Develop Bugs

Windows 7 HD2 Hints from Adobe???

http://pocketnow.com/rumor/windows-phone-7-series-for-htc-hd2-more-proof
"Can Adobe clarify the roadmap for Android and Windows Mobile? Based on what was announced in February and June I was expecting some alpha release during MAX and had planned for that. The announcement at MAX there was to be some preview release in December together with the Open Screen Project partners was unfortunate, but no big problem.. Unfortunately that preview release did not materialize and 2009 has passed. Mobile Flash is different from the regular Flash in that I can not get my developers to just install it on the hardware they have, I need to get funding for new phones, acquire them etc. Budgets do not come overnight, so the sooner Adobe can provide us with a clear roadmap the better.
What I need to know is:
- what will be the first Android phone for which a Flash Player 10.1 alpha/preview will be released?
- what will be the first Windows Mobile phone for which a Flash Player 10.1 alpha/preview will be released?
- When?
To that, the Adobe rep replies:
We're waiting for OS updates from Google and Microsoft before we can distribute a Flash Player Beta. We expect this to happen early this year. Thank you for your patience!
The first Android devices that will support Flash Player are the Droid and Nexus One. The first WinMo device will be the HTC HD2.
And in another reply, the Adobe rep mentions:
You can expect the final release for Android to be available mid-year. All Android devices that meet our minimum s/w and h/w requirements will be supported. Unfortunately, I cannot say a lot more publicly about our port to the Android platform at this time.
As for WinMo, we have made the tough decision to defer support for that platform until WinMo7. This is due to the fact that WinMo6.5 does not support some of the critical APIs that we need.
So wait a sec - if Adobe isn't adding flash to Windows Phone until version 7, and the HD2 will be the first device to have it, doesn't this mean that the HD2 will run Windows Phone 7 Series? Connecting the dots, this seems to be the case."
So what do you guys think????
UPDATE
http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=13719
Whilst Microsoft may have previously said there were no current devices that were WP7 capable, they may well just have reversed that.
It’s early days yet, and that’s really for our hardware partners to think about.

I cannot think any reason why HD2 cannot use Windows Phone 7 Series.
All minimum requirements are met, except HD2 has 5 buttons while the requirement is only 3 buttons.
That would be OK, there will be 2 buttons unused or even better they can be mapped to certain functionality.
But then it depends on HTC to make it happen .... or XDA gurus here
I also think this will be answered next month during MIX10.

All minimum requirements are met, except HD2 has 5 buttons while the requirement is only 3 buttons.
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Click to collapse
lol... it's minimum three buttons of course.

I remain skeptical for several reasons regarding the Win Phone 7 minimum specs;
1. The phone must have back, search and home keys, and the HD2 lacks the search key, as well as the other two having incorrect legend (it might be possible to use the Windows key as the search key though)
2. The phone must have camera and power keys, one of which the HD2 lacks
3. The screen has to be able to register four simultaneous finger-presses, which the HD2 cannot do
4. The phone must have a forward-facing camera, which the HD2 does not have
5. There are not supposed to be any other keys, but the HD2 has two phone keys and volume keys
Aside from any possible key mapping, which I suspect Microsoft wouldn't be happy with, the other points lead to a deal-breaking condition.
I can't see how the HD2 would cope with the lack of four-point fingerpress recognition, although I'm not too sure when that would be used other than during two-handed typing using two fingers from each hand?
EDIT: If Microsoft do allow key mapping, then I guess the right-hand phone key could be POWER, and the left-hand one might be the CAMERA button.

Jim Coleman said:
I remain skeptical for several reasons regarding the Win Phone 7 minimum specs;
1. The phone must have back, search and home keys, and the HD2 lacks the search key, as well as the other two having incorrect legend (it might be possible to use the Windows key as the search key though)
2. The phone must have camera and power keys, one of which the HD2 lacks
3. The screen has to be able to register four simultaneous finger-presses, which the HD2 cannot do
4. The phone must have a forward-facing camera, which the HD2 does not have
5. There are not supposed to be any other keys, but the HD2 has two phone keys and volume keys
Aside from any possible key mapping, which I suspect Microsoft wouldn't be happy with, the other points lead to a deal-breaking condition.
I can't see how the HD2 would cope with the lack of four-point fingerpress recognition, although I'm not too sure when that would be used other than during two-handed typing using two fingers from each hand?
EDIT: If Microsoft do allow key mapping, then I guess the right-hand phone key could be POWER, and the left-hand one might be the CAMERA button.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt what's on the keys is going to be a deal-breaker. I mean, MS want people to use this new OS, and HD2 users aren't going to go and buy a new phone for it (in 98% of cases). So I can't see what harm it would do (to either MS or HTC) to bend these stupid marketing rules for existing WM7-capable phones.

Yupe 5 is more than 3, are you happy?
I want to buy HD2 to replace my HTC Kaiser, but I would wait something new from HTC (HD3? *yummy*).
In the meantime, I am playing with Android on HTC Kaiser.
freyberry said:
lol... it's minimum three buttons of course.
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Click to collapse

guys you seriously missing the point adobe have stated that hd2 is going to have windows mobile 7 and all you can do discuss the 5 button problem lol. ive seen a demo of hd2 with flash working on 6.5 so maybe theyve delayed it for 7 because windows 7 utilises the hardware better?

yustheman said:
http://pocketnow.com/rumor/windows-phone-7-series-for-htc-hd2-more-proof
[cut]
To that, the Adobe rep replies:
We're waiting for OS updates from Google and Microsoft before we can distribute a Flash Player Beta. We expect this to happen early this year. Thank you for your patience!
The first Android devices that will support Flash Player are the Droid and Nexus One. The first WinMo device will be the HTC HD2.
And in another reply, the Adobe rep mentions:
You can expect the final release for Android to be available mid-year. All Android devices that meet our minimum s/w and h/w requirements will be supported. Unfortunately, I cannot say a lot more publicly about our port to the Android platform at this time.
As for WinMo, we have made the tough decision to defer support for that platform until WinMo7. This is due to the fact that WinMo6.5 does not support some of the critical APIs that we need.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is why I hate Internet rumours; people never bother to think.
The two posts being referred to in the Adobe forum are more than a month apart. It's obvious that the decision not to issue a version of FlashPlayer for WM6 was taken during that one month gap.
When the guy posted back in early January, they were still intending to release a version for WM6.5; at that point the plan was that the HD2 would be the first WM6.5 phone able to run it.
By early February they had changed their plans; having discovered that WM6.5 lacks certain crucial API's they decided to cancel the release of FlashPlayer for Windows Mobile altogether, and not release anything for a Microsoft platform until WP7 is available.
There is no logical connection between the HD2 and WP7 there; the two things feature in entirely different plans.

What Shasarak said.

THINK if you have read correctly what i have written than you would understand ive seen a demo of HD2 running flash infact heres a video http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplayer/articles/mobile_demos_fp10.1/popup13.html
the video clearly shows hd2 with 6.5 working with flash so the api bulls*** is rubbish. Even if it was the case that there was some API missing Adobe could have included in the software?????

yustheman said:
THINK
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My anger wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the idiots at pocketnow who lack basic comprehension skills.
yustheman said:
if you have read correctly what i have written than you would understand ive seen a demo of HD2 running flash infact heres a video http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplayer/articles/mobile_demos_fp10.1/popup13.html
the video clearly shows hd2 with 6.5 working with flash so the api bulls*** is rubbish. Even if it was the case that there was some API missing Adobe could have included in the software?????
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, there are two possibilities, there. One is that the so-called Adobe rep quoted at pocketnow doesn't what know what the f*ck he's talking about, in which case speculating about WP7 appearing on the HD2 on the basis of what he says is clearly entirely pointless; the other is that the rep does know what he is talking about, and that what you saw was an alpha version with support for only a subset of Flash functions, and that there will now never be a finished version because some of the missing features require api's that WM6.5 doesn't have.

Shasarak said:
My anger wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the idiots at pocketnow who lack basic comprehension skills.
Well, there are two possibilities, there. One is that the so-called Adobe rep quoted at pocketnow doesn't what know what the f*ck he's talking about, in which case speculating about WP7 appearing on the HD2 on the basis of what he says is clearly entirely pointless; the other is that the rep does know what he is talking about, and that what you saw was an alpha version with support for only a subset of Flash functions, and that there will now never be a finished version because some of the missing features require api's that WM6.5 doesn't have.
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My apologies........

Jim Coleman said:
3. The screen has to be able to register four simultaneous finger-presses, which the HD2 cannot do
4. The phone must have a forward-facing camera, which the HD2 does not have
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Click to collapse
#3 is a software adjustment. The hardware itself is capable.
I haven't seen #4 listed as a requirement anywhere. Reference? They didn't sound like they were pushing video-calling at all. I don't even think their reference model had a forward-facing camera.

#4 is not a reqiurement
#5 is wrong as well, of course there may be other keys (like send & end)
The search and camera keys are required for new devices, but not a reason not to provide an upgrade.
What I can say is, an official upgrade is possible and seemed very likely from what I've heard some time ago (I can't reveal more, you have to trust me) but the last I've heard was that it's getting increasingly unlikely (lots of politics there...). I expect an official announcement of their decision when it launches in the US.
Right now, it's a waiting game and we can only hope...
And please, don't ask me, that's all I can say.

Seems like the majority of the blogs/sites don't think before posting (or just do it to generate traffic). At least MTW questioned the "realness" of the stuff: http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2010...-1-support-for-windows-mobile-6-5-wait-a-sec/
And how the **** did Pocketnow see any hint/connection with a WP7 update for the HD2 is beyond me.

MasterTP said:
At least MTW questioned the "realness" of the stuff: http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2010...-1-support-for-windows-mobile-6-5-wait-a-sec/
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My working hypothesis today is that Adobe has indeed cancelled any plans to release Flashplayer for WM6.x, but that they are lying about their reasons for doing so. Happy to be corrected on any point if there is conflicting evidence, naturally.

We've seen Flash 10.1 running on WM6.5, so their statement about missing APIs is clearly a lie.

freyberry said:
We've seen Flash 10.1 running on WM6.5, so their statement about missing APIs is clearly a lie.
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Well, we don't know that every feature of Flash was supported, and we certainly don't know that every feature was supported at an acceptable level of performance.

Seriously, do you think they would have developed it for months if they could have known from the beginning that it would not work?
It was almost ready. They've shown it on video. At that state, you normally know about the APIs you need. Plus, WP7 will offer even less APIs.
Their answer is nonsense. I'm sure they're lying.

Flash is dead.
HTML5 is the new way.
EOS().

My Thoughts on WP7

I will apologize in advance for this will be long and random because my thoughts bounce around like that
You know I've been trying to figure it all out lately. It seems a good portion of XDA (40% according to this poll) members are liking 6.5.3 moreso than 7. OK...fine. Then we have this huge population of people (34% according to this poll that plan on switching to another mobile OS. Not to mention the slew of people still pissed and wondering if the HD2 will be forward compatible. And the ever increasing amount of people still prefer Sense UI over WP7. Its all so much to address so I just stopped posting for a while...but I wonder?!?!? Is change really that bad?
Its like people have been *****ing for months wanting M$ to give us the scoop on WP7...we have it and we're pissed. lol. lets move past all this...I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people. Why don't we use this forum for sharing information and not bashing something that not out nor is it finished...we don't have even close to half of the info about this phone yet we are judging it based upon insubstantial information.
I remember when the videos started coming out, the guy at the booth mentions that copy/paste hadn't been implemented into the OS yet...then I read on this forum that there is NO COPY/PASTE. One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...so all current users can still have all the things they love currently for the next 10 years (with microsofts string of innovation..lol.) But lets be honest lets look at 6+ as a whole:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
Blandness. This is the biggest issue. I've mentioned this before in other posts. Why is it everytime I want to accomplish anything in the OS I'm lead to an ugly white screen? Settings=ugly. SMS=ugly. Email=Ugly ANY SYSTEM MENU=UGLY. Its no wonder we all like Sense UI from HTC. Go to search and look up Contact Manager...see how many apps you get. Look up music players, lock screens, UI's etc. We got that by dozens. WHY? Now if you look at the scene currently...its because it gives us a choice to personalize, and I agree. But if you look back this was born out of a need for better rather than a need for different/personalization. Media player sucked...it was bland hard to navigate and generally a terrible experience. AC takes the best out the (Iphone) and creates it for WM (S2P)...sure it looks great but the need was much more for a BETTER player. Same can be said for S2U2 et al. HTC needed Manilla/sense to make our outdated UI look appealing/current. Everything about Sense is better than stock, Same can be said for Samsungs Touchwiz. These things were born out of necessity.
Terrible manufacturing. For all the HTC love out there, we all seem to let them get away with the fact that for the past 10 years (up until HD2) they have been giving us awesome software coupled with terrible hardware. It is a fact that we had incomplete/missing drivers and because of this alot of development was stalled or took forever to do. And image how much money HTC made off of shaving costs with shoddy manufacturing.
I won't got too indepth there but to keep it simple, M$ has those basic problems to deal with when making a new OS.
Now look at WP7, Easily top of the line spec sheet just for minimum requirements. I knew we were in for greatness when we got that bit of info. C'mon snapdragon as the minimum...awesome. This also gets rid of those Terrible manufacturing woes...so people can't just put out trash with the M$ OS on it. No more phones that crash from simple program openings. Also WVGA as the standard. No more need to build an app and then port it to other resolutions (WIN..) This coupled with the XNA/Silverlight development tolls make it possible to build for Xbox, PC, Mobile all at the same time...thats awesome and a huge win. Lastly, with Metro, there is no need for user skins on top of the UI. I know alot of you guys are newer to WM, but back in the day...I remember where the home screen was just "the homescreen"..the ugly green or blue homescreen with whatever info you needed on it (Weatherpanel FTW..anyone?) People realized how blah it was and you see where we are now. Look at Sense...its awesome because it gives you all the same info but it looks good and its faster. Metro has live tiles that give you access to EVERYTHING you need on your phone. Its not like the iphone where you check your SMS by tapping sms its something completely different, better. You go from the Hub into the universe that is you contacts, updated twitters, facebook, photos, sms, emails....everything at the touch of the finger...just by going into contacts. Thats awesome. Granted I don't uses twitter or facebook but its a nice touch. But if you look at it, there is still more room for innovation...HTC weather HUB anyone?
So yeah, a phone is a means of communications, a cell phone is a portable way of communication..Wp7 looks to be communication on steroids. I apologize for this extremely long message but i had to get out everything on my mind...in a place where people would read it. If you stuck it out, thank you. If you post telling me that was too long, you're absolutely right. Sorry

Good One..Well said, and I agree
devs, here do not trying to understand, if MS is closing one door, they are opening 100 doors as in the Xbox and other services can be synced among them, so this gives lot of opportunity to devs to come up with exciting creativve ideas.
Also, MS wnats to extend the scope with reaching out to all types of users and segments, and what they have showed here is the perfect thing.I am wwaiting for a review or hands on for a fully furnished and finished wp7 device.

I totally agree with you style. WM5 was a good os, but boring, Then here comes WM6.0 6.1 with touchflo. It was awesome, but the os sucked really bad, had a bunch of bugs and its just a let down. I had a htc 8125 which the phone itself was a resilient phone, but it just was sluggish with any of the OS except WM5 on it. I believe the phone couldn't exactly hold its own with the software but never the less it was slow running wm 6.5. The phone ran the os but I think windows had a bunch of problems. I am no longer using my 8125 cuz the poor thing died from a heart attack and major artery blockage from being used hard lol. I have a 8525 coming in and im planning on putting wm7 on it. Can't wait. I may be in for a let down but if I am then I still have a pretty cool phone coming to me, and it makes me look kinda cool for having it haha.

+1 good post b

A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.

gogol said:
A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So true....but there will be a good amount of apps available on launch because its using the Zune software so it will be running Zune Apps...I have a few games on my Zune already...all are nice and smooth.
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
~style1~
Thank you guys for the comments, I already had my flame suit on..

Exactly i was thinking same. MS has to start from 0 ..... new os, new hw, new life.
I like the functionality of new OS but not the GUI . and i believe lot will change till final release. Still i will use wp7 if everything seems to work out.
personally i would like cab installation and customization on wp7
guess how cool it would be lil customization like Sense UI on wp7 .. or adding app by cab ....
but i think whatever wp7 will be, it will worth using.

style1 said:
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
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Click to collapse
Hardware is up to par, only the buttons are not the same.
user Xmoo (does something with testing devices) stated on a dutch forum that there are HD2's running WP7 at HTC Taiwan.
Some user here stated (from internal sources) that it is defenitely possible to run WP7. All microsoft said till this date, that the HD2 doenst have the right buttons.
Im agree totally with you on this subject. Its certainly the only way for Microsoft to capture some decent marketshare.

@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.

pilgrim011 said:
@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don' remember reading or hearing confirmation that multitasking won't be available. They clearly stated many times that some kind of multitasking will be available. We shall know everything(or almost everything) after MIX.
Stop judging unfinished OS that you don't even know. What you're saying is pure speculation.

style1 said:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.

It is not specifically the OS, but the "platform" as a whole (screen size, screen type, number of buttons, processor speed, type of buttons, size of RAM, flip phone, slide phone, whatnot, etc).
And yes, it is painful to maintain a lot of builds specific for those kind of varieties.
Not to mention lack OS update because of phone operator / carrier lazyness (I bought my HTC Kaiser unlocked from HTC because I learned that T-Mobile is very slow giving update).
That's why I am glad that Microsoft is now taking control of the minimum hardware specification. Because that would be an advantage of current WM situation, especially to reduce fragmentation as much as possible.
Also the fact that Microsoft will provide OS update and hardware drivers (no more *****ing around about HTC missing drivers).
Instead of developer wandering around to "patch" their apps to work on fragmented platform, or figuring out tricks to over-come missing drivers. They can now enjoy leveraging their creativity for making consistent apps in well supported plaform (WP7).
RAMMANN said:
I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.
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style1 said:
I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people.
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The problem is not just that the HD2 won't get an upgrade, it's the combination of it not getting an upgrade plus the fact that WP7 will not be backwards-compatible with Windows Moble applications. That is something almost nobody saw coming.
The effect of the non-backwards-compatibility announcement has been to completely kill off Windows Mobile as a viable platform for commercial software development. (Look at Adobe, look at Skype - there will be plenty of other developers jumping ship, most of whom probably won't make any public announcement about it).
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
style1 said:
One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
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Click to collapse
No, it's like you aren't paying attention.
There have been a number of announcements and leaks on the subject of multi-tasking, and we now have a pretty clear idea of how it will work. There can only be one foreground application. When a typical application is moved to the background, it will be suspended, but capable of being resumed from the same point when it is reactivated; it will not, however, be capable of actually doing anything while in the background. It will be possible for certain, select applications and services to actually run in the background rather than being paused, but this facility will be available only to applications developed by MS, or by their "partners" - i.e. phone manufacturers and networks.
style1 said:
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...
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Click to collapse
Yes, but no one takes that claim seriously.

Shasarak said:
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
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Click to collapse
If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
Maybe we also forget that WM 6.5.x is brand new and just about to be launched. How many phones have you seen with a 6.5.3 stock ROM? There will still be plenty of new phones coming!
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....

RAMMANN said:
If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The point is that no one realised WP7 would be "a completely different OS" - we were all completely blindsided by that. No one expected a situation where there wouldn't be a single WM6 application capable of running on WP7. If, as everyone expected and as HTC allowed HD2 buyers to believe, WP7 had been backwards-compatible, WM6.5 would still be a viable platform for commercial software: people could keep on developing software for WM6, secure in the knowledge that it would run just as well on WP7 when that eventually came along. The lack of backwards-compatibility has killed WM6 stone cold dead as a commercial platform: no sensible commercial developer will develop for it at all, anymore, they'll skip straight to WP7 (if they even bother with a Microsoft version at all). Until the no-backwards-compatibility announcement happened, an upgrade was much less important; now, it really matters.
RAMMANN said:
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's such a ridiculous analogy I hardly know where to begin.... Well, for starters, consider just how much Windows 95 software actually ran under NT - pretty much all of it did, with the only exception being games. And for those who needed gaming support, MS continued with fresh releases based on the Windows 95 development stream - 98, 98SE even ME - all of which could run virtually all NT-oriented software as well. Those releases didn't dry up until after full support for DirectX (and even improved DOS emulation) ended up in the NT line.
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?

Shasarak said:
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications (yeah, we here will certainly do, but most users won't, and even most software companies won't). WM has been going along its way to oblivion in terms of market share, and, frankly, we didn't see many (if any at all) big software guys pumping investment into the platform anyway.
Apart from "big" Windows I'd guess the biggest MS-driven market is the XBox. So they chose compatibility with that "ecosystem" over the WM one. Disappointing as it is, I think that it was the right decision for MS really.

If I may address a few things...Aaron Woodman has gone on record saying that there will be multitasking on the phone. Let me just drop an excerpt:
"Among the details unveiled by him in that interview, we can count the fact that there will be multitasking in the new operating system, although previous rumors pointed otherwise. However, the approach on applications is a little different than before, as they will be included/integrated with the hubs Windows Phone OS 7 sports, and this is something that Microsoft is set to detail at MIX10. The main idea, however, is that apps will be there, and that they will be selected so as to be in line with the new user experience the company is trying to promote."
So maybe I as well as microsoft have NO IDEA WHAT MULTITASKING IS. I'm not trying to make opinions and substantiate them with evidence...I'm looking at the evidence and drawing a conclusion from it. M$ says there will be multitasking in their platform then I have to conclude that there will be multitasking even if I haven't personally seen the way it will be handled on a bigger scale. Trying to prove otherwise without any info is just reckless. Now of course it doesn't seem that they are multitasking in the traditional way and I am curious to see exactly how the system is multitasking but if I may speculate I think it deals with the back button. It seems everytime you switch tasks you press the home button then go into your hub of what you are going to do...once you finish you press the home button and go into the next task...since we know the back button doesn't lead to the Homescreen, maybe the back button leads through all the previous tasks in the order that you went through them. That would be simple and unobtrusive. Thats just my speculation based upon the videos I've seen so far...prove me wrong please.
Also about being blindside you're right it was a shock to most. I think M$ has gone on record saying they will still support WM as WPclassic(WPC) so i don't think you guys have just been outright abandoned...but. I wonder, with all the issues that you are labelling about WP7 but still complaining that the HD2 wont be able to upgrade to it, which side of the fence do you really sit on. You can't really be on both sides. But while I'm being prudent HTC has gone on record many times saying the HD2 will be upgradable to WP7, M$ has said that it doesn't plan on upgrading the device. They site the three button crap as a reason but interestingly enough Tony Wilkinson, Microsoft Australia's Business Operations Director, has said that "there are some hardware components that the HD doesn't have." Could this be why the HD2 coming to Tmoble seems to be a beefier version? We don't know but its always fun to speculate. Since M$ hasn't offically released a FULL spec list we have no idea but we will know at MIX10. Hell maybe M$ has no plan on upgrading HD2 but they are leaving it solely up to the manufactures to deliver on that which is why there are 2 conflicting views coming from HTC and M$...who knows right now. But based on the facts these are likely conclusions.
I won't bother with any other thing said because its more off topic..I don't really care whether people think that people will stop developing on 6.5.X just because WP7 is released... they obviously underestimate this site. Hell what more do people need?
~style~

vangrieg said:
Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.

Shasarak said:
HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some of them will, some won't. I am an HD2 user and I don't care, I don't want to own it for another year anyway, I'd happily exchange it right now if there were something better. I'm sure most HD2 users don't even know what OS their device is running (I know my wife wouldn't know). So we're talking about a few hundred thousand users max. And that's just the user side. A commercial WM developer network is pretty much non-existent right now, apart from SPB, Resco and a couple other small firms.

Well done. I completely agree. I'm looking forward to it. Most users are just bitter and don't want change. I think the main worry with the cooks or other users is that is that it won't offer the amount of customization of 6.5 and below, but they fail to forget that the Iphone is boring until you jailbreak, in the process opening up many possibilities. I think the same will be said for WP7S

Windows phone 7 - FAQ (please read first)

I have created a small FAQ to address some common WP7 related questions, a little attempt to try to stop people from asking same questions over and over again. Maybe the moderators can put it as sticky?
Q: Can I run Windows phone 7 on my HD2?
A: No you can't! Microsoft have told multiple times that there won't be an upgrade for HD2.
Q: I have seen screenshots of HD2 running WP7, is it possible to run WP7 on my HD2?
A: This might have been a fake picture. And even if it's real there will be no ugprade coming from Microsoft.
Q: But on my HD2 box it's written I'll receive free upgrade to WP7!
A: Microsoft are writing drivers for WP7 devices so it depends on Microsoft and not on HDC. Microsoft said the HD2 won't run it!
Q: But the HD2 meets the minimum hardware requirements, can I run WP7 on it?
A: It's decided by Microsoft, it will NOT run!
Q: Recently a ROM of WP7 was leaked can you give me step by step instructions to put it on my phone?
A: Nothing was leaked. The only thing that happened is that someone extracted the emulator image from the new Windows phone SDK.
Q: So what? Can I run it on my phone now?
A: No!
Q: I downloaded the leaked ROM but I don't know how to run it!
A: There's no leaked ROM. Download the Windows phone SDK and run the emulator from your Visual Studio project.
Q: Now that we have the leaked ROM can I cook it on my Touch pro 2?
A: No!
Q: Can I simply put the leaked ROM in my kitchen with a little hacks here and there and run WP7?
A: There's no leaked ROM. And the emulator image is based on x86 CPU. Your device runs an ARM CPU.
Q: I seen the file structure is the same like in my kitchen. Give me step by step instructions to cook a WP7 ROM for my device!
A: No it's not possible!
Q: If we have a real WP7 device and extract the ROM can the great developers at XDA please out it on my HP IPAQ?
A: WP7 is based on a new kernel and you don't have WP7 drivers for your device. It won't be possible to run WP7 on any older device.
Q: But I have bought a brand new HD2 and they said WP7 upgrade is free!
A: If you don't have the WP7 drivers for HD2 then it's not possible at all!
Q: But the hackers at XDA can still do it?
A: Probably not!
Q: That sucks! I'll switch to Android.
A: Have a nice day, goodbye!

Q: But I have bought a brand new HD2 and they said WP7 upgrade is free!
A: If you don't have the WP7 drivers for HD2 then it's not possible at all!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A: You will probably get a new WP7 device either free or discounted.

LOL @ half the FAQ being HD2 owners

Well it can't be taken seriously enough to be a sticky if it's an FAQ for idiots. Half the questions about an HD2 and the other half about a leaked ROM? It's humorous, but non-thick-headed people might have real actual questions about 7.
The picture was fake, not probably fake.. and that's not even necessary to say since the answer to the first question was NO.
Funny post though

Q: Can I run Windows phone 7 on my HD2?
There is no real information about upgrading the HTC HD2 at the moment. Rumors and the whole information over 60% - 80% is not real about WM7 on HTCH D2. The HTC can not disappoint so many customers because they will lose them as a result to lose million of money. The HTC will take the case very seriously. And from the other hand HTC and Microsoft have very good dealings they can't "destroy" this dealing for a WM Upgrade! Think about it.......
Q: I have seen screenshots of HD2 running WP7, is it possible to run WP7 on my HD2?
At the moment no.Maybe fake or early Beta Versions for HTC Corporations Beta Testers-Programmers......One God knows!
Q: But the HD2 meets the minimum hardware requirements, can I run WP7 on it?
The HTC HD2 hasn't any minimum hardware requirements the ONLY minimum hardware is graphic processor nothings else! (except the Microsoft decisions for 3 buttons etc..... ) The WM7 can't switch to no Graphics Mode from the settings (i just thought!) ??? We don't know!!!
Q: That sucks! I'll switch to Android.
Hey calm down!! You don't know if the information about upgrade will available for Nowadays HTC devices
Q: The above questions are really vague???
Yes with possibility up to 60%-70% the information are really vague.
Q: But on my HD2 box it's written I'll receive free upgrade to WP7!
Your answer is right at least 60%. If theres any disagreement between Microsoft and HTC. HTC would produce only Android phones no Wphones.
Q: But the hackers at XDA can still do it?
The problem always have a solution most of time. Maybe not hackers at XDA can't do it but another hackers can do it...... vague that!!
burnblue said:
Well it can't be taken seriously enough to be a sticky if it's an FAQ for idiots. Half the questions about an HD2 and the other half about a leaked ROM? It's humorous, but non-thick-headed people might have real actual questions about 7.
The picture was fake, not probably fake.. and that's not even necessary to say since the answer to the first question was NO.
Funny post though
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1000000+
The above questions are somewhat vague and you can't answer them by my opinion It's very very very very and 1 million very early for microsoft to take these decisions!! The WM7 it still fresh beta version.......Just think it......
Peace
Yours em1111

@RAMMANN
Very funny, ymmd

RAMMANN said:
Q: But the HD2 meets the minimum hardware requirements, can I run WP7 on it?
A: It's decided by Microsoft, it will NOT run!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A better answer to that might be to point out that the HD2 doesn't meet the minimum hardware requirements.
It doesn't have a search button. Arguably it doesn't have a dedicated power button. It doesn't have a hardware camera button. It has only half a gigabyte of onboard flash, when the minimum amount needed is 8GB. It has an SD card reader which is banned on WP7S devices. There are also question-marks over whether it has the necessary "hardware scaler" (which apparently is distinct from the GPU) and, more seriously, whether its touch-screen is capable of registering the required four independent points of contact or only two.

burnblue said:
Well it can't be taken seriously enough to be a sticky if it's an FAQ for idiots. Half the questions about an HD2 and the other half about a leaked ROM? It's humorous, but non-thick-headed people might have real actual questions about 7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, although I'd make this a real rule:
RAMMANN said:
Q: That sucks! I'll switch to Android.
A: Have a nice day, goodbye!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And also would make that goodbye permanent in case someone breaks it. These posts are annoying as hell. Like threatening me that someone is switching to whatever OS has any meaning at all. I don't give a damn, and I'm here to read about WP7, really.

Shasarak said:
A better answer to that might be to point out that the HD2 doesn't meet the minimum hardware requirements.
It doesn't have a search button. Arguably it doesn't have a dedicated power button. It doesn't have a hardware camera button. It has only half a gigabyte of onboard flash, when the minimum amount needed is 8GB. It has an SD card reader which is banned on WP7S devices. There are also question-marks over whether it has the necessary "hardware scaler" (which apparently is distinct from the GPU) and, more seriously, whether its touch-screen is capable of registering the required four independent points of contact or only two.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, it doesn't meet the minimum requirements, but people keep saying it does.
I'm not an owner of a HD2 device but even if I had one I wouldn't be so sissy about it. It's a WM 6.5 device and that's it. WP7 is a completely new chapter! It's meant to be a new OS and not only an update. And even if we already figured out what the kernel and OS structure is still somewhat similar from what we have now..... it doesn't change a thing!
Today I read the emulator is unlocked. Great! But in the next post I had to read the same nonsene again "Can I put it on my device now?"
GRRRRRRMMMMM!!!!
Why don't they just GET IT????

To be fair, another very frequently asked question is:
Q: lolz, why u wnt WP7S on HD2, it sux0rs, u r all idiots, no wun eva sed HD2 wud have WP7 n e way why don you all just sht up?!?!?! lolz
or words to that effect. The answer would be something like:
Some people feel that HTC implied that there would be a WP7 upgrade for the HD2, and that HTC has broken its promises. Most people, however, are more annoyed about the impact of the WP7 announcement on WM6.x.
When we bought our HD2's just a couple of months ago, no one could have guessed that WP7 would not be backwards-compatible with WM6.x - in other words that no WM6.x application would run on WP7. The effect of this is that, from the moment of the announcement, W6.x became a dead platform as far as commercial software development is concerned. Of course, hobbyist development will continue; but there is no longer any good reason for commercial software houses to produce new products or updates for WM6.x; instead they will jump straight to WP7S.
We are already seeing this with a number of major companies, for example Skype, Adobe (who have cancelled their FlashPlayer project for WM6.x) and even Microsoft (who have have recently announced a new version of Silverlight for the platform Symbian, but decided not to do so for Windows Mobile).
HTC must have known this would happen at the time the HD2 first went on sale, but conveniently neglected to mention it to anyone, which has made a lot of people angry. A free upgrade to WP7S might have gone some way towards compensating.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I think it's name must be VistaMobile not WP7

Very good all these, but Microsoft didn't ask HD2 owners if they want to run series 7 at them devices
Me and meny other owners we say NO, WE DIDN'T LIKE SERIES 7
We prefer our Leo like it is, with windows 6.5 or 6.5.3 and the HTC Sense which it is match more practical than the blue doors of series 7 and has better graphics.
We prefer to have copy paste, multi tasking, unlocked os, so as to put anything we want.
I had iPhone 3g and 3Gs before. I come back at WM because of these stupid restrictions, which they are only to make as to buy stupid apps from them stores.
If I must accept something like that, I prefer to original, I mean apple
MS the last years lost the most of the smartphone users. Only powers users continue with WM because of HTC no because Microsoft.
With series 7, they open the door for us also.
We are not at the them target plan, but they are not also at our plan.
The new users which they will come at the smartphones, they will have to choice between a new windows os and a famous iPhone os which after 3 years experience and millions sales will be better.
What you thing they will choice?
Microsoft made a big mistake. If they had an other way can win very easy all the disappointment iPhone and droid users, and after that the most of the new users which they will follow the new wave.
We will see after some months who is right.

Windows 7 --> EVO 4G
Forgive me for my ignorance on the issue. Based on the info posted here, I understand that one of the impediments to WP7-->HD2 is the lack of WP7 drivers for the HD2.
Then, is it safe to say that WP7-->EVO 4G will be in the same boat? Or will it be even worse off? Does it matter that the EVO 4G is an Android phone? Will that make it any harder to install WP7 on that device? Or would it present the exact same difficulties as installing WP7 on the HD2?

nanoo-eg said:
Very good all these, but Microsoft didn't ask HD2 owners if they want to run series 7 at them devices
Me and meny other owners we say NO, WE DIDN'T LIKE SERIES 7
We prefer our Leo like it is, with windows 6.5 or 6.5.3 and the HTC Sense which it is match more practical than the blue doors of series 7 and has better graphics.
We prefer to have copy paste, multi tasking, unlocked os, so as to put anything we want.
I had iPhone 3g and 3Gs before. I come back at WM because of these stupid restrictions, which they are only to make as to buy stupid apps from them stores.
If I must accept something like that, I prefer to original, I mean apple
MS the last years lost the most of the smartphone users. Only powers users continue with WM because of HTC no because Microsoft.
With series 7, they open the door for us also.
We are not at the them target plan, but they are not also at our plan.
The new users which they will come at the smartphones, they will have to choice between a new windows os and a famous iPhone os which after 3 years experience and millions sales will be better.
What you thing they will choice?
Microsoft made a big mistake. If they had an other way can win very easy all the disappointment iPhone and droid users, and after that the most of the new users which they will follow the new wave.
We will see after some months who is right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+ 1. I couldnt agree more ...
I like to try wp7 for a while, but I'm pretty sure that i'll stick to 6.5 for at least a few years until microsoft improves it

is the MS-HTC relationship going downhill

think about it:
1-they are preventing HTC from making their own UI (the main difference between HTC and all the other makers). basically preventing them of having the advantage they had over other Winmo phone makers
2-they prevented hd2 from getting wp7 over really stupid reasons (it has 5 buttons instead of 3, and it has removable flash memory)
3-they only allowed capacitive screens for WP7. the UI with be big and too simplified like an iphone. this will render HTC patent for their future touch technology that allows for the use of stylus on capacitive screen to allow for accurate touch like resistive screens
4-htc has more Android phones in development.
5-none of the 3 demonstrated (samsung.Asus, LG) WP7 phones came from them.
6- they went on the record saying that Apple-HTC lawsuit might be a good thing.
I get the feeling that HTC are very annoyed with what Microsoft is going with WP7 like the rest of us

Exactly what I was thinking about... and I think it's Microsofts very dirty trick as HTC was keeping Windows Mobile alive so MS should be more grateful!

I'm sure their relationship is great and HTC has some wonderful WP7S phones in the works. I'm sure HTC knew details about WP7 phones long before we did. And they start designing them long before we are aware of them.
HTC and MS will be just fine.

No
1. They're preventing everybody. TouchWiz, Panels, all that. Consistency. HTC had just been the most drastic coverup that everybody latched onto and used to mock Microsoft.
2. HD2 is a different animal. HD2 will be an old old phone at the end of the year. Why would anybody expect official support? More to the point, do you really believe that HTC would prefer to send you free OS upgrades rather than have you buy a new HD3?
3. Huh?
4. Of course they do. Diversified strategy makes sense and they have the scale for it. Microsoft has multiple hardware makers and HTC has multiple software makers
5. Those guys were aching to get their machines in the limelight for once.. it's always about HTC. Last year they showed off 6.5 on a Diamond2 and TouchPro2. XDA readers are so attached to HTC the simple existence of 3 non-HTC phones bothers them
6. Context, context. It's not like they said "Yeah Apple, kick HTC's ass!"
I get the feeling HTC is ready to sell Windows phones like hotcakes again
THE GRIZZ said:
think about it:
1-they are preventing HTC from making their own UI (the main difference between HTC and all the other makers). basically preventing them of having the advantage they had over other Winmo phone makers
2-they prevented hd2 from getting wp7 over really stupid reasons (it has 5 buttons instead of 3, and it has removable flash memory)
3-they only allowed capacitive screens for WP7. the UI with be big and too simplified like an iphone. this will render HTC patent for their future touch technology that allows for the use of stylus on capacitive screen to allow for accurate touch like resistive screens
4-htc has more Android phones in development.
5-none of the 3 demonstrated (samsung.Asus, LG) WP7 phones came from them.
6- they went on the record saying that Apple-HTC lawsuit might be a good thing.
I get the feeling that HTC are very annoyed with what Microsoft is going with WP7 like the rest of us
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

ZaxXx said:
I think it's Microsofts very dirty trick as HTC was keeping Windows Mobile alive so MS should be more grateful!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dirty trick? Look at it from MS perspective: HTC is only known to you because at one point in time Microsoft picked them out of other Taiwanese manufacturers to be the guys to build the hardware for MS platform. They provided the platform which allowed HTC to become a relatively well-known brand (compare this to Apple's contract manufacturers). This was a fruitful partnerships for both companies. And what did HTC do? They were among the first to rush to support software which is a) free, b) opensource and c) coming from the largest and most dangerous official corporate MS hater in the world. Not only did HTC just release devices with that software, but they were key in improving it, whether by hiding the ugly default look or by compensating for the crippled unfinished nature of it (e.g. Exchange support). And it was also done with full knowledge of the fact that MS is having difficult time redefining their platform strategy, knowing that this was the perfect timing to hit MS when it's most vulnerable.
This is one of the larger stabs in the back in recent history of corporate partnerships. If I were Ballmer, I'd strike back with a vengeance, and that would be serious. If Jobs were Ballmer, you'd see bloodshed. Microsoft, on the other hand, is known to be very good in keeping relationships, and I think they're treating HTC very well. Maybe even better than they deserve.

What's with this whole imaginary HTC vs MS battle? Has there been some official "we are fighting" press release from either of them?
HTC is a hardware manufacturer which makes hardware for various platforms. MS is a software manufacturer that makes software for various platforms (they even have an iPhone app or two). These companies are fully aware what's happening years before the public is.
HTC makes money selling you NEW hardware (HD3)...not software updates to old hardware (HD2 this December). I'm sure HTC is hard at work on 2nd generation WP7 devices and is preparing to release is 1st generation of WP7 devices. There's nothing to fuss about, it's business as usual.
The money saved in the "free" Android OS is probably spent on development. This development cost is built into MS'es fee, so it's all a balance. The "free" thing is a misnomer. Somewhere in the development process Android has a cost.
HTC is fully free to put Sense in Android devices, let's see how Android Sense stacks up against WP7 next year The 3rd party UI shell game was a symptom of failure on MS'es part. They're now correcting this shortcoming of WM with Metro.

while HTC rather sell you the HD3 rather than upgrade the hd2, remember that equipped the hd2 with more than double the memory (576MB/1GB internal flash) than their previous phone. i find it hard to believe that they did that without having a plan to allow the HD2 to be upgradeable.
anyway, i really hate whare MS going with WP7, and i dont intend to get it with these many stupid iphonish limitations. its as if they dont know anything about what made their own winmo a good OS... but i digress

THE GRIZZ said:
while HTC rather sell you the HD3 rather than upgrade the hd2, remember that equipped the hd2 with more than double the memory (576MB/1GB internal flash) than their previous phone. i find it hard to believe that they did that without having a plan to allow the HD2 to be upgradeable.
anyway, i really hate whare MS going with WP7, and i dont intend to get it with these many stupid iphonish limitations. its as if they dont know anything about what made their own winmo a good OS... but i digress
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WinMo failed marketwise...face it. It's so-called advantages were also it's flaws.
Perhaps at some point in time before release dates were established, HD2 was supposed to be a WP7 phone?

Yeah, and also TMo HD2 has this Blockbuster app, right? That's a reason to have more storage already.

vangrieg said:
Dirty trick? Look at it from MS perspective: HTC is only known to you because at one point in time Microsoft picked them out of other Taiwanese manufacturers to be the guys to build the hardware for MS platform. They provided the platform which allowed HTC to become a relatively well-known brand (compare this to Apple's contract manufacturers). This was a fruitful partnerships for both companies. And what did HTC do? They were among the first to rush to support software which is a) free, b) opensource and c) coming from the largest and most dangerous official corporate MS hater in the world. Not only did HTC just release devices with that software, but they were key in improving it, whether by hiding the ugly default look or by compensating for the crippled unfinished nature of it (e.g. Exchange support). And it was also done with full knowledge of the fact that MS is having difficult time redefining their platform strategy, knowing that this was the perfect timing to hit MS when it's most vulnerable.
This is one of the larger stabs in the back in recent history of corporate partnerships. If I were Ballmer, I'd strike back with a vengeance, and that would be serious. If Jobs were Ballmer, you'd see bloodshed. Microsoft, on the other hand, is known to be very good in keeping relationships, and I think they're treating HTC very well. Maybe even better than they deserve.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very good points Sir. Good thing Ballmer is no Jobs. We'll see how hard HTC comes with WP7

WhyBe said:
Perhaps at some point in time before release dates were established, HD2 was supposed to be a WP7 phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it's more likely that the HD2 was designed to be a WM7 phone; its hardware design probably predates the decision to drop the Photon project in favour of WP7S.

Shasarak said:
I think it's more likely that the HD2 was designed to be a WM7 phone; its hardware design probably predates the decision to drop the Photon project in favour of WP7S.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this, or the specifications for WP7 drastically changed during the last couple months. but what do WE know????? nothing!
I still think HD2 is a GREAT device for WM 6.5
It will suck with WP7 so why do you guys even think about it?

I think that HTC will switch definitely to Android/Maemo and BrewOS platforms after this.
Microsoft hasn't been loyal with HTC and neither with their customers: this non-upgradeability thing sucks and remember that if Microsoft is still selling Windows Mobile is only because of HTC that has developed an entirely new UI (Sense, HTCMessaging, HTCSettings, Connection Manager, CommManager etc.) that has given new life to Windows Mobile, making other OEMs such as LG, Toshiba etc. to develop their own UIs for selling Windows Mobile and literally saving the Microsoft's handheld OSes market.
And it's clear that the HTC HD2 has been assembled on the mainline of Windows Mobile 7, because WM6.5(.5) lacks of native MultiTouch features and other hardware that is in our HD2 and that only WM7 and Android can use.
I will never buy any other Windows Mobile device after this. I won't go with BrewOS, but surely I'll buy a device with an open platform OS (and opensource too, imagine what OS I'm referring to!).
Microsoft has been a really good company when Bill Gates was managing all.
Steve Ballmer has done a good job in the PC OSes market (remember that Windows7 was planned by Gates, not by Ballmer and yes, of course, it even depends on the Windows Team, but think on it), but now, I have to say, Ballmer is literally "shutting down" the Microsoft supremacy on all.
Good luck with your future Linux devices!

kholk said:
I will never buy any other Windows Mobile device after this. I won't go with BrewOS, but surely I'll buy a device with an open platform OS (and opensource too, imagine what OS I'm referring to!).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Symbian?
I like where it's heading... I'm getting an Android now, but I hope Symbian will get the developer support it deserves, cause the OS itself is great: youtube.com/watch?v=qapiWqJcAAE

Windows Phone 7 WILL NOT be supported on ANY current WinMo Phones

Yes, that's correct. Windows Phone 7 will NOT be officially supported on anything that is currently on the market. Microsoft has repeatedly stated this. It has rather high end specs that very few phones on the market can even support. In addition, Microsoft has a very firm mandate on things such as having the 3, and only 3, buttons on the front of the device.
So will someone here be able to port WP7 to a current device, unofficially? It depends on which device. Does your phone have a Snapdragon CPU? If the answer is no then there is very, and I mean very, little chance of your phone ever seeing WP7. There's a few reasons but the first and foremost being that all of the binaries are compiled with the ARMv7 instruction set. So basically the only phones (that I know of) are the HTC HD2, Acer neotouch, and Toshiba TG01. The most likely is the HD2 which is actively being worked on by Da_G and probably some other people. Several Android phones also sport the snapdragon but we've yet to see an android phone with WM6 running on it so I doubt we'll see WP7 on one either. So I won't straight up rule out other phones from getting some sort of WP7 hack but it's extremely unlikely. If it somehow does, expect the performance to be extremely crappy. There's a reason MS set the requirements to what they did.
Mods: please sticky.

Stickied. WP7/CE6/(future CE7) is quite the different ball game from WM2003/WM5/WM6/WM6.5/CE5/CE5.x...
There's also the LG Expo which runs QSD/ARMv7, so is a possible target.
The major hurdle with porting is that our current devices contain Radio ROMs, Drivers, and Bootloaders which all target the CE5.x platform. CE6+ is a different beast on a low level (in a good way, there are major improvements across the board which required breaking API compatibility - these improvements have been long overdue)
With access to whitepapers documenting the hardware's interface(s) and initialization routines, Platform Builder for WP7, and a good bit of time it's certainly possible to bring any platform supporting ARMv7 up to WP7. However such information/software is not public, so it's up to the OEM to either develop this (not at all likely) or release the requisite platform BSP (also not at all likely) to enable anyone to port their devices to WP7.
There are other possible methods such as emulation, but the amount of work involved would outweigh the end result by a good margin. The OEMs major concerns with porting ROMs is the sharing of 3rd party software to which they are not authorized to license distribution (for example, HTC licenses WM from MSFT, and also licenses a number of other technologies such as swype)
One possible solution for this in an ideal world is for Qualcomm to license HTC to distribute a binary-only driver solution, similar to Nvidias driver license on *nix. Combining that with HTC's own OEM specific binary-only libraries, would give us a bare-bones Platform BSP. This would contain only technologies owned by Qualcomm and HTC. They could then release this bare bones, binary-only, pre-linking BSP, and we could, on our end, combine it with the WP7 Platform Builder, and come out with a completely stock WP7 ROM.
This would allow us to constantly update the OS version, add our own 3rd party software as needed, and eliminate the need to use "cooking" tools to build a ROM (instead we could use MSFT's own PB or a derivative of such)
In this situation there wouldn't be any licensing issues outside of Qualcomm and HTC's own IP. Will they ever do this? I doubt it. But it would be very, very nice! It would satisfy the OEM's requirement that we don't redistribute 3rd party software, and satisfy our own needs to tweak our phones to perfection. Note that Qualcomm/HTC is interchangable with any SoC developer and any OEM. Rather than Qualcomm/HTC it could be Texas Instruments/Samsung, or xxxx/yyyy
Of course there are some other snags with this (WP7 Platform Builder is not publicly available), but one can dream right?
Side note, for more info on what a BSP is from the horses mouth, look here.

Da_G, respecting all the tries that have been made till now, if ever Windows Phone 7 would be ported it would be on very certain device - like lg expo or hd2, as per the hardware requirements. it would be better to buy a windows phone 7 device than buying and porting wp7 on the above devices.
microsoft is trying to create a hype for windows phone 7, and is in the news though not much. almost all windows mobile OEMs are making wp7 devices. if an OEM is making a device with high end specs, it won't port its own software(ui) on the buggy windows mobile, but will buy license for let's say android or why not wp7. we have seen how the OEM tried hard to optimise windows mobile 6.1 and 6.5 on snapdragon. windows mobile still got the future but with limited hardware..

I am one of many owners of an HD2.
Who will lose is the MS.
Will lose many WM7 ambassadors..... will a HD2 owner, buy a new WM7 device ?.......no!.......we will port the HD2 to Android, and become one more Droid embassador.
This is the business of MS in the world of smartphones.....a no upgrade SO\Device seller.

Why would you swap to Android? When you need a new phone, a WP7 would make a good replacement for any Windows Mobile device.

Windcape said:
Why would you swap to Android? When you need a new phone, a WP7 would make a good replacement for any Windows Mobile device.
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Because its Android....its open source, its just better ok, dont question!
i think the issue is that the HD2 is more than capable of doing a lot more than it currently does and i for one have an issue with upgrading phones because of software, if i want an upgrade its for hardware reasons so naturally if other OS's can be ported to the HD2 then it will sustain my device a bit longer. until its no longer able to run what i want it to run.

Android phones are as open source as iPhones are (Android OS, and Darwin OS is open source, most of the rest is closed-source modifications).
Anyway, I don't think it's Microsoft's choice if HD2 get WP7 or not, but HTCs. And HTC look forward to a large profit margin by selling extra much hardware this year, so obviously they wouldn't want to upgrade HD2 -- at least not the first six months.

Windcape said:
Why would you swap to Android? When you need a new phone, a WP7 would make a good replacement for any Windows Mobile device.
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Because I paid well for it,a shortly time, and i dont want to spend more money, to bought a new Device, always MS upgrade the OS....opposite of the top devices with Android or iphone.
was my mistake, I can not blame anyone else, I was naive in thinking that it would take a WM7 upgrade due to good specs of HD2.
my mistake.
But I will not throw out my HD2

For the iPhone you get a upgrade for a small price, for Android you're completely relying on the mercy of your manufacturer. And the less you pay, the less chance in hell there is you get a update, special for Android phones.
You're being naive if you think Android is any different here.

3 buttons is a must? Nog sure if that could be true... some manufacturers would be left out/give up themselves because of this constraint.
7 for phones... MSFT is losing smartphones market share. Trust me... they will make it available for the... gen pop

Is this suppose to be news? I though everyone knew by now that WM7 will not be supporting current Winmo phones....

It's not meant to be news, it's meant to stop people asking will WP7 be ported to my TP2/Diamond2/(insert current wm phone name here) question

Does this mean WP7 can only be for snapdragon and not OMAP, hummingbird, tegra 2 and all the other arm cpu's out there?

ari-free said:
Does this mean WP7 can only be for snapdragon and not OMAP, hummingbird, tegra 2 and all the other arm cpu's out there?
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Little is officially known about this however it's believed that at first only Snapdragon will be supported. But with Samsung being a partner and other companies certainly wanting choice, it won't last forever. Samsung devices very well may have a Hummingbird but Samsung would just have to develop more of the drivers whereas MSFT is developing everything for Snapdragon.

I just assumed older arm cpu's wouldn't be supported. But only snapdragon? ugh...
I'm not a big fan of HTC because they insist on using snapdragons in their supposedly high end phones.
btw Samsung will probably not use hummingbird in future phones because Apple bought out intrinsity. But I can't imagine them wanting to use snapdragon...they'd probably want to use the OMAP4 which has the same powerVR GPU, the SGX540. OMAP3's cpu is actually better than hummingbird so I don't think anyone will be crying over the Apple acquisition.

In my opinion, HTC could disable a couple of the buttons on my HD2 if it made it applicable for WP7. Though, on the other hand, I see as much reason to upgrade to WP7 as to go for an iPhone. I'd rather iPuke my iGuts out. WP7 looks iAweful and I think it iSucks pretty bad.
I understand Microsoft's rationale for making the specs as strict as they have, as this is the sole reason iPoo...iPhone is so stable. There's simply no room for flawed drivers, and there's only one "option"

ari-free said:
I just assumed older arm cpu's wouldn't be supported. But only snapdragon? ugh...
I'm not a big fan of HTC because they insist on using snapdragons in their supposedly high end phones.
btw Samsung will probably not use hummingbird in future phones because Apple bought out intrinsity. But I can't imagine them wanting to use snapdragon...they'd probably want to use the OMAP4 which has the same powerVR GPU, the SGX540. OMAP3's cpu is actually better than hummingbird so I don't think anyone will be crying over the Apple acquisition.
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I thought Samsung owned/designed Hummingbird?
But at any rate, MSFT will likely open it up later on. They're just keeping it simple for now. Not enough of a difference to start writing/testing drivers for all these different platforms.

tiwas said:
In my opinion, HTC could disable a couple of the buttons on my HD2 if it made it applicable for WP7.
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Having seen videos on how the camera button works, you can now understand why you cant just bodge WP7 onto a HD2.

DMAND said:
Having seen videos on how the camera button works, you can now understand why you cant just bodge WP7 onto a HD2.
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Their internal test devices didn't have hardware camera buttons.

Yes but all retail ones will, one that require half presses for focusing which none of the hd2 buttons could be forced to do if I'm correct.