Develop Bugs

Keyboard not optimaly designed?

Guys,
I have been using HTC devices for many years now:
Pison 5MX, HP Jornada 720, HTC Alpin, HTC Trinity, HTC Kaiser and HTC Polaris!
The form factor of the new TP2 is brilliant.
HOWEVER, the keyboard is just not designed very efficiently for me because it is half of the size of the total width. Which means that the rear part is not used for the keyboard.
I would have preferred a FULL keyboard such as the one on the HTC Universal or on the Psion 5MX or Jornada 720!
I don't understand the point of designing a PDA with a built-in keyboard if the keyboard is just too small which makes it even not usuable. The one on the Kaiser was so small.
HTC produced the Universal with a full sized keyboard using the full width of the screen.
Why not on the newest models?
Any ideas?

I've had a few thoughts being a long time mini-keyboard user...
It's true that a bigger keyboard can make things easier, but for typing with your thumbs, too big is also a problem due to limited reach.
Typing with a Psion 5 was not great with two thumbs, and with a phone you want to type on the go, so this is more important than 2 handed typing while at a desk / other solid surface. As most people want to carry their phone with them a Psion 5 sized phone would not be too popular!
Having a full width & height keyboard while keeping the ability to put the keyboard away (for touch screen only use) will usually require a bulky tilt & twist hinge (like on Zaurus C series, Clie UX / NX, or HTC universal), which means the screen has to be smaller / narrower. Quickly sliding out a keyboard to hammer out a text is faster than opening and then twisting a hinge.
The Kaiser keyboard was fantastic in my opinion - I could type very quickly on it, probably not far off my Psion 5 speed (as when you didn't hit the Psion keys in the centre, they did not always work).
Have you any ideas for achieving a bigger keyboard without compromising on the screen size, usability or overall size of the phone?

I don't have a problem with the Keyboard size at all. I think it's just about perfect. My problem is the fact that they made the buttons much bigger and removed 10 keys from the original touch pro. Yeah, It makes it easier for some, but I know I'd rather have the keys. The keyboard still would have had really big buttons.

As a happy Universal owner I understand very well the point of sayborg.
As far as I know the only devices with great keyboards are:
Universal
Advantage
Shift
Toth (New)
But the last 3 options are too big...
I´m in the same interrogant? I want/need to upgrade my 2005 Universal but nothing I can see in the near future as a REAL replacement
TP2 is the closer one I can think
Hope HTC have some secret devices on that form factor, but I doub it

I don't know what to think about the keyboard yet. The buttons feel good, not slippery. The number keys at the top are a pain in the ass because the lip of the top layer is slightly overlapping making it just annoying enough to bug me. On screen keyboard is pretty tight. No complaints there.

DavidMc0 said:
I've had a few thoughts being a long time mini-keyboard user...
It's true that a bigger keyboard can make things easier, but for typing with your thumbs, too big is also a problem due to limited reach.
Typing with a Psion 5 was not great with two thumbs, and with a phone you want to type on the go, so this is more important than 2 handed typing while at a desk / other solid surface. As most people want to carry their phone with them a Psion 5 sized phone would not be too popular!
Having a full width & height keyboard while keeping the ability to put the keyboard away (for touch screen only use) will usually require a bulky tilt & twist hinge (like on Zaurus C series, Clie UX / NX, or HTC universal), which means the screen has to be smaller / narrower. Quickly sliding out a keyboard to hammer out a text is faster than opening and then twisting a hinge.
The Kaiser keyboard was fantastic in my opinion - I could type very quickly on it, probably not far off my Psion 5 speed (as when you didn't hit the Psion keys in the centre, they did not always work).
Have you any ideas for achieving a bigger keyboard without compromising on the screen size, usability or overall size of the phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the comments guys!
Well, for me, it would have been nicer to keep the SAME size of the current TP2 but with a wider keyboard, this wouldn't make the device bigger because the rear part/surface of the keyboard is even not used. A wider keyboard wouldn't cost more and wouldn't be heavier.
I thing the problem is that the producers of such devices are usually not consumers. I doubt that poeple who have designed such devices have as much usage experience as us. They sometimes lack of subtilty I think.
I also think that there is no perfect repalcement of the HTC Universal which is sad.
There is also the Acer M900 which has an OK keyboard but it is not tilting and again the keyboard is not designed efficiently/optimally for me but again this is a personal opinion!
For me there is no point to have a 2,8 " PDA whith a build-in keyboard. Keys are just to small...
Maybe one day, we will see the perfect HTC Device...

sayborg said:
Maybe one day, we will see the perfect HTC Device...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's true that we aren't there yet, but as far as hardware I think the Rhodium is getting pretty dame close. Huge screen, sturdy construction, physical slideout keyboard, and a large enough screen that the onscreen finger keyboard is very usable. These are many things that I've been waiting for. The only thing that can make the design better is to make it thiner which will take so time in tech advancement.
I still think they shouldn't be losing some of the buttons they had on the titan/tilt style phones (d-pad and soft key hardware buttons). However, I'm probably not giving the usability of the touch interface enough credit.
As long as the software is up to par (hadware acceleration and strong usability) then it's all gravy. This is the device I've been waiting for for a long time. I'm also thinking that once it's been out a year or so The Android roms for it will be pretty advanced and very capable. Overall, this has a TON of potential and I think it will be the first phone I don't constantly look forward to the next version on.

I just hope against hope that they have enabled hardware acceleration on this phone. If we have another non-implemented 2D/3D driver while relying on CPU power for rendering gsnarfle... I'd be most unhappy.
That's one of the big reasons I'm looking to move away from my Mogul... while it's a decent phone, they seem to have shot it in the leg and then told it to go run a marathon.
It may be my ignorance to the matter, but I hope that all the touchflo3D phones have full hardware acceleration support!

sayborg said:
Thanks for the comments guys!
Well, for me, it would have been nicer to keep the SAME size of the current TP2 but with a wider keyboard, this wouldn't make the device bigger because the rear part/surface of the keyboard is even not used. A wider keyboard wouldn't cost more and wouldn't be heavier.
I thing the problem is that the producers of such devices are usually not consumers. I doubt that poeple who have designed such devices have as much usage experience as us. They sometimes lack of subtilty I think.
I also think that there is no perfect repalcement of the HTC Universal which is sad.
There is also the Acer M900 which has an OK keyboard but it is not tilting and again the keyboard is not designed efficiently/optimally for me but again this is a personal opinion!
For me there is no point to have a 2,8 " PDA whith a build-in keyboard. Keys are just to small...
Maybe one day, we will see the perfect HTC Device...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well honestly I think I think if they used the whole width it would take up to much space be harder to reach the keys on the ends of the keyboard with your thumbs., and also the kaiser keyboard is not bad, it is very easy to type on for me and I can type fast, adn honestly I think they are making hte keyboards smaller cause its easier to use them on the go,
but look at a pic of the touch pro 2 keyaboard they did make it use mroe space, so they know what you mean it does make typing easier, but for phones with HUGE keyboards.. well most people dont want a phone that big but honestly they used almost all of the space on the touch pro 2 for the keyboard

The only thing that worries me is the lack of the windows key and the ok button. Those two will be missed greatly. Otherwise, I think the keyboard will be a huge improvement over my Mogul's.

sayborg said:
I also think that there is no perfect repalcement of the HTC Universal which is sad.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Eh sorry. While i havent used any touch device yet, i looked at the Universal, and one word jumped out at me.. Bulky. That thing just looks to big and clunky to be of any fluid use.
I was actually happy when i saw a pitcure of the TP2 keyboard. They keys look like a good size, and the bit of space between them i was happy to see because i toyed with the fuze/tilt and i fat-fingered with that keyboard enough to annoy me.
As far as removing keys... as Ranch Wilder would say..."Less is more". Just because a device as more keys/buttons doesn't mean its better. Take the Logitech G11 keyboard. They dumped a bunch of Macro keys on it, most of which never got used, and only made the keyboard take up more space. Their next version of the G15, the removed alot of the G keys (macro keys) to cut the size down, but there's still plenty to be useful.
I think its more a matter of people being use to so many keys, however i think the touch interface will more than make up for it. Plus i guess that puts me at and advantage where this will be my first phone with a keyboard.

If you feel the keys are too small, tell this to the Blackberry users.

I think the keyboard was stretched pretty close to the edges, I think its fine. the universal has a different target audience than the touch pro 2 if you want the PERFECT universal replacement I suggest this phone:
http://www.htc.com/www/product/shift/specification.html
but I never used or saw a universal so im not sure, but the shift is a really nice phone with a big keyboard and it has ALOT of speed, but it costs alot more than most phones and is wont fit in your pocket either but it seems like the perfect replacement plus it runs windows vista! a real os not a mobile one
and it has a finger print scanner built in whats not to like about that.

CAPS & Function Keys
I cannot imagine why the CAPS(shift) and Function keys are not reversed! Didn't the designers look at a computer keyboard?
So my question is - can the key functions be changed in the software and can the keycaps be popped off and switched?

orb3000 said:
Hope HTC have some secret devices on that form factor, but I doub it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Alas, I have been wishing this for years...
when the original Universal came out, as a college student, I didn't have the means for a Universal...
All I can do now is hope...

Touch Pro II vs. Touch HD

Well, im ready to upgrade from my 3125 (which is starting to fail after 2 years) to a touch screened WinMo phone (despite several friends/co-workers trying to get me into the iphone) I was strongly for the Touch HD for a while, then the Touch Pro II was announced and i started looking into it. Its not a bad phone.
Question is, which would be better overall?
The biggest selling point for the HD is the 3.5mm audio jack (why HTC or other phone manufactures dont make this standard ill never know, given the high demand and how pretty much every phone plays music now). My 3125 does play music, and has front audio controls (which ive discovered are more of a hassle than a bonus) ive found i dont use it to play music as much as i hoped i would. This is, in majority, due to the lack of a 3.5 jack. I managed to get a Bluetooh Stereo receiver, however the sound quality is sub-par, and it creates severe lag with the phone, and so, i rarely use it.
I do sync it to my outlook, use it to update appointments, notifications and contact list (im super forgetful of events, so it helps remind me)
Now on the flip side, the biggest selling point for the Touch Pro 2 is the hard keyboard (obviously). While i messed around with a soft keyboard on an iPod Touch, and im pretty sure i could get use to it, ive read that the HD used a resistant screen, so it wouldn't be as responsive as the ipod touch/iphone. Plus it would be nice to have hardware keys for fun stuff such as playing mobile games.
Outside of those two unique features, they seem like identical smartphones. I just have a couple questions about them..
1. This may be a stupid one, but since im in the U.S. i have to ask. It looks like the Touch Pro 2 will be able to go on the AT&T network (seeing as how T-Mobile is bringing it in), but Will the Touch HD also be accepted on the AT&T network? (i do understand it will NOT do 3g. I have no plans to use the network in that fashion, and if i do, non-3g will be enough)
2. Does the Touch Pro 2 have a G sensor for screen rotation and the like? From videos ive seen, it only shows it switching the screen orientation when they pull out the keyboard. And the G-sensor is something i would like to take advantage of.
3. Do both devices use the 'standard' (i use that term loosely) mini-usb connection? (same that's on the touch pro). I ask to see if the Mini-usb connections (such as the 3.5 jack converter) will work on it. It looks like the touch pro 2 does use it, but i haven't seen the jack on the HD as of yet.
3. I know the HD doesn't have IR, does the Touch Pro 2? (not essential, but it would be fun to play around with and make a remote out of it)
4. On the Touch Pro 2, will it play Media files using the 'Straight Talk' loud speaker? Additionally, hows the sound quality of that speaker?
Now, the TP2 looks pretty nice, and very functional & business like. However im not much into business (aside from programming) and will likely not use the conference feature much, if at all. The HD is more of the multi-media phone which is more or less what i want, but i cant ignore all the features and the hard keyboard of the Touch Pro 2.
Opinions? Comments?

ALL HTC devices made in the last 2 years or so have used the extUSB connection proprietary (although the spec is in the open) to HTC. It combines Audio/video with the usb port. You can use a standard mini USB cable in this port though.
TouchHD will work on AT&T 3g.
There is an accelerometer in the Touch Pro2.
IR has been deleted from later HTC devices if I have my facts correct.
Audio is played through the speaker unless you have headphones connected.
cheers.

i also wanted the htc hd but had my reservations about no hard press buttons. now that the TP2 will soon be available i will get that for sure!!!(qwerty)!!!

I would DEFINITELY go with they touch pro 2, sure the screen is a bit smaller but hardly, and also it does ahve a g-snsor, and also I here are specs for the touch pro 2 from htc website
http://www.htc.com/www/product/touchpro2/specification.html
and heres teh specs for the hd:
http://www.htc.com/www/product/touchhd/specification.html
also a slightly higer capacity battery in the touch pro 2

I know it has the hardware keyboard, but can you still use the softkeys if you didnt want to flip out the other one?
I am leaning toward the TP2, tho it means i have to wait for IT to be released, and my 3125 is quickly falling apart. :\
I think im going to stick with AT&T tho rather than switching to T-Mobile.. Anyone have any estimates on how soon it will be available to the US (unlocked)?

I know it has the hardware keyboard, but can you still use the softkeys if you didnt want to flip out the other one?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Definitely.

Dude go for the Touch Pro II, i currently have the HD, but i need a physical keyboad since i tend to type alot on it, mails & sms's
Th eonly up side for the HD against TPII is its 3.5 audio jack, camera and slightly bigger screen of .2''

Don't forget the HD is a much slimmer phone, its even thinner than the Diamond 2 and only a little bit thicker than the original Diamond. May not be that important to you, but if you carry your phone around with you it can make quite a difference.

I have HD and ...
I have HD myself and it works OK in US. I'm using GSM only (no 3G) as you are going to.
Both phones are quad-band GSM phones, so they will work on TMO and ATT (GSM only).
TP2 also has TV Out which HD lacks.
Previously I had HTC Wizard with slide-out kbd. If you type a lot - physical kbd is a MUST. I'm ok with soft-kbd on HD, but I do not type much. But when I chat on ICQ ... man, I miss that kbd from Wizard.
Also HD seems much thinner (at least from videos I saw). That could be a factor.
Both miss front D-Pad - it turns out - big drawback for me Too many games rely on d-pad. I mean - real games It started to change though.
Bottom line ... if you type a lot and play games a lot - get TP2. Or need TV Out. Otherwise - get HD.
Personally - I'm staying with HD.

Basically the situation is a little funny. The Touch HD, Touch Pro 2, and Touch Diamond 2, are all pretty much the same exact phone. All the hardware is the same, all software is the same, only difference is the exterior casing.
Between HD and Diamond2, I have no idea what they are trying to do. You can buy a HD and flash it to the new topaz ROM, and bam you have a touch diamond2, like out of a time machine from the future! In fact the HD casing is nicer/thinner than the Diamond2, so it's even better!
For Pro2, it's exactly a touch HD/Diamond2 + a keyboard. For this you can say it's better if you don't mind the extra thickness, it's up to you between how much you want a keyboard and how much you want a thin phone. All the small keyboards from no matter what phone I don't like, they are too small to be used seriously, if I need to seriously type, I would bring a foldable full-size BT keyboard with me in pocket. But this is my preference. If you want keyboard, get pro2, if you don't, get HD.
I don't know where diamond2 fits in, it's same as HD but worse, it's thicker and smaller screen and no headphone jack and you have to wait to buy it while HD is out now, does that make any sense?

Sate said:
Basically the situation is a little funny. The Touch HD, Touch Pro 2, and Touch Diamond 2, are all pretty much the same exact phone. All the hardware is the same, all software is the same, only difference is the exterior casing.
Between HD and Diamond2, I have no idea what they are trying to do. You can buy a HD and flash it to the new topaz ROM, and bam you have a touch diamond2, like out of a time machine from the future! In fact the HD casing is nicer/thinner than the Diamond2, so it's even better!
For Pro2, it's exactly a touch HD/Diamond2 + a keyboard. For this you can say it's better if you don't mind the extra thickness, it's up to you between how much you want a keyboard and how much you want a thin phone. All the small keyboards from no matter what phone I don't like, they are too small to be used seriously, if I need to seriously type, I would bring a foldable full-size BT keyboard with me in pocket. But this is my preference. If you want keyboard, get pro2, if you don't, get HD.
I don't know where diamond2 fits in, it's same as HD but worse, it's thicker and smaller screen and no headphone jack and you have to wait to buy it while HD is out now, does that make any sense?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well its smaller, also its got the sharpest screen, and also its not THAT much thicker but it is smaller and I think has better battery life but I see what you mean I want the touch pro 2 but if not that then the hd

I´ll definetly take the TP2, it has a physical keyboard!!!
For me is a must

Found 2 cents in my pocket, let me add it to the mix a roo
Ok, so I battled back and forth between the Sony X1 and the HD, I live in the US and my girlfriend in the UK so she was doing the shopping and the guy at the store was telling her go for the X1 if it were him thats what he would choose. That would be great coming from a TyTnII then a Kaiser, BUT i was SOOOO sick of all of the Iphone fantards that there was no way I was gonna pass the opportunity to get a killer device that would shut them the F up so i got the HD. I worked in mobile phone sales after high school in the mid 90s so I have been around them for ages and the Motorola flip phone was the greatest thing on earth. The Touch HD is by far the greatest hand held mobile device I have ever had. Looks great, works very well and even the Iphoners were saying well I dont need to record video and and and well I can read my MRIs on my phone and play slot machines to decide where to have dinner. Umm ok shut up and go play with your little toy in your room right. All this aside, i HATED not having a keyboard/D pad. This phone was the toast of the Beverly Hills Hotel and I broke the no mobile phones on your person rule and my manager never even uttered a word. No way I was leaving that beauty in my locker right! I tried every program for keyboards and still after all that, I sold it! Shipped it out yesterday as a matter of fact, and almost cried (not really but i almost told the guy i broke it and was gonna refund his money). SO with that said when the TP2 comes out, I WILL be back to typing fast and not screwing up and taking 2 min to type Ok ill be right over, do I need to stop off and pick up condoms and vodka!
Things I will miss
The look of the phone, its cool and sleek, but I felt like it was a little cheap feeling, i like feeling that my phone can stop an assasins bullet if need be. With the HD im a dead muthasucka
The 3.5MM headphone jack, BUT there is a tiny little adaptor i found online that looks kinda cool and not long and silly looking.
WAP vs the HTML internet, but I was assured by a post on another page that with Opera Mini (geesh) i should not have any concerns with surfing the net
.2 inch larger screen. This microscopic difference is so insignificant that even that much growth on my anatomy would be un noticed right, so who cares.
Not sure if there is a stylus but I like using that at times but we shall see about that.
Anyway I guess if you couldnt tell Im leaning way towards TP2, even though there is no D pad (wtf) and i need an adaptor to use my headphones, taking less time to type emails and such is very important and that is why i have to buy!!!!
This is the link for that headset adaptor, i think its like $7
http://www.javoedge.com/reflexeshop...&pbmId=16020&gclid=CMargqeD45kCFRBbagod8z-bQg

johseph said:
Ok, so I battled back and forth between the Sony X1 and the HD, I live in the US and my girlfriend in the UK so she was doing the shopping and the guy at the store was telling her go for the X1 if it were him thats what he would choose. That would be great coming from a TyTnII then a Kaiser, BUT i was SOOOO sick of all of the Iphone fantards that there was no way I was gonna pass the opportunity to get a killer device that would shut them the F up so i got the HD. I worked in mobile phone sales after high school in the mid 90s so I have been around them for ages and the Motorola flip phone was the greatest thing on earth. The Touch HD is by far the greatest hand held mobile device I have ever had. Looks great, works very well and even the Iphoners were saying well I dont need to record video and and and well I can read my MRIs on my phone and play slot machines to decide where to have dinner. Umm ok shut up and go play with your little toy in your room right. All this aside, i HATED not having a keyboard/D pad. This phone was the toast of the Beverly Hills Hotel and I broke the no mobile phones on your person rule and my manager never even uttered a word. No way I was leaving that beauty in my locker right! I tried every program for keyboards and still after all that, I sold it! Shipped it out yesterday as a matter of fact, and almost cried (not really but i almost told the guy i broke it and was gonna refund his money). SO with that said when the TP2 comes out, I WILL be back to typing fast and not screwing up and taking 2 min to type Ok ill be right over, do I need to stop off and pick up condoms and vodka!
Things I will miss
The look of the phone, its cool and sleek, but I felt like it was a little cheap feeling, i like feeling that my phone can stop an assasins bullet if need be. With the HD im a dead muthasucka
The 3.5MM headphone jack, BUT there is a tiny little adaptor i found online that looks kinda cool and not long and silly looking.
WAP vs the HTML internet, but I was assured by a post on another page that with Opera Mini (geesh) i should not have any concerns with surfing the net
.2 inch larger screen. This microscopic difference is so insignificant that even that much growth on my anatomy would be un noticed right, so who cares.
Not sure if there is a stylus but I like using that at times but we shall see about that.
Anyway I guess if you couldnt tell Im leaning way towards TP2, even though there is no D pad (wtf) and i need an adaptor to use my headphones, taking less time to type emails and such is very important and that is why i have to buy!!!!
This is the link for that headset adaptor, i think its like $7
http://www.javoedge.com/reflexeshop...&pbmId=16020&gclid=CMargqeD45kCFRBbagod8z-bQg
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have an adapter that's kinda like that but more of a squarish shape. Also yeah I don't think the diamond 2 is that ood of a phone comparedt to the other 2 but it is also the cheapest, but im not sure but it does have a few advantages over the diamond like battery life, size, and yeah the thickness isnt that much of a difference anyways, so it baiscally depends on how much size on a phone you will sacrafice for a bigger screen

Link278 said:
I have an adapter that's kinda like that but more of a squarish shape. Also yeah I don't think the diamond 2 is that ood of a phone comparedt to the other 2 but it is also the cheapest, but im not sure but it does have a few advantages over the diamond like battery life, size, and yeah the thickness isnt that much of a difference anyways, so it baiscally depends on how much size on a phone you will sacrafice for a bigger screen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, I am like you. I hesitated between TD2 and HD (I do not like keyboards, I do not do enough typing on my phone/pda to accept the added thickness, soft keyboard is enough for me).
I am more leaning to TD2: cheaper, smaller so more pocketable make it my number one pick over the HD (although would miss the 3.8'' screen, 3.2 is just a little bit small - my perfect device would be TD2 with a 3.4/3.5'' screen (it is possible keeping the overall size, just reducing screen borders, especially the empty space under the buttons...), and either thinner or, even better, with a larger battery...I have seen pics of the batter of the TD2 and TD1, and TD2 batter seems 2 times as large as the TD1....why is it only 1100 mAh is beyond me, by the look of it I would have expected at leat 1300-1400 mAh, it is either thinner or HTC is being conservative with its battery capacities....
3.5mm jack is a little bit annoying, but I seldom listem music on my phone anyway, so either an adapter or the included earphones would not bother me too much

I had both the Touch HD and the Xperia X1i. I love the big screen but i miss the keyboard. I would have stayed with the Xperia but the speaker sucked and I often missed calls. I'm looking to get the Touch Pro 2 as it seems to be a combination of both phones to me. i hope the speaker is as good as the Touch HD, if not better.

gkai said:
Yep, I am like you. I hesitated between TD2 and HD (I do not like keyboards, I do not do enough typing on my phone/pda to accept the added thickness, soft keyboard is enough for me).
I am more leaning to TD2: cheaper, smaller so more pocketable make it my number one pick over the HD (although would miss the 3.8'' screen, 3.2 is just a little bit small - my perfect device would be TD2 with a 3.4/3.5'' screen (it is possible keeping the overall size, just reducing screen borders, especially the empty space under the buttons...), and either thinner or, even better, with a larger battery...I have seen pics of the batter of the TD2 and TD1, and TD2 batter seems 2 times as large as the TD1....why is it only 1100 mAh is beyond me, by the look of it I would have expected at leat 1300-1400 mAh, it is either thinner or HTC is being conservative with its battery capacities....
3.5mm jack is a little bit annoying, but I seldom listem music on my phone anyway, so either an adapter or the included earphones would not bother me too much
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that some companies make unofficial batteries that are like 2 times the size so u might want to get one of those then

Cheeze[iT] said:
I had both the Touch HD and the Xperia X1i. I love the big screen but i miss the keyboard. I would have stayed with the Xperia but the speaker sucked and I often missed calls. I'm looking to get the Touch Pro 2 as it seems to be a combination of both phones to me. i hope the speaker is as good as the Touch HD, if not better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am pretty sure it will be amazing since it has 2 speakers

Yea, the 3.5mm jack is getting to be less important over the keyboard. Mainly due to the fact that their is an adapter from the usb, and if i got the HD, i couldn't do much about the keyboard.
I know their is no D-pad, but the TP2 Does have the hard keyboard, with Arrow keys.. couldn't you use that to play games?
As far as uses? I dont know. I dont much experience using a phone with a keyboard so i couldn't say if i will use it a lot until i have it available to me. I could very likely get use to the soft keyboard, but if i had a hard keyboard, id like get use to that over the soft. My 3125 is a normal number pad so either the hard or soft would be an improvement for me.
The headphone jack, ive been thinking that i likely wouldn't use quite as much. The only time i get the opportunity to listen to music is when im either driving, or waiting on something and frankly when im out in public i dont like putting on headphones because it makes me oblivious to whats going on around me. Plus, as stated, i could easily get an adapter now that their are several available.
Even tho ill have to wait that much longer (2 more months.. meeehh) i think im falling in the TP2's direction.

Here's a cahrt comparing the features of the Touch Pro, Touch Pro 2, Diamond 2 and Touch HD: http://www.fuzemobility.com/the-titans-compared/
I thinkt he HD does very well actually...in fact if it gets a software update it may be the winner with the largest screen (it's really great to type on).

Odds the Fuze II will get the Fuze's style keyboard?

Alright, rant time.
The Rhodium/Touch Pro I Keyboard suck. Okay, maybe that word is too harsh, but they're a giant waste of buttons. Phone keyboards are small, they don't have room for much. but the Fuze's keyboard, shifting the number buttons into the familiar phone style, overlayed on existing keys, allows for tons of buttons to be freed up - freed up for extremely useful punctuation buttons.
Personally, my passwords always have punctuation marks in them. I can only imagine the time it'd take to open that menu every time to place in a punctuation mark. Not to mention how immensely easy it is for parentheses, dashes, slashes, hyphens - you name it. They're right there, easy as can be to hit.
The Rhodium keyboard is, once again, a total failure for this extremely important oversight. I mean, this is the NUMBER ONE feature keeping me from upgrading from my Fuze (that and a LED on the back are the only two things, though I could get past the LED issue.)
How do we get HTC to figure this out? I mean, I know the Touch Pro has more actual buttons than the Rhodium, but that doesn't mean there wasn't plenty of room to add in these punctuation features.
This and the crazy omission of the LED on the back... two giant disappointments on this phone. And yet, everytime I look at the once-loved wheel and button area on my phone, I just see wasted space for a bigger screen. Why HTC, why?!

The punctuations are put as secondary functions you access with FN, just like how the numbers are with the FUZE. There are plenty of keys without secondary functions they can be applied to. But who knows what the AT&T version's keyboard will be like. The leaked roadmap had a wired QWERTZ layout with a red color and totally different and (in my opinion) horrible button layout. I with they would keep the 12x5 instead of going down to 10x5 like all the other Touch Pro 2s.

I wish they would do that as well, but they are changing the nature of the buttons, so I doubt that will happen until they increase the size of the phone.
Which I hope they do soon. The Rhodium is a great sized phone, and fits in my palm easily. It's extremely comfortable to hold. But I think, eventually, they cannot just expand the phone horizontally.
I never held an HD, but I assume it still feels good in the palm. I just wish ALL phone companies would recognize the value of an attached keyboard, and work at perfecting it, instead of this stupid "Hey look on-screen keyboard" deal.

After the 8125, 8525, 8925 (Fuze), it is very unlikely that the Fortress will have anything but the AT&T keyboard layout. As for the LED, it is so minor that I could really care less. Yeah torchlight is a crowd favorite at parties (LMAO), but I never use it for the intended purpose of the camera.
Besides, have you seen this video(s): http://www.fuzemobility.com/excellent-htc-touch-pro-ii-video-review/
If this doesn't sell the device then nothing will. The Touch Pro II is simply the baddest ass device out right now. When the US Carriers get it and it becomes under half the cost of the HTC Branded Touch Pro (with 2 year contract), how much better does it get?

Well the BIGGEST problem is - I bought my Touch Pro last November, and I have no problem forking over another 350 for the Touch Pro II, but the deal of this two-year contract at AT&T seems to care differently.
(Upon closer look, the number keys do have a lot of alternative features to them. Though I still see wasted space, it's not as bad as before.)
So yeah, how do I get AT&T to... say... let me renew my contact a year earlier and possibly take my Fuze back as refurb?
EDIT: That review really did sell me on the product. I was really thinking this was just a Touch Pro in a different shell, but clearly it is a much more powerful beast. I hope it stays that fast and speedy throughout its life, I know I've flashed a ROM on my Touch Pro only to wake up to a buggy, laggy mess. That phone did look awesome.

bump for more information

I went from a fuze 2 the touch pro 2, and the new keyboard layout does take getting use of, but it is better and really feels good cause if the heightened keys

Does the keyboard have as many punctuation options as the Fuze? Or at least the more used ones?

23 punctuation marks on TP2
22 punctuation marks on the TP1 Fuze
Most of the punctuation on the TP2 is with using the Fn key though.

Even the + - options? What is the extra punctuation mark?
I'm so glad the keyboard has all of these options. Now the only thing I'm worried over is the lack of flash, but that is the ONLY issue I have. The Touch Pro II only needs to come out in the US. I can't wait.
How is it with getting hot like the Fuze does?

Rhodium or Hero

Tell me guys.
Went from a tytn2 to a Raphael...
Should I go for the Hero or TP2 ?

Never used a Hero.
The TP2 from T-Mobile is hands-down the best WM-based device I've ever had my paws on. You can pry it from my cold, dead fingers.....

Macedon2000 said:
Should I go for the Hero or TP2 ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you want a Windows Mobile phone with a brilliant physical keyboard and lots of neat business features that also does a reasonable job of multimedia, or do you want an Android-powered, multimedia-oriented device with a capacitive touchscreen that supports multi-touch, and which also does a reasonable job of business-oriented stuff? The two are really very different. It would make more sense to be having trouble deciding between a Hero an iPhone - they're much more similar in philosophy (IMO).

i dint really get the difference between the two types of screens...capacitive and resistive.
I played a bit with an iPhone 3GS today and it felt really good...i like the iPhone because everything just works... but I got bored after 3min of playing with it.
just the thought of not being able to flash new roms etc. makes me puke.
I like my RAPH but i would like a bigger screen, better(faster/smoother) handling of multimedia(pics/music/video) like iPod on iPhone, sort of.
so its down to winmo or android.

I was also thinking weather to go for hero or the touch pro2 but the touch pro2 has an amazing keyboard and watching movies on it look pretty impressive and i dont mind it not using a 3.5 mm jack as i use a stereo bluetooth headset. So i went for the touch pro2 and WOW im glad i did, im writing this from my touch pro 2 now.
It also has a reasonably good stock rom, the stock rom on my wizard was hopeless and if it wasnt for xda-developers i would never of had it for so long.

TP2 definetly, because the hardware keyboard that for me is a must!

The telephone conferencing and voice features are really good. Easy to setup and to use. Sound is good too. Credit to HTC for adding features that are fundamental to a what a good business phone should have.

I really don't like the way the Hero looks. Just for that I would go with the TP2.

Macedon2000 said:
i dint really get the difference between the two types of screens...capacitive and resistive.
I played a bit with an iPhone 3GS today and it felt really good...i like the iPhone because everything just works... but I got bored after 3min of playing with it.
just the thought of not being able to flash new roms etc. makes me puke.
I like my RAPH but i would like a bigger screen, better(faster/smoother) handling of multimedia(pics/music/video) like iPod on iPhone, sort of.
so its down to winmo or android.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
capacitive screens are designed for finger-friendly touches. when you touch the screen with your finger, the press generates an electric stimulus that the phone reads as a press. capacitive screens can't use normal styli, so there is a loss in accuracy
resistive screens are designed for accuracy, due to the use of styli

I got the Tmobile Touch Pro2 and I am very happy with it - awesome screen size and acceptable thickness for a fullsize keyboard. hulu.com on skyfire for this screensize totally rocks. I have heard that the flash browser of Hero is slow, but then again - it hasn't been XDA-fied yet (not that I know of, anyway).
But I am in the same boat as you - want the Hero too!!!
Good news is that I have a work ATT phone that will be up for renewal in October, hopefully when the Hero comes in!
Can't really help you with your choice except say - go to the Tmobile store and see the TMobile touch pro2 in person.
And don't count out the diamond2 either.
It truly is a great time to have HTC shares....hmmm maybe I should be looking into that! lol!

poppinpengawen said:
capacitive screens are designed for finger-friendly touches. when you touch the screen with your finger, the press generates an electric stimulus that the phone reads as a press. capacitive screens can't use normal styli, so there is a loss in accuracy
resistive screens are designed for accuracy, due to the use of styli
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Resistive screens need to be pressed quite hard, while capacitive ones only need to be touched lightly. Capacitive screens tend to be more responsive, so they will probably track your finger better when scrolling, and there's less likely to be any ambiguity about whether you've pressed something or not. But the most significant difference (aside from the fact that you can't use a stylus with a capacitive screen) is that a capacitive screen, given appropiate OS support, can support multi-touch - that is, it can detect being pressed in more than one place at once.
So, on the Hero and iPhone if you're running (say) Google Earth, you can rotate the map by putting your thumb and forefinger on the screen and twisting your hand. You can also zoom in and out by putting thumb and forefinger either side of a section of the screen, then moving them together or apart. This is much more convenient and intuitive than the TP2's zoom bar.

Macedon2000 said:
I played a bit with an iPhone 3GS today and it felt really good...i like the iPhone because everything just works... but I got bored after 3min of playing with it.
just the thought of not being able to flash new roms etc. makes me puke.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A jail-broken iPhone is actually pretty flexible.
I almost bought an iPhone rather than a TP2. It was really only the cost that put me off in the end. (Not the absolute cost, but it's too expensive for what it is). The user-interface design on an iPhone really is beautiful - it's not just that everything works, it's that everything works intuitively and quickly and neatly. The lack of a physical keyboard was also a problem for me (as I'm rather clumsy and have short, fat fingers) but the on-screen keyboard on an iPhone is the best I've seen; and the lower resolution of the screen (on iPhone or Hero) niggles a bit - for mobile web-browsing the extra screen res on a TP2 or Diamond2 really makes a difference for reading small text.
The call quality is also very good on a TP2 - I need phones to be clear and loud as I'm partially deaf. People hear you very clearly on the TP2 as well, thanks to the high-quality soise-cancelling microphones.

lets compare the iphone touch to our touch screen.

after using this phone for about 12 days i can say that itouch/iphone requires no adjustment at all.
i havent used itouch before either the first time i held it in my hand it worked flawlessly.
there was not many missed buttons and accidental clicks on the itouch.
capacitive screen is the way to go for finger operation.
but itouch and iphone also are made specifically for finger touch.
so all the buttons are bigger, the scroll bars are bigger.
on the touch pro 2 theres still million of checkboxes and scroll bars and buttons that are so tiny that you have to have baby size fingers in order to hit that button...
has anyone used an i phone theme for rhodium and see if it is more "finger friendly" theme even with resistive touch screen?
just like with any defice there will be people defending it.
windows vs apple vs linux.
american vs japanese vs german cars
vegetarians vs everyone else
intel vs amd
all these are made with different purpose in mind.
but the better analogy would be
programming in java and programming in assembly language
yes old school dudes that can pinpoint every component on their favorite motherboard and know what it does would say its the most direct programming language
but its old its hard to learn and takes forever to write something.
and you get java that sacrifices some precision in comands but gets the job done with less resources and headache.
my point is
everyone that keeps saying the capacitive and resistive is not much different is far from reality. they are different even though they are both touch screens.

i went off topic a lil
so the idea was if you have itouch or iphone and touch pro 2
post your experience in this topic so its not allover the board
and if you have a iphone theme installer that would be even better id love to hear how much difference does it make having bigger buttons on he screen

I actually cringe a bit every time someone refers to the iPod Touch as the "itouch". It just doesn't sound right...
Anyway, I have both the TP2 and an iPod Touch (2nd gen). The only difference in terms of the touch screen is that one requires pressure and the other doesn't. It's that simple and it's because of the capacitive vs resistive nature of the screens. I think they both work well enough for me.
Honestly, I'd prefer capacitive because then, the screen won't need a flexing membrane and would actually feel hard like glass. And multi-touch would enable full-speed typing on a landscape soft keyboard.
But I've no issues with the resistive screen on the TP2.

Just my 2 cents.
Nothing compares to the iPod Touch and iPhone screens.
They work flawless ........

Ipod Touch/Iphone has the better screen.
Touch Pro 2 is the better phone.
I had an Iphone.. hated the fact that I couldn't customize it to my liking, so I went to TP2.

Ky772 said:
Ipod Touch/Iphone has the better screen.
Touch Pro 2 is the better phone.
I had an Iphone.. hated the fact that I couldn't customize it to my liking, so I went to TP2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you jailbreak an iPhone, you can customize anything ..........

first of all, its not an "itouch" its an ipod touch. do you hear people calling the other ipods "inano" or "iclassic"?
no, its ipod [SPACE] touch
anyway, i have both. regretfully, i like the ipod touch's functions so much more. however, modding the rhodium files and registry is easier because im more familiar with windows in general.
i also like the ipod touch screen more, and also the webbrowser, but i cant stand to not have a physical keyboard and that was the breaking point for me
i personally dont mind the rhodium screen, though it definitely isnt as finger friendly, and is also annoying to use with webbrowsers at times...
sometimes i just broadcast wifi and use my ipod touch safari browser
but i wouldnt rather have an iphone, i like physical keyboards.. and the rhodium one is really really good haha
rhodium (phone with good work capabilites (word, internet, email)
ipod touch (play device)

As far as resistive screens go, the Rhodium is as good as they get. Comparing it to a capacitive screen, in terms of sensitivity, is obviously not going to favor the Rhodium. However, I have an iPod Touch (1st generation), an iPhone (1st generation), and a Rhodium (obviously), and I can say that I almost prefer the Rhodium's screen, since it's much more precise and I can use my fingers, gloves, or a stylus for input. The iPhone's screen is much more sensitive and does multitouch, both things I would love to have on the Rhodium, but the Rhodium's screen is more practical for my uses and fits my needs better. Plus, WM 6.5 combined with the massive screen size means I rarely have to use the stylus.

For the overall package the Rhodium beats the iphone hands down. I have installed SPB Mobile Shell which expells any requirments for skinny fingers. In fact the Rhodium and mobile shell is an awesome combination.

....
Well not to beat a dead horse but I have a iPhone 3g a iPod touch 1st gen and what at&t calls a Tilt2.
As far as screens go there are none better than the apple devices. They have that safari and the app store. That's the extint of their lead. Which is tremendous. Safari is great and simple just as the all the Apple devices. But they are simple. Meaning even with jailbreak there are things that you still can't customize. And so e things you pay a large price for doing so such as speed and stability.
The Tilt2 Now here's where they have it. The screen itself is beautiful. Works the best ive ever seen on a non apple device. I set them side by side and play the same movie hands down tilt2 screen wins.
I currently switch between my tilt2 and iPhone 3g trying to find the sweet spot on either device.
Welp. I'm spent.
Peace P.

69Pwned said:
If you jailbreak an iPhone, you can customize anything ..........
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Jailbreaking the phone ...yes you can customize everything but it'a B**tch to upgrade the Rom for the purpose of upgrading.
My brother has the phone and everything about the screen is right. ...and all those neat programs scream come over to iphone but the only thing that keeps me here time and time again is the XDA community.

those neat programs scream come over to iphone but the only thing that keeps me here time and time again is the XDA community.
Exactly.
That's what won't allow me to very far from HTC. I have been a at&t fan since the first tilt. This community has been fantastic. Not that the iPhone community has been bad but it's like your fighting with apple every step of the way to make your phone your phone. This is where HTC AND XDA have it all covered. Anytime I meet someone and they say wow you know a lot about this phone I say it's easy just go to XDA. that's where the funny looks begin.
Lol.

xredjokerx said:
first of all, its not an "itouch" its an ipod touch. do you hear people calling the other ipods "inano" or "iclassic"?
no, its ipod [SPACE] touch
anyway, i have both. regretfully, i like the ipod touch's functions so much more. however, modding the rhodium files and registry is easier because im more familiar with windows in general.
i also like the ipod touch screen more, and also the webbrowser, but i cant stand to not have a physical keyboard and that was the breaking point for me
i personally dont mind the rhodium screen, though it definitely isnt as finger friendly, and is also annoying to use with webbrowsers at times...
sometimes i just broadcast wifi and use my ipod touch safari browser
but i wouldnt rather have an iphone, i like physical keyboards.. and the rhodium one is really really good haha
rhodium (phone with good work capabilites (word, internet, email)
ipod touch (play device)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I couldn't agree more, especially with the last statement. I also have an ipod touch (2G) and a rhodium (obviously) and i mostly use the ipod for games, music etc.
But when it comes down to more serious stuff, well I just can't do withouth the TP2
I do like the ipod touch - iphone screen, games and all, but I simply couldn't have it as a primary phone.
Personally I don't have any issue with either type of screen, I find they function very well, and just stated by a friend above, the only difference i spot is that one needs some pressure and the other doesn't.
Oh and I couldn't do without rhodium's hardware keyboard, in my opinion it's the best feature of this phone, and i don't intend to change it before an Leo with a keyboard (touch pro3?) comes around...
That's all from me
By the way (a bit offtopic), xredjokerx how do you broadcast wifi from the Rhodium? I mean what app are you using for that? It'll prolly come up handy for me

The iphone has a better screen, more apps, faster processor and graphics but the pro2 has the backing of Xda-Developers.
I prefer pro2.

DaveTheTytnIIGuy said:
As far as resistive screens go, the Rhodium is as good as they get. Comparing it to a capacitive screen, in terms of sensitivity, is obviously not going to favor the Rhodium. However, I have an iPod Touch (1st generation), an iPhone (1st generation), and a Rhodium (obviously), and I can say that I almost prefer the Rhodium's screen, since it's much more precise and I can use my fingers, gloves, or a stylus for input. <--which is why I prefer resistive screens! The iPhone's screen is much more sensitive and does multitouch, both things I would love to have on the Rhodium, but the Rhodium's screen is more practical for my uses and fits my needs better. Plus, WM 6.5 combined with the massive screen size means I rarely have to use the stylus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I completely agree with this! Let's see an iPhone user wear thick gloves while using their phone!
All I can say is:
Capacitive screen: sensitivity
Resistive screen: practicality
What I really want to see is multitouch support on a resisitive screen. Then I would be really happy!

fuzzysig said:
after using this phone for about 12 days i can say that itouch/iphone requires no adjustment at all.
i havent used itouch before either the first time i held it in my hand it worked flawlessly.
there was not many missed buttons and accidental clicks on the itouch.
capacitive screen is the way to go for finger operation.
but itouch and iphone also are made specifically for finger touch.
so all the buttons are bigger, the scroll bars are bigger.
on the touch pro 2 theres still million of checkboxes and scroll bars and buttons that are so tiny that you have to have baby size fingers in order to hit that button...
has anyone used an i phone theme for rhodium and see if it is more "finger friendly" theme even with resistive touch screen?
just like with any defice there will be people defending it.
windows vs apple vs linux.
american vs japanese vs german cars
vegetarians vs everyone else
intel vs amd
all these are made with different purpose in mind.
but the better analogy would be
programming in java and programming in assembly language
yes old school dudes that can pinpoint every component on their favorite motherboard and know what it does would say its the most direct programming language
but its old its hard to learn and takes forever to write something.
and you get java that sacrifices some precision in comands but gets the job done with less resources and headache.
my point is
everyone that keeps saying the capacitive and resistive is not much different is far from reality. they are different even though they are both touch screens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i want to give one advantage of the resistive screen and is the ability to draw with the stylus on the screen and write on it! (on the pro2 writing a message on the transcriber mode is a breeze, just like on a notebook) the capacitive ones dont have this ability yet! thats why the pro2 have the resistive one, remember is a business pda!!
the problem with the pro screen keyboard is not the screen is the software! i haved the same isues and solved them with the swipe keyboard! (remenber that the pro2 have a real keyboard and the i phone not!!)
try to instal the swipe keyboard! i installed it on my pro 2 and is the best screen keyboard i ever used! better than the i phone one!! you dont have to worry about pressing letters just swipe your finger over them and the word appears!(dont worry about going over the incorrect letter! it know what you mean) search for it here!!

I have owned a g1. I have a Ipod touch and zune hd<----capacitive screens I also have a wing and tp2..
i prefer the resistive screens of my wing & tp2 simply because i can use the screen multiple ways in stead of 1 way..which is your finger tip..it doesnt suprise me that apple would use capacitive so using the thing can be done 1 way..which is finger tip..apple has to controll everything..
i like using my finger nails to text on the screen and also when i where gloves at my job..
to me there is no real difference because i dont touch my screen that lightly that i wouldnt get a response..when i pick up my phone & use it, im not thinking about how soft or hard to press the screen..i just do it as 2nd nature it my screen responds evertime...multitouch isnt really a big deal for me eighter... its def not a deal breaker..i love my tp2 in everyway..

I used to have an iPod Touch and couldn't stand trying to type on the thing. I type much easier on the TP2's touchscreen. The other functions of the touch screen on the iPod, such as browsing and navigating through menus were better though. If someone could just make something to match the Safari browser...

xredjokerx said:
first of all, its not an "itouch" its an ipod touch. do you hear people calling the other ipods "inano" or "iclassic"?
no, its ipod [SPACE] touch
anyway, i have both. regretfully, i like the ipod touch's functions so much more. however, modding the rhodium files and registry is easier because im more familiar with windows in general.
i also like the ipod touch screen more, and also the webbrowser, but i cant stand to not have a physical keyboard and that was the breaking point for me
i personally dont mind the rhodium screen, though it definitely isnt as finger friendly, and is also annoying to use with webbrowsers at times...
sometimes i just broadcast wifi and use my ipod touch safari browser
but i wouldnt rather have an iphone, i like physical keyboards.. and the rhodium one is really really good haha
rhodium (phone with good work capabilites (word, internet, email)
ipod touch (play device)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
same here! EXACTLY... =]