Related
Sorry this is so long but I feel strongly about this.
I too have few posts as anyone can see. I joined in Sep '06 but have been an avid reader of this forum since my company bought me a Siemens SX66 several years ago.
While I have noticed a marked decline in the quality of posts on this site, I have also seen an amazing increase in the quality of products the senior people have put out.
I think this fact coupled with the rising popularity of Windows Mobile and HTC products is inviting more and more people who would be otherwise too scared to try flashing their expensive gear to feel comfortable enough to give it a go.
Personally, I consider this a hobbyist site and as such, while the senior people will only gain experience and become more adept at their hobby, the noobs will continue to be noobs with the same noob questions, just more of them.
If this site is ever to work as an open hobbyist site, then I think it behooves everyone to step back and take a breath and think about what that goal will require.
1) Seniors - as your skills improve, and you work in this hobby more and more, you will inevitably see more and more of the same questions. Have mercy on the noobs. Truly some are lazy leechers others are perhaps "just getting their feet wet." Everyone has to start somewhere and sometimes that "start" begins with what you may think is a dumb question but is considered valid to the user asking it.
2) Noobs - think about your questions before you ask them. Realize that you are getting the benefits of senior people in this hobby and treat them accordingly. They are doing more to give you free "customer service" than the companies that you gave your money to in the first place.
3) Everyone - I see this problem as having many smaller pieces that perhaps can be improved to help create a better environment.
a) The built-in vBulletin search function sucks arse. Someone posted how to search this site using Google. Perhaps removing the built-in search would get people more familiar with a better search tool and perhaps return more relevant entries.
b) Pay to play - If you are a serious hobbyist then paying a subscription fee to gain access to the hard work others have done should be worth it. You can't or won't pay then you are on your own.
c) Private or Tiered forum for more Senior folks. Entry could be by application/invite allowing a senior moderator to evaluate the applicants quality of participation first. This would also force noobs to start contributing to the group versus just leeching.
Lastly, I have seens several posts where it is obvious that English is not their first or even learned language. I have read the wiki for my device and I have had to read parts several times to understand them. I think for many to whom the language might be a barrier to participation a little extra patience should be granted.
This is an absolutely awesome forum. I have been a benefactor of the work others have done and have several devices that are much more usable, enjoyable and longer lived because of this site. It would be a shame for this forum to crumble under the weight of the hostility that has been present the last few months.
Please, let's all find a way to keep this site useful, friendly and enjoyable for all of its participants.
Some good points but I personally don't have any problems with the search as you have got the options to search the forums, narrowing down your options, and the search this thread to really go deeper.
What I have seen on other forums is - like you say in point c - a lockdown of specific groups until you've got a certain number of posts/been around for a while/been approved so that it can be established that you're familiar with the forum and don't just post crap/leech stuff. Maybe something like that could be employed.
But let's face it, the quality of releases lately has brought far more attention to this forum rather than those who would come here because they knew what they were doing.
Just my thoughts.
If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.
I agree with most of what you say.
I have been on this forum for more than 4 years now and it's been the best forum I have ever used to play around with my "toys".
Noobs are noobs and I even ask silly questions sometimes but I think that this site should remain the same.... It's a gold mine for every person like me wanting to play around and get the best out of his toy.
Long life to this forum
I've been on so many forums for so long and all of the ones that are any good have these very same issues. I recently read a post on a forum of another open source project that I absolutely love (Handbrake) and I think the post you can find here by one of their chief developers has some correlation to this current situation.
If you're too lazy to mosie over to the link...the gist of the post is that open source projects are just that. They are open sourced. That doesn't mean one has carte blanche to ask for help on this or that, to ask for this feature or that feature, to whine and complain, to moan and groan, or to trash somebody's work when it doesn't work like you want it to. It means that a usually small but dedicated group of individuals got together and tried to find a solution to a problem that they had. In the case of this post...it's about open source software...but I think you could say the same thing about ROM cooking here. There is enough information here that if you see or try something that doesn't work for you...try to fix it yourself (or as many have stated...search and see if it's already been fixed by someone). But in the end...I don't think you'll ever stamp out noob crap entirely. Think about it...just walk down the street or turn on your television or flip on your radio...how many idiots do you see or hear? Trust me...we are far outnumbered... But maybe...with a little help...we can at least edumacate em a little bit.
richy240 said:
If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
The procedure how to get the info you need:
READ > SEARCH > THINK > POST
Sequence is important in that case!
Same applies to posts made entirely in language other than English > these are useless for vast majority of readers, please consider sending a PM when talking to your nationals.
'nuff said. Long live the XDA-Dev!
I think most of the gripes are about pointless posts eg, "whoohoo!", "cool", "downloading now" that just take up space and make getting to the valuable posts more difficult. Then there are the noob questions that are simple to answer but extremely annoying when repeating many many times. I am a noob to this forum and this phone but not about computers and porgramming. I have also made a donation to jasjamming and wish him the best. My proposal to end some of the madness is to seperate out the type of posts, which seem to be threefold 1. appreciation/useless banter 2. noob questions/simple questions 3. decent and high quality posts that make xda dev a great forum. So one thread about technical stuff that will contain good and useful info and another being the noob questions useless banter. Maybe split the noob questions and appreciation thread and forget about one or the other. This will make the mods life a lot easier and make reading the forum a lot more palatable and organise the threads in a meaningful way. Again sorry to see jasjamming go so soon after joining this forum. Hope he comes back at some stage.
KarhU said:
Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.
Perhaps creating/moving this and other hardcore forums to private/access controlled area would help.
HoFo is part of the trouble but so is Google and search bots which read public forums. That brings a lot of new readers/noobs.
I've been on sites that have both public and private fora, and the Google/non approved members can't get at the private side which helps a lot.
Just so long as I'm a member of the private side.
Personally i think this forum would work better if there were more forums, say inside the hermes mobile 6 one there was one for each rom. Then if users were encouraged to post new topics for different faults the stupid pointless topics could just be ignored and end up pages back or even deleted while the usefull topics would stay near the top with only relavent content inside.
Anyway thats not for me to decide and just to note i hardly ever feel the need to post cos i've always found a fix for my problems by reading. It might take a few mins longer to find an answer than to start a post but it saves you looking stupid.
I fully support the idea of a subscription to the forums. I'm a member of another subscription-based forum, and it leads to more productive posts and queries, better quality of member base, and an intelligent quorum. That site is $9.95 for a lifetime membership, less a ban of course -- and I find that more than fair.
I don't post much either, I just soak up knowledge here. I try not to ask questions unless absolutely necessary, and instead reap the benefits from the great minds at work..
I love the forum and I think we all agree on this point. I am a moderator on several other PDA related sites. I know first hand how hard it can be to try and get the new folks to use the search function and read The Bold Print but I have found with my experience that using post counts to advance members to hidden forums only invites spam and useless posts. I can also say that wading through 80 sum pages of "thank you's" and "questions that where answered in the first post but I just looked for the link to download and didn't read" posts, is long and quite aggravating. Also trying to use the search function for things like finding a fix to an MMS problem is near to imposable. What I have seen here recently that I like is when something is released like a new WM6 build, there could be 2 treads started one for real questions (Advanced) and issues and one for the new folks to ask there new folk questions (Beginners). Not restricting access to the "Advance" tread, just the ability to post. I don't mind helping the new folks a little because I was new once. I can also say that I read information on this site for 4 days before I attempted to flash a new rom to my device. ( was scared to death ) and some of the questions the new folks asked, I also wanted the answer too. Lots of times some senior member would help them with a link or advice and this helped me also. I think if anything you should have to be a member here for say 3 or 4 days before you are allowed to post. Then maybe a week or two before you could post in the "Advanced" threads. This would hopefully send more new folks eager to find the answers to there questions, into the forums using the search and reading the comment of others a little more closely.
Just my thoughts
JD
I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!
Thanks button?
I will now throw my 2 cents in as well. I too have not posted much, but have managed to upgrade the ROM on my Hermes a few times without having to seek "professional help". I think we all appreciate the effrorts of the few that provide the rewards for the many. I used to be a SuperMod on a SonyEricsson modding site (before I found the Windows Mobile joy).
I have seen a "Thanks Button" used quite effectively - I think it is in the newer releases of vBulletin. It cuts a lot of the crap. Also, I would support a "no post for 10 days" and "read only, except by invitation" threads.
If you can express gratitude simply, have to read and learn for 10 days (and you KNOW they won't wait to try the flash) and get to read what the Seniors and Mods are saying and download the fruits of their labors, but cannot interfere, I think that would raise the quality of the experience for everyone. Sorry I went so long - I love XDA and want to see it continue to dominate.
PS: It is funny to see someone with the nick "poopmongrel" lamenting the low quality of the forum participants - ;-) That isn't meant to be mean, just funny!
richy240 said:
Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.
chenga said:
Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know... Probably not. I was really just talking out of my ass. But when someone answers like that, they obviously shouldn't expect an accurate answer. If someone said that to me after answering a question, I wouldn't give them the time of day.
Wasn't everybody a n00b at one time?
It would be a shame to 'close the forum down' to noobs. There's a first for everything. And -yes!- noobs can ask stupid questions, but you could just ignore them. I've read some good suggestions reading the threads complaining about the newbies on this forum. ("thank you button", "noob area" and "a timeslot between downloading/registering" eg.)
Without this forum I'm pretty sure my Hermes would still run on WM5 since there's no real alternative to this forum. The senior members and chefs provide information (at least I) could not find anywhere else. Like many junior members (I guess) I spend the most time reading and not posting. Reading and learning. So getting 'senior' by just posting will not improve the forum quality.
To bad some (a) chef(s) are just so fed up they don't share their work anymore, but I can understand. People should be more gratefull for their hard work. Especially if you do not have the skills to cook a rom yourself!
I think the problem is more than just asking questions, even basic ones. It is the attitude of some users who seem to expect the contributors of the ROMs to support them. As a software developer myself, I've experienced many such types who think that just because they downloaded your software for free, they are entitled to your support. I believe it is this sort of "stupidity" and arrogance that really gets the goat of those who work hard to contribute something.
In this case, the fault isn't merely one of tolerance, it is one of attitude. If a guy comes in and gets free stuff from you, and then turns back and demand you fix their machine, while bad-mouthing you - surely you can see how this will make the whole enterprise un-worthwhile for the contributor. Not only are they not getting any tangible remuneration for their work, they are now having to put up with such arrogance. Now, who in their right mind would want to continue contributing in a community that is unappreciative (though arguably there will always be those who are appreciative).
The key then is to keep the unappreciative out until they learn some respect and appreciation. When they learn that what they're getting is not a right but a privilege, out of the goodwill of the contributors. If they are not happy, they can go elsewhere and not use the product. If they're sincere, then they should make the effort to learn. Regardless of the complaints of how hard it is to use the search function (how hard can it be??). In this case the onus is NOT on the contributors but on the end-user.
I see this kind of scenario happening:-
1. Newbie hears about WM6 and thinks its so cool.
2. Pesters friend for link and ends up here.
3. Get excited at the level of activity and prospect of getting something for free.
4. Get frustrated because they don't know where to start.
5. Post basic questions about which is the best ROM etc.
6. Decides to go with the "best" ROM.
7. Bricks the machine or finds a bug or loses some features.
8. Get frustrated and angry and vents at the ROM chefs (or Olipro.
9. Tries to read site for the first time but too lazy to work through the posts (it does take time but that is expected.)
10. Pester others to help them unbrick their machine.
11. Unbricks machine and starts again with another ROM variant.
12. Cycle repeats itself.
I'm not saying that all newbies are like this. Many lurkers actually read through all the related posts. The problem we're facing has to do with those who want the benefits without having to spend the time reading and researching and learning some general knowledge about the ROM flashing process. To make things worse, these same types usually have attitudes of self-righteous indignation which makes them a pain to tolerate. This is the kind of person you want to keep out of the community. IMO.
Daniel
swtaltima said:
I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to agree here. What ticks me off is the fact that alot of people here come in, flash a ROM without reading or researching then DEMAND a solution...not once...not twice...but sometimes three and four times in a short time span.
I have no right to DEMAND someone to fix something that either (1) I caused; (2) I didn't read enough to see that it was a known issue and flashed anyway; (3) a known issue with an open source software on a DEVELOPER's sight with I am NOT a developer.
What I see the issue to be is ingratitude, sense of entitlement and tender emotions. If you're feelings are going to get hurt then you shouldn't post. The developers here don't owe anybody here a thing. Plain and simple.
Politically correct? No. Do I care? No.
Jim
I Love Xda-developers.com!
Spread The Peace!
request to mods/admins
please,please,please
I GET SICK WHEN I SEE THE GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
the general discussion is full of LG,Samsung,Sony-Ericsson threads and posts about roms,apps,whole bunch of stuff which we don't support because they aren't htc
some guys/girls asked for separated threads for those listed above,but they didn't get them because they aren't htc products
and now they are clearly allowed to post about those devices in general discussion
(because you don't stop them)
so when we look it in technical way...it is spamming,as talking about cars,pc's, estates is
in general or any other thread (except for off topic thread)
PLEASE STOP THIS by removing those threads or by giving them a section,either ways let's keep the forum clean and cool....and easy to use and navigate
the third option is to give us shovels to dig our way out of omnias,i780-s,x-perias and whole bunch of crap
please think about this and let's do something
thanks
faruk
Off-Topic is the Apropos Place for this.
Ultimately though, General is a good place for non-HTC products. Most people stay within their own section.
JimmyMcGee said:
Off-Topic is the Apropos Place for this.
Ultimately though, General is a good place for non-HTC products. Most people stay within their own section.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well we aren't windows mobile developers,at least it's not our name...we aren't support for wm devices,but for htc,as it's said in the welcome screen nad short "site about"
Welcome to xda-developers.com
This site is about certain PDA-phones, made by a firm called HTC in Taiwan. Their makers named them 'Wallaby', 'Himalaya', 'Blue Angel', 'Wizard' and 'TyTN', but almost nobody knows them by those names. The mobile provider O2 sells them under the brand-name 'XDA', and that's what we had in our hands first. They're also known as Qtek, MDA, SX-56, Hermes and many, many other names.
Since we develop software for it, we need information, and nobody seemed eager or ready to give us what we needed. So we 'reverse-engineered' the devices, found a lot of information, and shared it with the world. But as our site grew we realised that lots of ordinary users were also suffering from a lack of support. They started using the xda-developers forum to communicate and before long the forum was as much a user forum as it was a developer forum.
We hope that you will enjoy this site and find it as useful as we do. We encourage you to donate or otherwise support this site. Of course absolutely all proceeds from donations will benefit this community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and samsung is not htc so the place for them is off topic
farukb said:
well we aren't windows mobile developers,at least it's not our name...
and samsung is not htc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh I know. If you look back at all the non-Htc Subforum request threads you will see me telling people no. But They still seem to think General is ok. I don't know what Admin's stand on this is.
JimmyMcGee said:
Oh I know. If you look back at all the non-Htc Subforum request threads you will see me telling people no. But They still seem to think General is ok. I don't know what Admin's stand on this is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that is my point,i also say no, but they keep posting...but one moment i saw general full of non-htc crap and i got really pissed off
hateful child....
just kidding.
i think it's ignorant and somewhat elitist to completely deny non-HTC devices service here. We do have a forum for the XDA atom, which was NOT made by HTC. It was, however, carried by XDA. The world isn't static, and it's ignorant to say that the internet isn't either. We've opened forums for even the least used HTC devices, so we should definitely consider giving non-htc devices their own forums, especially given the number of people who have them.
fzzyrn said:
hateful child....
just kidding.
i think it's ignorant and somewhat elitist to completely deny non-HTC devices service here. We do have a forum for the XDA atom, which was NOT made by HTC. It was, however, carried by XDA. The world isn't static, and it's ignorant to say that the internet isn't either. We've opened forums for even the least used HTC devices, so we should definitely consider giving non-htc devices their own forums, especially given the number of people who have them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
personally,i'd give them their sections,and i wouldn't mind to have omnia,but the general thread thing bugs me...if you know what i mean
well, you know....
to quote some inexplicably famous guy "the best place to find order is in disorder"
fzzyrn said:
well, you know....
to quote some inexplicably famous guy "the best place to find order is in disorder"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
????self-quoter
caught me!
i guess this means that i'm inexplicably famous.
fzzyrn said:
caught me!
i guess this means that i'm inexplicably famous.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...no...
i only saw your signature...doh!
haha i keep trying to get one of the mods to say it so people don't present that reaction to me.
hint hint wink wink
anyone...please....the situation is getting bad really bad
admin opinion:
I have no issues whatsoever with the thread but I agree that off-topic might be a better place. Though this forum is for HTC made devices it doesn't stop us of discussing any other trivial matter as long as it's in the right section (whether that be the best brand of coffee, the speed of our dsl line, the color of my avatar or a different device)
We will not at any moment open forums for non htc made devices on this forum, it would open the floodgates for way too many devices and make this forum too general and unmanageble.
Best regards,
Flar
Flar said:
admin opinion:
I have no issues whatsoever with the thread but I agree that off-topic might be a better place. Though this forum is for HTC made devices it doesn't stop us of discussing any other trivial matter as long as it's in the right section (whether that be the best brand of coffee, the speed of our dsl line, the color of my avatar or a different device)
We will not at any moment open forums for non htc made devices on this forum, it would open the floodgates for way too many devices and make this forum too general and unmanageble.
Best regards,
Flar
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i totally agree with you
i am a htc user so i don't have problems with the forum
but as an admin you could do something to prevent general development or any other thread being full of "off topics"
mods don't clean it up,go now and you will see more non-htc threads than eg. application development threads
and that drives me crazy
quote from my first post
and now they are clearly allowed to post about those devices in general discussion
(because you don't stop them)
so when we look it in technical way...it is spamming,as talking about cars,pc's, estates is
in general or any other thread (except for off topic thread)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
farukb said:
i totally agree with you
i am a htc user so i don't have problems with the forum
but as an admin you could do something to prevent general development or any other thread being full of "off topics"
mods don't clean it up,go now and you will see more non-htc threads than eg. application development threads
and that drives me crazy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately the life of a mod can be overwhelming at times, we can't be everywhere all the time. If you have a problem with a thread and want to bring it to our attention, you could send a PM.
We will evaluate the options and take the action we feel is best.
farukb said:
i totally agree with you
i am a htc user so i don't have problems with the forum
but as an admin you could do something to prevent general development or any other thread being full of "off topics"
mods don't clean it up,go now and you will see more non-htc threads than eg. application development threads
and that drives me crazy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As jimmy says mods do have their own lives and can't be everywhere all the time, it helps if you help point out stuff like this.
Consider the fact that some of our mods spend up to 14 hours per day here, most of that time spent moderating...
Also consider this is vacation season and for a lot of the mods (and users) this time of day is the time you start thinking about going to bed, with mods being on vacation all of us have a hard time coping with all the mod work as it is, a bit of patience will get you a long way.
Best regards,
Flar
Flar said:
As jimmy says mods do have their own lives and can't be everywhere all the time, it helps if you help point out stuff like this.
Consider the fact that some of our mods spend up to 14 hours per day here, most of that time spent moderating...
Also consider this is vacation season and for a lot of the mods (and users) this time of day is the time you start thinking about going to bed, with mods being on vacation all of us have a hard time coping with all the mod work as it is, a bit of patience will get you a long way.
Best regards,
Flar
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes i know that and i fully appreciate it,they are people too
but there is a dozen of mods,not only one
i'm not rushing anyone,just asked everyone to consider it
this thread is almost a month old (7-25-08) so it won't make a difference now or next week or whenever
thanks again for your patience and dealing with some sometimes pissed off guys
i'll help,make your job easier
i'm starting to provide links of all non-htc threads in a new "report non-htc" thread
so someone could just delete them,without searching and reading the whole forum
is it ok with you?
thanks
By delete, you mean move to Off Topic?
Also, if this is the desired plan, should the General forum have a annoucment, and maybe change the description, informing users of this?
Oh and BTW, I have PM'd Meniesys about making a Roll up Sticky for all his guides, he said he is looking into it
Ta
Dave
edit: added poll
i believe that it would be a really great idea if one new market place subforum is added. this would be dedicated to finding genuinly great deals on phones or services that people normally look for here. there are just too many
a friend was about to pay an absurd $950 (locally)for an xperia 2 weeks ago and i managed to save him more than $250 based on a post (that was actully misplaced)
what do you guys think? please voice your opinion. if there is a lot of interest and if our request is reasonable. im sure the administrators wont ignore it
Some threads already discussing this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=469619&highlight=Selling
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=375362&highlight=Selling
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=336538&highlight=Selling
XDA-Developers isn't a market place and doesn't want to be IMO, we are a development forum. If a Marketplace was setup we would start attracting power sellers and scammers - there's no denying it, you cannot trust anyone on the internet . This would mean xda-developers would then have a responsibilty over what was sold on it's site.
Buying and selling of devices on this forum has caused problems before - a senior member on this forum scammed a number of users by selling devices that didn't exist.
Known users selling a second hand device after an upgrade is allowed (for the moment).
Thanks
Dave
i think the $700 he paid is too much. you can get it for even less from UK shops like expansys or handec or ebay even with shipping put into consideration.
the idea has merit but dave is also making a lot of sense .
mabe we can reach middle ground by creating a new "deals" subforum for all devices. a single subforum should not be that hard to moderatea slickdeals.net type forum is extreemly valuable to far too many people espeically new-comers.
oh and btw its now possible to buy decent wm devices for as litte as $160. pda+keyboard+3.5G+520mhz+wifi http://www.expansys.ae/p.aspx?i=147071
are you sure expansys.ae is not a scam site. a similar phone like this would cost about 2-3 times as much
i just added a poll in hope that this will give the admins a better idea what people want.
i just find it a bit unbalnced that there are so many uneeded forums (like accssories subforum for EACH phone that was ever created while something as usuful as this does not get a forum based on the ASSUMPTION that it will be abused.
how about they create a forum for a test period and if it proves to be problamatic the admins remove it.
As posted before
Already are threads regarding this
what i am asking for is a toned down vesion of what what asked before
-im not asking a per device forum.
-not asking forum wtb/wts forum.
im just asking for a single test forum that will help people find good deals on wm all smartphones. the moderators are already handling over 50 subforums. is one extra really a big deal??!!
now if only i could get more people to vote too see how other people feel about this
THE GRIZZ said:
i just find it a bit unbalnced that there are so many uneeded forums (like accssories subforum for EACH phone that was ever created while something as usuful as this does not get a forum based on the ASSUMPTION that it will be abused.
how about they create a forum for a test period and if it proves to be problamatic the admins remove it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be fair, if you look at who it is that's saying "it's been talked about before, and we think that the idea is problematic and we don't really want it to become a marketplace" you might notice one significant fact that i believe you are overlooking. That fact is that we're talking about some of the more significant, long-term contributors to the forum, and people who have actually talked to the site admin before and know the owner's/admin's feelings about the matter. The issue isn't that we can't handle one more sub-forum, or even 10 more for that matter, but rather what that sub-forum will contain. You have not even been a member one month, and I in no means intend to put you down, but believe me when i say that if you spend the next year learning and contributing here on the forum, you will have a much different perspective than you do now.
There are already marketplace forums in existence but it does not belong here. Personally, I do not agree with people creating threads selling their devices on here. Many of us remember the Cuboosh scams that took place a short while ago and many considered him a valued member to this community prior to his shady activities.
In addition, I am undecided whether I agree with people linking their eBay listing here. If you want to promote more attraction to your listing do it elsewhere.
Below is a handy website that does have marketplace deals for many items. If you want to add deals on win-mo devices to their forums feel free too.
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/13-bargain-websites-that-are-cheaper-than-ebay/
Similar Story
A friend of mine is a mod on a site that has fairly heavy trading of sports cards and other collectibles. Admittedly that site is largely focused on that activity, or at least it has become a major focus over time (I'm not a member and have no part in it, so I admit, I know little of it's history).
He's told me a number of times about complications with scammers, and even repeat offenders who return even after being banned numerous times, which has even forced the site to have more moderators to manage scammers than mods for thread problems. To my knowledge (and logic), the site only supports people trading within the United States, which obviously has stricter laws and enforcement on mail scams than there are for international situations. Despite all of their efforts, they still have people trying to rip off others all the time. Given the nature of how easy it is to set up a website that even looks legit, plus crossing international lines in many cases, this site would be inviting the worst kind of activity where people would be spending large amounts on electronics that will never be delivered.
There's already a pretty good standard of people searching around and asking the forum if others have dealt with a specific site/seller before....which seems to usually just get more people suggesting expansys (why oh why can't there be a decent seller in the US?)
270 views and only 12 votes.im quite surprised with the level of interest of this idea.this does not look like it will fly here
are there any other good sites that provide for what im asking?
I've only been a member a couple of weeks (lurked previously) but like mentioned above, I see this forum as a development/support tool, not a marketplace. It's a place people come to learn about a device they've already got, or are getting. I undertand the reasoning behind your suggestion, but there are many, many other sources of purchase information/price comparison sites on the internet. I spent weeks researching prices before deciding on how to buy my Touch HD and to be honest, on that particular point, this site didn't really enter into it. It does now, obviously.
There are many sites in the UK that compare mobile phone prices, whether they be handset only, pay as you go, or monthly contract. I'm surprised there aren't similar sites elsewhere in the world.
I cannot vouch for any of these sites, use at your own risk, etc, etc, but I used them during my search for the best package:
http://www.mobiles.co.uk/
http://www.moneysupermarket.com/MobilePhones/default.aspx
http://www.mobile-phones.co.uk/
http://www.dialaphone.co.uk/compare_phones.html
THE GRIZZ said:
.this does not look like it will fly here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it flew check the new section
No one is allowed to say XDA Developers is resistant to change ever again.
JimmyMcGee said:
No one is allowed to say XDA Developers is resistant to change ever again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can I have an Omnia forum then, please
Dave
DaveShaw said:
Can I have an Omnia forum then, please
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I reject your change and substitute my own!
I apologize that I don't have that many posts to my credit but I refuse to go around the forums adding nonsense to each one when I can just learn and be kinda quiet from reading and understanding. I do have a few posts and have been a member for over a year now and have also sold my AT&T Tilt successfully on here about a yr ago. Now because of the crooked ppl on here that scam others, I am not allowed to do business in the marketplace because I haven't posted enough??? I'm sorry but that's being very stereotypical and really sucks because many jr members that have been here for quite sometime prolly have more couth than some of the ppl that have been here for a while and just solicit the hell outta xda. I'm not trying to start any arguments or anything, but I just think it's unfair and something more should be done to make it fair. Thanks and I hope that this is taken into consideration because I do have another phone I would like to put up for sale on here and I do have a 100% positive sales history on here.
Thats ultimately going to pay you in future. Believe me this rule is good for all of us. Contribute something good to the forums & you will find it not so difficult. Thats how we can make this place a safer haven for pocket pc users. Good Luck.
mreusswig said:
I apologize that I don't have that many posts to my credit but I refuse to go around the forums adding nonsense to each one when I can just learn and be kinda quiet from reading and understanding. I do have a few posts and have been a member for over a year now and have also sold my AT&T Tilt successfully on here about a yr ago. Now because of the crooked ppl on here that scam others, I am not allowed to do business in the marketplace because I haven't posted enough??? I'm sorry but that's being very stereotypical and really sucks because many jr members that have been here for quite sometime prolly have more couth than some of the ppl that have been here for a while and just solicit the hell outta xda. I'm not trying to start any arguments or anything, but I just think it's unfair and something more should be done to make it fair. Thanks and I hope that this is taken into consideration because I do have another phone I would like to put up for sale on here and I do have a 100% positive sales history on here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have a deep read here and you´ll understand why not jr members
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=559465
mreusswig said:
I apologize that I don't have that many posts to my credit but I refuse to go around the forums adding nonsense to each one when I can just learn and be kinda quiet from reading and understanding. I do have a few posts and have been a member for over a year now and have also sold my AT&T Tilt successfully on here about a yr ago. Now because of the crooked ppl on here that scam others, I am not allowed to do business in the marketplace because I haven't posted enough??? I'm sorry but that's being very stereotypical and really sucks because many jr members that have been here for quite sometime prolly have more couth than some of the ppl that have been here for a while and just solicit the hell outta xda. I'm not trying to start any arguments or anything, but I just think it's unfair and something more should be done to make it fair. Thanks and I hope that this is taken into consideration because I do have another phone I would like to put up for sale on here and I do have a 100% positive sales history on here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am glad you were capable of selling your device successfully. You must be an honest person. However, what if you were on the buyer end of the transaction and you did not receive the device? What if you received a big candle in a box opposed to the Tilt?
Personally I feel if you did not record the mailing and the unboxing of the package, emails and private messages, you would be out of luck.
There are many places on the internet to conduct your business other than xda. The Marketplace is for members who use and contribute to the forum.
This is a phone development forum and we have no solid way to know who's legit and who's a scammer who has an account, so we do the best with what we have. And the best way to help protect the users of this site, is to only allow users who have a few contributions and have an account that's been open a while.
Thanks
Dave
I'd like to contribute more, but...
I'd really enjoy contributing more to a forum like this but as I am learning more about these devices, maybe in the future I will be more of a contributor than a student and just searching and trying out the different stuff you guys provide here. Again, I appreciate your responses and all but I also saw a lot of what if's and so on, only meaning one thing. A few bad apples ruined it for the rest of us and that's a shame, but I guess it is in fact reality. Anyways, here's another post towards me being able to do business in the market place lol. How many posts until I am able to sell my phone now? Thanks again.
Its not about certain experiences. Whenever we start a venture we set rules of conduct so we could avoid problems at max. Thats what XDA staff did. Its for all of us. As Redbandana said, imagine being at buyers side you would really not like to have this rule infringed. Moreover even on the side of seller you should avoid dealing with people with low posts, I did that mistake & found myself in barrage of allegations, I sold something to someone & after a week buyer is coming out with allegations rather than proof. I have learnt a lesson from that.
Good Luck contributing to the forum. Cheers.
Hey, you're a senior member in your own right. Just say thanks on the threads you have downloaded from, and provide some feedback...30 posts is nothing.
And true, post count doesn't really say much...I have read much without posting too.
Lumic said:
Hey, you're a senior member in your own right. Just say thanks on the threads you have downloaded from, and provide some feedback...30 posts is nothing.
And true, post count doesn't really say much...I have read much without posting too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My eye is on you, boy! Instead of cluttering might as well help out! I'm checking up members with minimal post count not having a very long membership. If I find too much clutter, away with you. Come on, these rules are there to protect the people in this community, don't encourage sleazy ways to be able to post in the market place. It's not that hard to find a way to help out!
Hey ive just joined this site and i must say its tops. And yes i agree that with a site as this you have to be both safe and fair as there are some shady people out there who would love to ruin the good work put into this site.
glad you like it
netgod said:
Hey ive just joined this site and i must say its tops. And yes i agree that with a site as this you have to be both safe and fair as there are some shady people out there who would love to ruin the good work put into this site.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
have fiun and enjoy or site
Post Count doesn't really tell you much. Quite honestly, I would suggest that if the member is not a know entity among the crowd, just make the sale / purchase via eBay. It's quick, it's simple and it's safer than sending money to somebody that you know absolutely nothing about.
I recently made a purchase from a fellow XDA member with about 60 posts. To be honest I was extremely apprehensive, but I did some digging around and eventualy realised he's a very sweet guy. While that worked for me, it doesn;t necessarily have to work for everyone. If you are in doubt, ask the seller to put it up on eBay and get it from there.
My 2 cents.
FIRST OF ALL, THIS THREAD IS IN NO WAY INTENDED TO BE NEGATIVE TOWARDS XDA!
When I get interested in something and look for a forum on the subject, I look for the BEST forum on the subject. When I became interested in Android phones and looked for a forum, in became obvious to me VERY quickly that XDA was THE superior forum by far; but what 'superior' means is, I think, what I would like this discussion to be about...
It was quickly obvious to me that XDA was the forum where the developers were. This, in itself, made XDA the superior forum, obviously it seemed to me. Having access to developers is certainly a priceless ability to have. Also, AFIK, new developments tend to get posted on XDA before other Android forums (though, I must admit, while I am familiar with some other Android forums, I very rarely visit them, other that by occasional Google search results, and even then, I try to seek out XDA results).
I would certainly NOT say this is the best Android forum for new users who are unwilling to search or use their brain, however new users, even if N00b's, will do fine if they respect the standard protocols.
HOWEVER... I have recently begun to wonder... is this the best Android forum to get help with your questions? If you want to question a dev on XDA about one of his/her apps, then probably yes, but what about more GENERAL questions? Is XDA really more oriented towards higher issues, such as app development?
I personally enjoy helping people with their questions, but I have found difficulty with getting responses to my questions sometimes. I feel certain that there are users on XDA that would KNOW the answer to my question, but of course, I am well aware they have better things to do with their time than answer my questions (which means no disrespect) which the likely never even see.
As I say, I have visited the other Android forums very little. I am wondering if those forums are a better place for these general types of questions? So, I welcome a discussion on anyone's opinion on other Android forums vs XDA...
I moved this here. It is probably a better place for this type of discussion
mark manning said:
I moved this here. It is probably a better place for this type of discussion
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, thanks, but I don't want to create any friction between mods (see my PM).
I will not bite you, however you respond!
Well Mark, I thought it was a very valid and interesting topic for discussion, and since you moved it here I think you agreed with me, but unfortunately, we seem to be the only two people who feel that way?
Are there users here who feel that there are OTHER users here who would be better served on OTHER Android forums? I am in no way attempting to reduce the XDA user base, but as I said, I think this is obviously the ELITE forum (which DOES NOT necessarily mean exclusionary), but to my mind at least, many users here who likely have their minds on higher things than answering relatively simple questions, which might be more welcome on OTHER Android forums. OR... I could be wrong... as I mentioned, I have spent little time on other Android forums, but I have noticed that certain Google searches I make return top results from forums OTHER than XDA (though GENERALLY I find XDA gets the top results).
SO... anyone care to express any opinions on this, pro or con? Now is your change to make your opinion known.
(OH... and if rating my own thread 5 stars is bad form... tough titty said the kitty...)
rsngfrce said:
Well Mark, I thought it was a very valid and interesting topic for discussion, and since you moved it here I think you agreed with me, but unfortunately, we seem to be the only two people who feel that way?
Are there users here who feel that there are OTHER users here who would be better served on OTHER Android forums? I am in no way attempting to reduce the XDA user base, but as I said, I think this is obviously the ELITE forum (which DOES NOT necessarily mean exclusionary), but to my mind at least, many users here who likely have their minds on higher things than answering relatively simple questions, which might be more welcome on OTHER Android forums. OR... I could be wrong... as I mentioned, I have spent little time on other Android forums, but I have noticed that certain Google searches I make return top results from forums OTHER than XDA (though GENERALLY I find XDA gets the top results).
SO... anyone care to express any opinions on this, pro or con? Now is your change to make your opinion known.
(OH... and if rating my own thread 5 stars is bad form... tough titty said the kitty...)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I'm new here myself and I've found it's relatively easy to find information here. The forums seems pretty active. It's a lot better than Bitcointalk that's for sure.. I haven't seen a bigger cesspool of trolls of fud anywhere on the new lol
As I've been here for about 3 and a half years (roughly a year as just a visitor) and am a staff member here, I'm clearly leaning more towards XDA being the best Android forum.
Before I found my way to XDA, I had signed up to a fair few other Android forums (being a mixture of general Android and some more development focused) and for some reason I just didn't stick around. Some of the forums were simply a mess but others weren't too bad. Most of the time, I didn't become active on those forums purely because it didn't feel right, I guess.
In regards to general questions, there's definitely a place for them here. Obviously we are more focused on development than general Android questions but we'll still support those anyway.
If you look through any of the device forums you'll notice that the majority of questions are normally about rooting/unlocking the boot loader of that particular device but there are still a lot of standard questions being asked as well.
With you not getting answers to your questions, it's more likely due to not being in an active enough forum or not being seen by the right people rather than people not answering purely because it's not as technical as other questions might be.
KidCarter93 said:
As I've been here for about 3 and a half years (roughly a year as just a visitor) and am a staff member here, I'm clearly leaning more towards XDA being the best Android forum.
Before I found my way to XDA, I had signed up to a fair few other Android forums (being a mixture of general Android and some more development focused) and for some reason I just didn't stick around. Some of the forums were simply a mess but others weren't too bad. Most of the time, I didn't become active on those forums purely because it didn't feel right, I guess.
In regards to general questions, there's definitely a place for them here. Obviously we are more focused on development than general Android questions but we'll still support those anyway.
If you look through any of the device forums you'll notice that the majority of questions are normally about rooting/unlocking the boot loader of that particular device but there are still a lot of standard questions being asked as well.
With you not getting answers to your questions, it's more likely due to not being in an active enough forum or not being seen by the right people rather than people not answering purely because it's not as technical as other questions might be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I said from the beginning, it was obvious to me very quickly that XDA was far and away the BEST Android forum. That is why I chose it and though I did register on one or two other forums, I have rarely ever visited them (other than, as I mentioned, through Google searches).
For best discussion purposes, I don't think we should focus on my specific issues with getting questions answered (even though they did somewhat provoke this thread). I have a Sprint Galaxy S4, not an unpopular phone or inactive forum, and I feel I am able to express my issues relatively well. However, I finally left that forum with my question, having gotten nowhere (though my issue is VERY unusual) and went to the general Galaxy S4 forum, and received the best help I have received from a user from outside the USA who was totally unfamiliar with Sprint system software, but made general recommendations that I found greatly helpful. However, I am just one person and I digress somewhat...
I would think it would be fair to say that XDA is NOT the best Android forum for users who want to be spoon-fed (unless, perhaps, they limit themselves to N00B friendly threads)... I am personally not as annoyed by these types of people as many are, but I certainly see many here who are (how often do you see, "read the OP")... I was recently following a thread where a new user kept being referred to the OP, even though clearly it WAS NOT answering his question (which was outside of my personal knowledge, though I did try). Perhaps there are better Android forums for these types of people (not referring to the person in the last example) than XDA?
OR... maybe just send them to one of zepplinrox' threads :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=32472429&postcount=15372
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=32475760&postcount=15374
All forums are good since they are all providing free tutorials which help the users .
The only advantage xda has is that the OWNERS do their best to keep the forum up , thing which require a good paid server and monthly payments .. other forum owners simply do not afford paying for the fees each month from the simple reason that once the visitors are getting big in numbers the forum server also do require some server updates . So thanks XDA owners for keeping this forum up !!
alin razvan said:
...The only advantage xda has is that the OWNERS do their best to keep the forum up...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WOW... you're leaving yourself a little wide open with that comment I think...
(No offense intended...)
People seem to forget XDA is not a support forum. It never has been.
As the motto says: "For Developers, By Developers".
the_scotsman said:
People seem to forget XDA is not a support forum. It never has been.
As the motto says: "For Developers, By Developers".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now that's the kind of strong opinion I was looking for! :good: (Whether we choose to agree or disagree...)
the_scotsman said:
People seem to forget XDA is not a support forum. It never has been.
As the motto says: "For Developers, By Developers".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, that was exactly the response I wanted to hear when I started this thread (and from a MOD too!). It is not for me to say whether that is right or wrong (or for anyone else to say, IMO), everyone is entitled to their opinion, that is why I started this thread. But I guess I am interested in what percentage of users here feel that way? I am SURE it is a larger percentage than at other Android forums. However, that may be made somewhat irrelevant by this forum having (I AM ASSUMING) a larger user base than the other Android forums, so when that percentage is removed, there are still more users here interested in supporting others. And, of course, I am not saying this is or is not a support forum. Opinions are what I want! :good:
(TOTALLY IRRELEVANT QUESTION for the_scotsman, haggis muncher from Australia: I go to the Scottish Highland Gathering & Games in Pleasanton California every year and I am mystified as to how the didgeridoo seems to have become a Scottish instrument... know anything about this?)
rsngfrce said:
(TOTALLY IRRELEVANT QUESTION for the_scotsman, haggis muncher from Australia: I go to the Scottish Highland Gathering & Games in Pleasanton California every year and I am mystified as to how the didgeridoo seems to have become a Scottish instrument... know anything about this?)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hah! I have no idea to be honest! Seems to be a sort of link between Scottish bands using didgeridoos for some reason...perhaps because they sound good played together with bagpipes :good: