resolved like Jobs is.
Actually I don't think it really matters because what the Market is loaded with right now is pure crap. If MS lets this continue, forget about this platform surviving.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The reason the market is so flooded with rss readers and flashlight apps is because that is about all that is currently possible with the current api.
Allow multi tasking, access to the compass, side loading of files into apps and a whole world of app opportunity opens up
AceofSpades25 said:
The reason the market is so flooded with rss readers and flashlight apps is because that is about all that is currently possible with the current api.
Allow multi tasking, access to the compass, side loading of files into apps and a whole world of app opportunity opens up
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't say "type" of app. I was talking about the quality of those apps and the devs who are crooks being allowed to post false and misleading apps.
mwako said:
They won't i think imo, Look at the Xbox, We get wave bans/Yearly updates even though they have teams following the forums for what's going on.
Jtags were aloud on-line for years until recently.
I'm just happy i have another device in C# so i can continue to make games and apps to make myself laugh.
MS thrive off hackers and modders imo telling them what's wrong and what people want without risking doing it themselves or overloading this first release scaring people off like the previous WM versions. it's all open source in a hackers mind, but the hacker can't sell the modified ROM can he , MS just release an update with more features*clever really*, where's the white line ? they just wait to see what's popular, same like FSD did for the xbox imo with all the media functionality.
*thats my 2pence *
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just to clarify on the jtag thing, it was most definitly not years, more like weeks. When the first freeboot was released it was only a few weeks later which Microsoft made changes to ban anyone in a few hours after logging on live with a jtag. Sure you could use the king kong shader hack and run a bit of custom code long before freeboot but it was nothing amazing and you could not get online with the latest dash.
I think that Microsoft only really takes quick action when it poses a serious security threat, as with the jtag it allowed custom code and modified xex's to be run online whereas with just modded firmware you cannot, and modded firmware mostly just leads to piracy and a few cheaters with modded games. So as for WP7 at the moment I dont think that they will rush an update out just to patch up this hole.
Too much investment to let it die
adesonic said:
The bigger issue is that the buzz from all the 'I want local outlook sync because I am scared of the cloud' brigade and the 'I want file explorer' gang is going to kill the platform before long, Microsoft are going to have to hack about with wp7 to meet their needs which is a shame, because if people took the time to think they would realise that:
1. Cloud solutions for syncing stuff can be simple and free ( hotmail, gmail mail forwarding)
2. Their emails are in the cloud already
3. Skydrive is a simple and free way to sync docs (although office integration needs to improve)
4. In terms of privacy, if you have something private on a laptop that you connect to the Internet and someone really, really wants it, they will get it!
5. Privacy again, with a cloud connected handset that you lose, you have the option of remotely erasing it.
I feel like I am in a minority that likes the way ms are going but I worry that because of all the negative rubbish on these forums and others, wp7 will die and I will have to go back to android or worse still ios
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi all
I don't think M$ will let WP7 die. They've invested too heavily in it to let it go. I am in the minority camp here but I think that a lot of average users quite like what is on offer. I've shown my HTC Mozart to a few people who haven't ever used a smartphone and they were all "Wow! What is that? It looks amazing!"
I think it will do OK.
Cheers
andrew-in-woking
MartyLK said:
I didn't say "type" of app. I was talking about the quality of those apps and the devs who are crooks being allowed to post false and misleading apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it's the same for any app store. iTunes app store probably has the same proportion of good apps to bad as does windows phone, it's just iTunes has 100 times more apps.
andrew-in-woking said:
Hi all
I don't think M$ will let WP7 die. They've invested too heavily in it to let it go. I am in the minority camp here but I think that a lot of average users quite like what is on offer. I've shown my HTC Mozart to a few people who haven't ever used a smartphone and they were all "Wow! What is that? It looks amazing!"
I think it will do OK.
Cheers
andrew-in-woking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i've shown my phone to a bunch of iPhone users and they like it's look and feel. i don't have them throwing their iPhones away, but they definitely see it as a good phone and perhaps when it comes to them renewing their contracts (most of them have 3GS), they might think twice about just getting "another iPhone".
Where the hell all the talk of WP7 dying come from weeks after it's launch lol...
The marketplace is riddled with people rushing to get an APP out there. Will be like anything else every few days or so when we see a good app coming out.
Yipes.
adesonic said:
The bigger issue is that the buzz from all the 'I want local outlook sync because I am scared of the cloud' brigade and the 'I want file explorer' gang is going to kill the platform before long, Microsoft are going to have to hack about with wp7 to meet their needs which is a shame, because if people took the time to think they would realise that:
1. Cloud solutions for syncing stuff can be simple and free ( hotmail, gmail mail forwarding)
2. Their emails are in the cloud already
3. Skydrive is a simple and free way to sync docs (although office integration needs to improve)
4. In terms of privacy, if you have something private on a laptop that you connect to the Internet and someone really, really wants it, they will get it!
5. Privacy again, with a cloud connected handset that you lose, you have the option of remotely erasing it.
I feel like I am in a minority that likes the way ms are going but I worry that because of all the negative rubbish on these forums and others, wp7 will die and I will have to go back to android or worse still ios
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No the whole point of using Microsoft product is the way all their BUSINESS products offer tight and nice integration. I have no problems with cloud per say (I still don't trust them with security but that is just me I guess). Many people have invested heavily in Outlook and their work and life harmony depends of Outlook. Not giving them the ability to simply sync to Outlook is just pure lazyness. I am a software developer and I can see how they have taken simple route to eliminate sync issues.
You want ppl to use cloud contacts and calendar? Fine, ask Microsoft to first provide 50% of the available fields in Outlook! It's missing the most basic field such as Anniversary for a contact! The WP7 phone has that field but the Windows Live contact doesn't.
I doubt MS will rush to close this hole, if indeed, it's classed as a hole at all. Simple fact is, this sort of stuff is good for them, generally speaking. Particularly since they'll be able to block pirated apps from using live services, it deters piracy and promotes homebrew software to fill the gaps that would take them a lot of time and effort to fill. It's much more cost-effective to get a good base out there, and let the community pick up the slack and build on top of what they provide.
The fact is there are still other, much stronger protections that negate some of the traditional disadvantages a company may have with exploits of this kind. The protection that prevents people from porting WP7 to phones that have not had the licence paid for - means MS always gets their cash. The integration of the cloud also means they can detect pirated apps much more easily - for example, a Game accessing Xbox Live can have it's legitimacy checked server-side. Has that user purchased that game from the Marketplace? No? Deny them access. It adds a premium to staying genuine, and therefore, many will. That leaves the prime use for sideloading as homebrew, unverified software. Now, because it's unverified, they don't have to go to the trouble of supporting it, ensuring backwards compatibility as they move forward at a rapid pace, but yet their platform can still do *everything* it should be able to. And frankly, right now, MS know that profit is secondary to Market Share. A strong side-loading homebrew development scene can make serious inroads to the "open" environments that they are competing against, particularly Android.
The Gate Keeper said:
it's the same for any app store. iTunes app store probably has the same proportion of good apps to bad as does windows phone, it's just iTunes has 100 times more apps.
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Click to collapse
Right now the WP7 app store is averaging 100%. The very first app I buy from this new store and it's false. That never happened with Android Market or iPhone App Store. But it is true, I need to give it time to get filled up. I'm just peeved at the bad del I got and the lack of a response from the money grabber.
MartyLK said:
Right now the WP7 app store is averaging 100%. The very first app I buy from this new store and it's false. That never happened with Android Market or iPhone App Store. But it is true, I need to give it time to get filled up. I'm just peeved at the bad del I got and the lack of a response from the money grabber.
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Click to collapse
I thought all apps came with a trial period?
hounsell said:
I doubt MS will rush to close this hole, if indeed, it's classed as a hole at all. Simple fact is, this sort of stuff is good for them, generally speaking. Particularly since they'll be able to block pirated apps from using live services, it deters piracy and promotes homebrew software to fill the gaps that would take them a lot of time and effort to fill. It's much more cost-effective to get a good base out there, and let the community pick up the slack and build on top of what they provide.
The fact is there are still other, much stronger protections that negate some of the traditional disadvantages a company may have with exploits of this kind. The protection that prevents people from porting WP7 to phones that have not had the licence paid for - means MS always gets their cash. The integration of the cloud also means they can detect pirated apps much more easily - for example, a Game accessing Xbox Live can have it's legitimacy checked server-side. Has that user purchased that game from the Marketplace? No? Deny them access. It adds a premium to staying genuine, and therefore, many will. That leaves the prime use for sideloading as homebrew, unverified software. Now, because it's unverified, they don't have to go to the trouble of supporting it, ensuring backwards compatibility as they move forward at a rapid pace, but yet their platform can still do *everything* it should be able to. And frankly, right now, MS know that profit is secondary to Market Share. A strong side-loading homebrew development scene can make serious inroads to the "open" environments that they are competing against, particularly Android.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agree with the above.
Security is an important aspect of anything that gets used by anyone, at any given moment around the world. For developers of applications that get purchased through a digital storefront, like Microsoft’s Windows Phone 7 Marketplace, making sure that it’s not easy, next to impossible in fact, to steal apps and put them on a device free-of-charge is just as important. But, as WPCentral reports, it looks like the Digital Rights Management (DRM) security tools set in place by Microsoft have been cracked!
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Fortunately, though, the program that is being used to do so is not known to the general public. In point of fact, the “white hat” developer that created it is just showing it as a proof of concept. If the program were to make it out into the world, then it would be possible for some people out there to strip the DRM from applications available in the Windows Phone 7 Marketplace, and then download them for free.
As of the time of this writing, Microsoft hasn’t made an official comment regarding the security hole. WPCentral has been in contact with Brandon Watson from Microsoft, but so far they have not heard back from him. The video demonstrating the proof of concept program making short work of DRM for the Windows Phone 7 applications can be viewed below.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=flqB9WCkGiQ
The depressing thing is it's so disturbingly easy. I stumbled on it getting HTC Apps to work on my Samsung, and it's far too easy. I think it'll probably be a matter of time before piracy becomes public on WP7, so to speak.
And for any doubters as to whether it is genuine (seen a few in my travels) - It works. A paid-for, commercial application running in the Windows Phone 7 emulator, after being deployed from a cracked XAP.
Still, it's good to see that WP7 seems to attract the sort of user that isn't a rabid pirate. Despite the ground being laid for some time, and despite people having independently developed methods of piracy, No-one has yet put such information into the public domain, seeking a way of solving the problems, rather than exploiting them.
Microsoft have made an official comment, by email to every developer, on the 16th November, titled "Windows Phone 7 App Protection". It included a white paper on the topic which pretty much said it was easy to steal apps but was a limited risk because of a developer unlocked phone is needed, a limit to how many side loaded apps, basically a couple of steps which would turn off the casual pirate.
I suppose what's new here is a simple one click tool that exploits MS's oversight in this statement: "all signed applications on an unlocked phone still require a license acquired through Marketplace to run". Basically they didn't realise that if you strip the signature, no license is required.
Another thing is they shouldn't have made paid apps on unsecured URLs, they should have put more effort into a secure download system like Apple or pretty much anyone else has.
I guess the main problem, that was a fatal flaw in the design of the platform, is they don't allow native apps only .NET apps, which means almost every single app available can easily be decompiled back to source form. It's a much bigger problem if other developers can steal your code than a few users stealing your app. It's for this reason WP7 can't be taken seriously as a development platform. Oh also it means 3rd party apps launch too slow compared to the built in ones, 1 minute to launch Tetris what a joke.
If you could somehow exclude the paid apps from this "FreeMarketplace" it would be really helpful for people who live in countries where the marketplace isn't as good content wise as in the usa.
That way everyone could download those free apps without the region problems.
These are just my thoughts on this. I'm not a developer or anything so I don't really know if this is actually possible without hurting the developers in any way.
indiekiduk said:
Microsoft have made an official comment, by email to every developer, on the 16th November, titled "Windows Phone 7 App Protection". It included a white paper on the topic which pretty much said it was easy to steal apps but was a limited risk because of a developer unlocked phone is needed, a limit to how many side loaded apps, basically a couple of steps which would turn off the casual pirate.
I suppose what's new here is a simple one click tool that exploits MS's oversight in this statement: "all signed applications on an unlocked phone still require a license acquired through Marketplace to run". Basically they didn't realise that if you strip the signature, no license is required.
Another thing is they shouldn't have made paid apps on unsecured URLs, they should have put more effort into a secure download system like Apple or pretty much anyone else has.
I guess the main problem, that was a fatal flaw in the design of the platform, is they don't allow native apps only .NET apps, which means almost every single app available can easily be decompiled back to source form. It's a much bigger problem if other developers can steal your code than a few users stealing your app. It's for this reason WP7 can't be taken seriously as a development platform. Oh also it means 3rd party apps launch too slow compared to the built in ones, 1 minute to launch Tetris what a joke.
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Click to collapse
You still need a dev unlocked device to sideload the cracked apps. Chevron7 doesn't really do the job as the phone relocks itself every week? which gets a bit annoying and might put people off, and also delete all the sideloaded apps with it. Imagine that, all your save games, app settings and history being reset every week.
Unless someone improves on Chevron7 I don't think piracy is much of a danger.
thats a great revolution, wp is now jailbreaked )) have funnn
digger1985 said:
You still need a dev unlocked device to sideload the cracked apps. Chevron7 doesn't really do the job as the phone relocks itself every week? which gets a bit annoying and might put people off, and also delete all the sideloaded apps with it. Imagine that, all your save games, app settings and history being reset every week.
Unless someone improves on Chevron7 I don't think piracy is much of a danger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it relocks, it doesn't delete any sideloaded apps, it just prompts you to uninstall when you attempt to run them (though you can escape from the prompt of course). Also, you can avoid it relocking by putting the phone in Flight Mode before syncing.
hounsell said:
I stumbled on it getting HTC Apps to work on my Samsung, and it's far too easy.
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THAT is very useful. Sharing HTC, LG and Samsung oem apps across platforms should be allowed.
hounsell said:
If it relocks, it doesn't delete any sideloaded apps, it just prompts you to uninstall when you attempt to run them (though you can escape from the prompt of course). Also, you can avoid it relocking by putting the phone in Flight Mode before syncing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Any chance of sharing the (Free) HTC Youtube app? That's the only I desire desperately.
This "proof of concept" shows only one thing (according to youtube video) - guys intercepted search requests from Zune, parse the responce and make a simple app to duplicate Zune's functionality. Anyone who can spend 30 minutes to WireShark and couple hours for coding can do the same app (actually, I've already posted a direct URL's to the marketplace apps on this forum).
As far as I understand, that's it, nothing more. No DRM crack, no "apps cracked", no "security hole" - just nothing!
As for .NET apps vulnerability: does anybody here have an experience to disassemble and compile back a really complicated and large application, obfuscated by the latest commercial version of Dotfuscator (actually, the wp7 devs can obtain it for free until March 2011)? I've tried once (of course I'm not a "some hat - white or black, just a pro developer)... Results are negative. In theory it's possible but... We saw a lot (no, A LOT!) of commercial native apps for win32, mac etc. successfully cracked and hacked. Just visit any pirate tracker for proof. So, it's not a "big .NET problem".
digger1985 said:
Any chance of sharing the (Free) HTC Youtube app? That's the only I desire desperately.
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Click to collapse
Without real hack (hacking license verification etc.) it's not possible. Simple downloader described here as "WP7 ultimate crack" can't help. If you want you may search my posts here, I've already posted direct link to HTC's youtube xap...
I think it's real.
Another guy also did the same
http://forums.create.msdn.com/forums/t/70704.aspx
He cracked an app on request and loaded into the emulator.
sensboston said:
Without real hack (hacking license verification etc.) it's not possible. Simple downloader described here as "WP7 ultimate crack" can't help. If you want you may search my posts here, I've already posted direct link to HTC's youtube xap...
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I believe Hounsell managed to run the HTC stocks app on a Samsung
http://www.neowin.net/news/htc-wp7-app-ported-to-other-wp7-hardware
digger1985 said:
I think it's real
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Click to collapse
Real what? Read my post above... If someone "hacked" non-obfuscated small application by removing or blocking IsTrial() requests, it's not a real hack.
Ask this guy to "hack" NeedForSpeed Undercover ;-)
sensboston said:
As for .NET apps vulnerability: does anybody here have an experience to disassemble and compile back a really complicated and large application, obfuscated by the latest commercial version of Dotfuscator (actually, the wp7 devs can obtain it for free until March 2011)? I've tried once (of course I'm not a "some hat - white or black, just a pro developer)... Results are negative. In theory it's possible but... We saw a lot (no, A LOT!) of commercial native apps for win32, mac etc. successfully cracked and hacked. Just visit any pirate tracker for proof. So, it's not a "big .NET problem".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You didn't see any source code for commercial native apps because there are no automatic tools that do it, but you can see source code for all WP7 apps, using a free utility called Reflector. You choose the app, and it generates a visual studio project containing the code, simple as that.
In my experience developers don't readily use .NET obfuscators because they generally introduce instability which leads to increased development time.
indiekiduk said:
You didn't see any source code for commercial native apps because there are no automatic tools that do it, but you can see source code for all WP7 apps, using a free utility called Reflector.
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Huh? HexRays has an ARM decompiler which can produce readable C. It is possible to get back to similar to the source equivalent (with a lot of manual tweaking). If MS used a strong packer on the native code then it would make reversing it much harder/time consuming. At the end of the day it still needs to execute.
I've used .NET Reflector for years (and I do have another one, for Java/.NET written by my friend - sorry, can't announce it here).
My question is: have you ever tried to disassemble and re-assemble big, obfuscated application? Or you just theorizing? I did, and it's very complicated/not possible (at least by using Reflector tool only). This method is good for small non-obfuscated application only.
For the topic: here is my "proof of concept"
- use this url to browse Zune market for apps:
http://catalog.zune.net/v3.2/en-US/apps?q=Ebook Reader&clientType=WinMobile 7.0&store=zest
replace Ebook%20Reader to any your search term, don't exactly know about "store" field and en-US. You'll get an XML in response with found apps info.
To get an app full download url, I believe, you'll need some additional requests but I don't have time (and interest!) now to play with Wireshark and track Zune's and WP marketplace requests...
sensboston said:
This "proof of concept" shows only one thing (according to youtube video) - guys intercepted search requests from Zune, parse the responce and make a simple app to duplicate Zune's functionality. Anyone who can spend 30 minutes to WireShark and couple hours for coding can do the same app (actually, I've already posted a direct URL's to the marketplace apps on this forum)
As for .NET apps vulnerability: does anybody here have an experience to disassemble and compile back a really complicated and large application, obfuscated by the latest commercial version of Dotfuscator (actually, the wp7 devs can obtain it for free until March 2011)? I've tried once (of course I'm not a "some hat - white or black, just a pro developer)... Results are negative.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? You should be able to decompile it and recomplie it with Reflector though, right? Even if the actual meaning of the code is hard to deduce after that point.....The CIL is stack-based, so you should be able to break it up into functions if nothing else.....
sensboston said:
This "proof of concept" shows only one thing (according to youtube video) - guys intercepted search requests from Zune, parse the responce and make a simple app to duplicate Zune's functionality. Anyone who can spend 30 minutes to WireShark and couple hours for coding can do the same app (actually, I've already posted a direct URL's to the marketplace apps on this forum)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ya, this guy is lame. Let's ignore him and get back to work getting real stuff done.
n0psl3d said:
It is possible to get back to similar to the source equivalent (with a lot of manual tweaking) ... At the end of the day it still needs to execute.
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This ^^
Reflector is great, but it's not a one-stop-recompile-shop. It still takes a massive amount of restructuring to get even an un-obfuscated application back together.
Also, WP7 business logic is almost always in the cloud. For 90% of applications, XAPs are basically just UIs - especially with the intense restrictions imposed on development right now.
digger1985 said:
Any chance of sharing the (Free) HTC Youtube app? That's the only I desire desperately.
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Click to collapse
I've got it running, but it doesn't function at the moment because HTC decided to use their own native functions tied to their driver, rather than the inbuilt .NET classes. All the network requests the app makes fails. Thinking of possible ways round this, but it would probably end up being so much work, it might just be quicker to create a clone.
Blade0rz said:
This ^^
Reflector is great, but it's not a one-stop-recompile-shop. It still takes a massive amount of restructuring to get even an un-obfuscated application back together.
Also, WP7 business logic is almost always in the cloud. For 90% of applications, XAPs are basically just UIs - especially with the intense restrictions imposed on development right now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This. Reverse-engineering, and even modifying an existing app is one thing in Reflector, but copy/pasting code will never work in large quantities, it's just not that accurate in my experience. So sure, your tips and tricks might not be safe, but your app as a whole isn't going to be just duplicated and reuploaded to the marketplace.
Of course, "cracked" for piracy is a whole other matter.