There is just one disadvantage I have found of not using HTC's TouchFlo UI: when holding the phone to my ear there is no protection from my (large!) ear's pressing the touchscreen and causing havoc opening programs, etc. Does anyone know of a reg tweak or a third-party app that addresses this, utilising the G-sensor and light sensor and protecting the screen during calls?
AidanBell said:
There is just one disadvantage I have found of not using HTC's TouchFlo UI: when holding the phone to my ear there is no protection from my (large!) ear's pressing the touchscreen and causing havoc opening programs, etc. Does anyone know of a reg tweak or a third-party app that addresses this, utilising the G-sensor and light sensor and protecting the screen during calls?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
BY default I thought in all roms the proximity sensor would turn the screen off when its pressed against our heads so buttons wouldnt get pushed?
If that doesnt work you can always just push the power button... which I sort of do by default for some reason anyway. But... yeah there is a way so the screen turns off when its close to your face. Someone else will chime in with it I'm sure.
AidanBell said:
There is just one disadvantage I have found of not using HTC's TouchFlo UI: when holding the phone to my ear there is no protection from my (large!) ear's pressing the touchscreen and causing havoc opening programs, etc. Does anyone know of a reg tweak or a third-party app that addresses this, utilising the G-sensor and light sensor and protecting the screen during calls?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm using the Titanium version without TouchFlo or Sense, and my screen turns off.
This is absolutely a feature of all versions of the TP2, and works regardless of whether TF is used of not. Have you tried a hard reset? Also, does flipping the phone onto its face during a call activate the speaker phone? This involves the proximity sensor (along with G-Sensor), so it might give you a clue if your proximity sensor is somehow disabled, etc.
I dug around the registry for a second, and found the following values under:
HKLM\Software\HTC\Proximity
Name: ProximityDetectStatus
Value: 0
Base: Decimel
Name: ProximitySensorOn
Value: 0
Base: Decimel
Name: PSensorDebounceTime
Value: 300
Base: Decimel
Name: UnexpectedWakeup
Value: 0
Base: Decimel
Some of the values seem counterintuitive (I would think the "ProximitySensorOn" would be 1, not 0). But in any case, it might help to check your registry settings.
Many thanks for your response.
To answer your questions: I've recently upgraded to WM6.1, but didn't like that and so flashed 6.1 back again, and in fact re-flashed that again the other day, so the machine has been through quite a series of hard resets of late, however to the best of my knowledge I have never had a working during-calls-screen-protect other than the brief period during which I was trying out TouchFlo when I first had the phone.
Yes, flipping the phone to activate the speaker works flawlessly, I use it often.
In my registry under HKLM\Software\HTC\Proximity; "ProximityDetectStatus" "ProximitySensorOn" and "UnexpectedWakeup" are indeed all set at "0". However I do not have an "UnexpectedWakeup" setting. Could this be the problem? If so, I'm afraid I'm a bit of a novice with reg tweeking, so would you mind talking me through setting that value?
AidanBell said:
Many thanks for your response.
In my registry under HKLM\Software\HTC\Proximity; "ProximityDetectStatus" "ProximitySensorOn" and "UnexpectedWakeup" are indeed all set at "0". However I do not have an "UnexpectedWakeup" setting. Could this be the problem? If so, I'm afraid I'm a bit of a novice with reg tweeking, so would you mind talking me through setting that value?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are using Total Commander, go to the appropriate location on the registry, and the first entry is "Add value". Select that, then pick "DWORD", type the name of the value (UnexpectedWakeup). Hit OK, then enter 0 for the value and select OK again.
If you are using another editor besides Total Commander, the process should be the same. I use TC, so I only know that exact process.
Are you flashing to an "official" 6.1 ROM, or a cooked ROM?
Did you run Task29 before flashing the new ROM? This will wipe/format the memory completely, and will sometimes clear up random problems. Its recommended to do this before flashing a cooked ROM, but I don't know if using an "official" ROM is a problem with Task29 or not.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=649191
I'ver never heard of Task29!
However, firstly they were both "official" ROMs, from Vodafone, but secondly it seems the reg tweak has done the trick; the screen now Blanks when in call, as it should do. So all is well.
Many thanks indeed for that.
No problem. Happy to help.
But it was the "UnexpectedWakeup" entry that fixed it? That name/description doesn't really seem to fit. In fact, I can't even imagine what that description even refers to, lol!
AidanBell said:
I'ver never heard of Task29!
However, firstly they were both "official" ROMs, from Vodafone,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know if there are any potential issues with using Task29 and official ROMs, I've only used it with cooked ROMs. Although, it seems like it would work and serve the exact same purpose. Task29 just guarantees that no fragments of the remaining ROM will interfere with the new ROM. It seems to help prevent random issues with cooked ROMs.
They say honesty is the best policy, so let me share with you what I have embarresingly discovered was actually the reason for my problem - especially remembering what this forum is for and that it might perhaps help anyone else with a similar issue:
I was told that a good way of testing the proximity sensor is to press your thumb against the loudspeaker during a call while looking at the screen. This did not work ... until I removed the plastic protection case! I have always had my phone protected by a two-piece plastic\silicon casing, and I've only now discovered that when this is on the phone the proximity sensor fails, but when removed it works perfectly! Thinking back that makes sense because when I first got the phone and was using TouchFlo the phone had no protective casing.
As it happens I've just bought an expensive cradle for the phone for my new car, which requires that I remove the plastic casing in order for it to fit, therefore the timing is good as it means I can now use the phone with a fully-working proximity sensor.
However, having dropped the phone only once in the year that I've owned it, don't you just know that the moment I start using it without the protective casing .... !
Related
I tried flipping the phone over to use speakerphone yesterday and found that it didn't work. I do have PocketShield and ChangeScreen installed - does anyone know if either of these apps can interfere with the flip-over speakerphone feature??
I at first thought the same. Just in case .. I found that the phone has to be perfectly level (g-sensor) and on top of a table or similar flat surface.
itm said:
... I do have PocketShield ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most probably it is cause by PocketSheild. I had it installed before, and causing lots of intermittent problem.. i know PocketShield said it support Tp2... but it dont really works well. end up i removed it and thing back to normal.
You might want to try to disable the "Gesture unlock feature" in PocketShield. Doing that will completely disable g-sensor usage which might be interfering with the flip action of the TP2.
Also try disabling ChangeScreen, as far I know this app will constanlty read the g-sensor to determine orientation, that could also be the cause.
Cross posting my question from PPCGeeks, since there doesn't seem to be a well known fix in the wild, or at least not that I can find with extensive searching anyway.
Is there a CAB or registry hack to disable the keyboard from breaking the WM 6.5 lockscreen? The device unlocks, even if the kb is slid just half an inch. This causes few, but unexpected unlocks while in my pocket.
I'm using Smart Lock 1.9b with the WM 6.5 lock screen option, but this may happen even without Smart Lock, I'm not sure. Smart Lock is broken after this happens until I manually relock the phone, though. Maybe it gets confused about what the current state of the lock is?
I have tried the registry-based HKLM\HARDWARE\DEVICEMAP\KEYBD\SlideWakeup solution from the Touch Pro, but my TP2 already had this and set to 0. Is there a solution for us Rhodium users yet?
I have also tried the imnuts Disable Slide Keyboard Wakeup.cab that someone recommended over at PPCG and it had seemingly no effect.
Thanks!
There is a cab called disable slide wake up. It prevents the keyboard, or more commonly magnets in holder making the phone think the keyboard has slid out, from waking up the phone and undoing the lock.
OR:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Hardware\DeviceMap\Keybd]
Create a new dword "SlideWakeup" with a decimal value of 0 and soft reset
jonto said:
OR:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Hardware\DeviceMap\Keybd]
Create a new dword "SlideWakeup" with a decimal value of 0 and soft reset
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol someone didn't read my original post, did they?
aguenter said:
I have tried the registry-based HKLM\HARDWARE\DEVICEMAP\KEYBD\SlideWakeup solution from the Touch Pro, but my TP2 already had this and set to 0. Is there a solution for us Rhodium users yet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
aguenter said:
Cross posting my question from PPCGeeks, since there doesn't seem to be a well known fix in the wild, or at least not that I can find with extensive searching anyway.
Is there a CAB or registry hack to disable the keyboard from breaking the WM 6.5 lockscreen? The device unlocks, even if the kb is slid just half an inch. This causes few, but unexpected unlocks while in my pocket.
I'm using Smart Lock 1.9b with the WM 6.5 lock screen option, but this may happen even without Smart Lock, I'm not sure. Smart Lock is broken after this happens until I manually relock the phone, though. Maybe it gets confused about what the current state of the lock is?
I have tried the registry-based HKLM\HARDWARE\DEVICEMAP\KEYBD\SlideWakeup solution from the Touch Pro, but my TP2 already had this and set to 0. Is there a solution for us Rhodium users yet?
I have also tried the imnuts Disable Slide Keyboard Wakeup.cab that someone recommended over at PPCG and it had seemingly no effect.
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So...do you have the Verizon/CDMA version? And you're saying that the well-known registry fix doesn't work for the Verizon version?
Because...this registry fix is the solution for Rhodium users -- the one that works for most people...most GSM people, anyway. I've been running 6.5 on my GSM TP2 for a long time and this registry fix has always worked for me.
But maybe not for CDMA?
The above registry edit fixed the slide (magnet) unlock issue in my Sprint TP2 just fine, but I'm still running WM6.1 if that makes a dif.
For me, the SlideWakeup entry did not exist prior to the change.
MCbrian said:
So...do you have the Verizon/CDMA version? And you're saying that the well-known registry fix doesn't work for the Verizon version?
Because...this registry fix is the solution for Rhodium users -- the one that works for most people...most GSM people, anyway. I've been running 6.5 on my GSM TP2 for a long time and this registry fix has always worked for me.
But maybe not for CDMA?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I have the Verizon CDMA Worldphone RHOD500, and i'm running a WM 6.5 cooked ROM (EnergyROM Leo) which I'm assuming added the SlideWakeup key which does not work.
If you enable a 4 digit pin, the lock screen doesn't unlock when the keyboard is opened. The Rhodium's touch screen is so much better than Wizard and Kaiser's, it's really easy to enter the 4 numbers with the quickness...
Disable stylus removal from unlocking device?
Hi - I've tried this fix, but my phone unlocks/wakes when it is gently bumped, and I've narrowed it down to a gfaulty stylus mechanism. The phone only wakes up/unlocks incorrectly when the stylus is in – I believe the phone mistakenly thinks the stylus has been removed so it wakes up. It doesn't happen when the stylus is already out.
Does anyone know how to stop the phone waking/unlocking when the stylus is removed. I've searched the registry but can't find anything.
Hi Guys,
I am currently using a Cell Pro Rom and I find that my it keeps flipping to landscape too often when I have my phone in portrait.
I always have to give it a shake to fix itself and it does get a bit annoying.
Does anyone know how to fix this?
(I remember I may have (not certain) that I might have changed the Sensor registry when I first got it, but I am not certain, does anyone know the default measurements?)
Any ideas are welcomed.
Many thanks in advance!
Did you ask in the Cell Pro ROM thread? Seems a more logical place to ask. I tried that one out and did not have the issue you are describing. Good ROM too.
There is a G-Sensor Calibration in Settings- System.
kimtyson said:
Did you ask in the Cell Pro ROM thread? Seems a more logical place to ask. I tried that one out and did not have the issue you are describing. Good ROM too.
There is a G-Sensor Calibration in Settings- System.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm fearing the fact that I may have changed something in the registery as I got all excited the day i got the phone and went through the tweaks in the wiki.
I am not certain if I made any changes regarding the g sensor so I was wondering if anyone knows the defaults or if there is a .cab or ROM to flash to system restore.
Any clues?
Many thanks in advance
To me the g-sensor is a gimmick. I find it annoying and totally useless so I've turned mine off altogether. If I want the screen to rotate I push the keyboard out. I really don't see any use for it.
I did think the only use I had for it was the face down hands free thing but have since decided that I'd be quite happy to push a button for that. Hardly a hassle.
Can anyone help me with a way of stopping the virtual keyboard from appearing whenever I open text programs in portrait mode? Very often I only want to read a file, not edit, however the virtual keyboard constantly and irritatingly appears every time I open such a file. It's there any way of stopping this, please?
Or alternatively, would there be a way of switching off the virtual keyboard altogether? I almost never use it, preferring always to use the hardware keyboard.
I was wondering about this too. I almost always use the hardware (that is sorta the point of getting a TP2) and it is really annoying how the virtual keyboard always pops up on its own, and 90% of the time I have to close it right away. I could see how it would be nice on a all touch screen phone, but for the TP2 it's a really annoying feature.
I'm hoping for a solve for this annoying problem also!
Trying to resolve this too
This is the closest solve so far:
defaultdotxbe said:
i use fakesip
although its an all-or-nothing solution, it completely replaces the soft keyboard, supposedly you can switch back by selecting a different soft keyboard, but that doesnt work for me and i have to uninstall to get the soft keyboard back (which is fine for me since i never use the soft keyboard)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Use diamond tweak, and then go to point 20.1 and set the keyboard automatic display to disable and this will stop it from popping up everytime you open your email or sms. Not sure what the registry settings are, but diamond tweak is quite helpful for some of these issues.
Anyone found a registry setting for this yet?
Since this was an annoyance I got used to, I never really thought about it till I saw this thread. Although I do tend to use the on screen keyboard a fair bit.
Anywho, you can go into advancedconfig and under the "Input" tab set "Auto deploy SIP" to disabled. Tried it and it seems to do the trick so far.
Surprised no one noticed this before as I got the impression most people use advancedconfig.
oops, just checked and noticed this doesnt work in opera. hopefully this doesnt apply to anything else!
I've never used advancedconfig, but I might have to check that out if it provides a solution.
...thanks for the reply
By God it seems to work!
Fade2black101 you are a genius!
Many thanks for the fix
This works for me on my Sprint Touch Pro 2 to keep the soft keyboard from popping up automatically:
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\ControlPanel\Sip]
"TurnOffAutoDeploy"=dword:00000001
HD2Tweak works as well.
Does anyone know of a way to ONLY have SIP deploy in Portrait, NEVER when the keyboard is open? That would be my ideal setting, because I do use both, but I hate having to constantly close the SIP in Landscape mode
JimSmith94 said:
This works for me on my Sprint Touch Pro 2 to keep the soft keyboard from popping up automatically:
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\ControlPanel\Sip]
"TurnOffAutoDeploy"=dword:00000001
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Am I supposed to create this entry? I don't see it on my Tilt 2. The extent of my registry editing has only been changing values to existing entries. Do I make the entry name TurnOffAutoDeploy without the quotes right? Case sensitive?
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious...
kiint said:
Does anyone know of a way to ONLY have SIP deploy in Portrait, NEVER when the keyboard is open? That would be my ideal setting, because I do use both, but I hate having to constantly close the SIP in Landscape mode
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh how I wish something like this exists. Unfortunately I'm currently clueless on how to achieve this though.
JVogler said:
Am I supposed to create this entry? I don't see it on my Tilt 2. The extent of my registry editing has only been changing values to existing entries. Do I make the entry name TurnOffAutoDeploy without the quotes right? Case sensitive?
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Basically just create a DWord in the appropriate place which is within the "Sip" folder. Then click on it and make sure the base is set to "Dec." Then under "DWord Data" put the value as "00000001" Mine is set to "1" though so maybe you can set it to that and it'll still work?? Don't really know the process behind all this to be honest
Was using Resco Registry so hopefully whatever you're using is of a similar layout and format.
fade2black101 said:
Oh how I wish something like this exists. Unfortunately I'm currently clueless on how to achieve this though.
Basically just create a DWord in the appropriate place which is within the "Sip" folder. Then click on it and make sure the base is set to "Dec." Then under "DWord Data" put the value as "00000001" Mine is set to "1" though so maybe you can set it to that and it'll still work?? Don't really know the process behind all this to be honest
Was using Resco Registry so hopefully whatever you're using is of a similar layout and format.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oops! forgot to say enter the "TurnOffAutoDeploy" exactly how you see it
fade2black101 said:
Oops! forgot to say enter the "TurnOffAutoDeploy" exactly how you see it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
without the quotes!
Thanks for walking me through that...I didn't think it worked at first, but it's been working fine after my device froze, and I had to reset it. I did a reset after I added the value but I guess it didn't stick or something...FINALLY, no more keyboard popping out!
It seems like I spend more time trying to get my phone to do what I want...than actually using it! One step closer though...
JVogler said:
Thanks for walking me through that...I didn't think it worked at first, but it's been working fine after my device froze, and I had to reset it. I did a reset after I added the value but I guess it didn't stick or something...FINALLY, no more keyboard popping out!
It seems like I spend more time trying to get my phone to do what I want...than actually using it! One step closer though...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know exactly what you mean.. I've had the Wizard and Kaiser before this phone, but because I was at uni I didnt really give a crap bout customising them too much and just got used to how crap the interface was. (especially when drunk!) That's why I had no hesitation bout getting the Touch Pro 2 once it came out. Wish I'd researched it a bit more though as I would have got the HD 2 which came out very soon after (wasn't ready to switch to android at that point). I've been trying to get the Touch Pro 2 perfect tho so haven't really been able to enjoy it properly! Constantly flashing new roms and hard resetting, etc!
On a two year contract and still got a year left, but as soon as it runs out I'm switching to android. I'd get the HTC Desire right now if I could afford it.
On a related issue: Does anyone know a tweak or fix to prevent the display, when the keyboard is closed, from automatically switching to landscape mode when the phone is tilted at a certain angle? I never need this feature and it infuriates me when I'm lying in bed trying to read the phone in portrait mode, and whenever I hit a certain angle it automatically flips over to landscape. I'd love to be able to stop that from happening.
AidanBell said:
On a related issue: Does anyone know a tweak or fix to prevent the display, when the keyboard is closed, from automatically switching to landscape mode when the phone is tilted at a certain angle? I never need this feature and it infuriates me when I'm lying in bed trying to read the phone in portrait mode, and whenever I hit a certain angle it automatically flips over to landscape. I'd love to be able to stop that from happening.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol yeah I get this aswell.. I usually just switch hands!
Try downloading an app called "G-Config" which allows you to add apps to auto rotate. I think theres sum preset ones that you can remove too.
I'm sure there's registry entries that you can delete which would achieve this, but I don't know where. Hopefully someone else can help?
my wife has the att nitro hd, when the screen goes off during a call sometimes nothing including power button will turn it back on. Anyone know of a fix? did the ATT small update fix this?
Actually it comes back on after a long minute or two. Not very helpful if you need the dialpad or keys, etc.
I have just rooted it for her and installed CWM.
I have added a few proximity tweaks to build.prop
gsm.proximity.enable=false (rebooted twice but screen still goes off)
also used the ro.lg.proximity and the mot.lge.proximity (dont recall exact wording) both were set to a value of 5.
I'll have to take alook into the lg hidden dialer menu to see if I can disable this.
I dont like this sensor on my device either, but I have an option in settings to disable it, which makes it bearable.
thanks for the help guys.
I have noticied LG throws together some junky builds, typos, bad english/grammar. Wonky sensors etc. Incorrect kernel build ReadMe's
I thought I recall someone with another device just placing a peice of tape over the sensor. hmmm..worth a try.
cheers.
chrisrotolo said:
gsm.proximity.enable=false (rebooted twice but screen still goes off)
also used the ro.lg.proximity and the mot.lge.proximity (dont recall exact wording) both were set to a value of 5.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Congrats. Today, you learned that most of the "tweaks" found at XDA are utter bull****
aremcee said:
Congrats. Today, you learned that most of the "tweaks" found at XDA are utter bull****
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What about the tweaks that aren't BS? Are they already included in your CM9 builds?
From what I can tell, pretty much the main thing that build.prop is good for is providing information about the system and software (i.e. info about the build). It's not really used much for useful configurations as far as I know.
networks tweaks actually have doubled me download speed.
I still have faith.
but can anyone answer my questions I posted in ICS SLim thread and PM'ed Andasa , no responses yet.
does ICS slim or CM9 have option to keep lcd no during call? and does it work??
what's working not working? I found changelogs but not a working/not working list for CM9.
and has anyone successfully restored a nandroid from ICS to GB without real issues?
thanks guys.
i doubt the ota fixed your issue as the issue is not one that occurs for every nitro.
I can tell you that when I make a phone call they screen stays no.
what's working not working, well, many of us are running it daily with no probs.
as you prolly know, it is a nightly build so a public list of what's working or not isn't rly part of the deal.
i've succesfully restore a nandroid from both slim and cm9 back to the stock att rom and others many many times. dozens.
thanks good enough.
I will have to give it a go.
would you recommend one or the other?
CM9 or slim?
thank you.
well, I like them both a lot. slim is just a trimmed down version of cm9 and i _think_ it does run just a bit snappier........maybe..but it's not wildly different from cm9. I usually switch back&forth throughout the day.
There's no setting in CM9 to disable the proximity sensor, although there may be a way to do it.
We just got a Nitro HD for my wife and her phone also has this issue. I have not gotten to know the phone well enough to try rooting or anything else of that nature, it's pure stock.
When she makes a call the screen turns off immediately after hitting the call button and will not wake up. When she receives a call we get a glimpse of the in-call screen with the various buttons etc but then the screen turns off. If the other party hangs up her screen turns back on, but if she calls something automated, like voicemail, she can't do anything except pull the battery to disconnect.
I've tried putting my thumb over the proximity sensor, hitting all buttons including power, and nothing makes the screen wake up or turns the phone off other than a battery pull.
The phone was running a build from last November when we first got it (V10i?) and today prompted us to update, so I did that hoping it would solve the problem. The phone is currently on V10j, but the problem persists.
Any help?
no driver said:
We just got a Nitro HD for my wife and her phone also has this issue. I have not gotten to know the phone well enough to try rooting or anything else of that nature, it's pure stock.
When she makes a call the screen turns off immediately after hitting the call button and will not wake up. When she receives a call we get a glimpse of the in-call screen with the various buttons etc but then the screen turns off. If the other party hangs up her screen turns back on, but if she calls something automated, like voicemail, she can't do anything except pull the battery to disconnect.
I've tried putting my thumb over the proximity sensor, hitting all buttons including power, and nothing makes the screen wake up or turns the phone off other than a battery pull.
The phone was running a build from last November when we first got it (V10i?) and today prompted us to update, so I did that hoping it would solve the problem. The phone is currently on V10j, but the problem persists.
Any help?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you bought it from a store, get it exchanged for a new one.
actually works much faster on cm9, but therr still should be an optin to keep lcd on during call. i found some free apps that will disable hardware drivers but cant find the name of the proximity sensor driver, only that is named LGE.
Unfortunately it was given to us by a friend after my wife lost her Captivate, so taking it to a store to exchange is probably not going to work too well. As far as I can tell it was never used before we got it--the battery was still in it's own sealed pouch, the texting and driving warning was on the phone, and the phone went through the whole initial setup routine--but they didn't send us the box, I guess to cut down on mailing costs. I was hoping there was a known solution.
Ok, I downloaded two proximity sensor test apps today, but neither showed any activity. On my Captivate I get different readings with Proximity Sensor Finder (market link), but on the Nitro it is stuck at 3cm and it doesn't register anything no matter where I put my hand over the phone.
Can someone whose phone works right try installing this app and make sure that it picks up different readings on this device? OP, if you are still having issues, can you also try this app and see if it is static for you?
Thanks.
Took off the screen protector that they installed at the AT&T store and now the proximity sensor works just fine. OP, do you have a screen protector on your device?
we had an awfully thick one from att. we have since changed it to a super thin one. screen off is not a real problem on cm9, however i feel all devices should have the option to disable proximity sensor/keep lcd on during calls.
It's worth trying to use the warranty on the phone. Even though you dont have the original sales reciept, the phone has been released for less than a year, so no matter when you bought it, it is still within it's year long guaranteed warranty window.
Finished reading the thread, I suppose this post is now irrelevent