Develop Bugs

about recent hostilities

Sorry this is so long but I feel strongly about this.
I too have few posts as anyone can see. I joined in Sep '06 but have been an avid reader of this forum since my company bought me a Siemens SX66 several years ago.
While I have noticed a marked decline in the quality of posts on this site, I have also seen an amazing increase in the quality of products the senior people have put out.
I think this fact coupled with the rising popularity of Windows Mobile and HTC products is inviting more and more people who would be otherwise too scared to try flashing their expensive gear to feel comfortable enough to give it a go.
Personally, I consider this a hobbyist site and as such, while the senior people will only gain experience and become more adept at their hobby, the noobs will continue to be noobs with the same noob questions, just more of them.
If this site is ever to work as an open hobbyist site, then I think it behooves everyone to step back and take a breath and think about what that goal will require.
1) Seniors - as your skills improve, and you work in this hobby more and more, you will inevitably see more and more of the same questions. Have mercy on the noobs. Truly some are lazy leechers others are perhaps "just getting their feet wet." Everyone has to start somewhere and sometimes that "start" begins with what you may think is a dumb question but is considered valid to the user asking it.
2) Noobs - think about your questions before you ask them. Realize that you are getting the benefits of senior people in this hobby and treat them accordingly. They are doing more to give you free "customer service" than the companies that you gave your money to in the first place.
3) Everyone - I see this problem as having many smaller pieces that perhaps can be improved to help create a better environment.
a) The built-in vBulletin search function sucks arse. Someone posted how to search this site using Google. Perhaps removing the built-in search would get people more familiar with a better search tool and perhaps return more relevant entries.
b) Pay to play - If you are a serious hobbyist then paying a subscription fee to gain access to the hard work others have done should be worth it. You can't or won't pay then you are on your own.
c) Private or Tiered forum for more Senior folks. Entry could be by application/invite allowing a senior moderator to evaluate the applicants quality of participation first. This would also force noobs to start contributing to the group versus just leeching.
Lastly, I have seens several posts where it is obvious that English is not their first or even learned language. I have read the wiki for my device and I have had to read parts several times to understand them. I think for many to whom the language might be a barrier to participation a little extra patience should be granted.
This is an absolutely awesome forum. I have been a benefactor of the work others have done and have several devices that are much more usable, enjoyable and longer lived because of this site. It would be a shame for this forum to crumble under the weight of the hostility that has been present the last few months.
Please, let's all find a way to keep this site useful, friendly and enjoyable for all of its participants.

Some good points but I personally don't have any problems with the search as you have got the options to search the forums, narrowing down your options, and the search this thread to really go deeper.
What I have seen on other forums is - like you say in point c - a lockdown of specific groups until you've got a certain number of posts/been around for a while/been approved so that it can be established that you're familiar with the forum and don't just post crap/leech stuff. Maybe something like that could be employed.
But let's face it, the quality of releases lately has brought far more attention to this forum rather than those who would come here because they knew what they were doing.
Just my thoughts.

If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.

I agree with most of what you say.
I have been on this forum for more than 4 years now and it's been the best forum I have ever used to play around with my "toys".
Noobs are noobs and I even ask silly questions sometimes but I think that this site should remain the same.... It's a gold mine for every person like me wanting to play around and get the best out of his toy.
Long life to this forum

I've been on so many forums for so long and all of the ones that are any good have these very same issues. I recently read a post on a forum of another open source project that I absolutely love (Handbrake) and I think the post you can find here by one of their chief developers has some correlation to this current situation.
If you're too lazy to mosie over to the link...the gist of the post is that open source projects are just that. They are open sourced. That doesn't mean one has carte blanche to ask for help on this or that, to ask for this feature or that feature, to whine and complain, to moan and groan, or to trash somebody's work when it doesn't work like you want it to. It means that a usually small but dedicated group of individuals got together and tried to find a solution to a problem that they had. In the case of this post...it's about open source software...but I think you could say the same thing about ROM cooking here. There is enough information here that if you see or try something that doesn't work for you...try to fix it yourself (or as many have stated...search and see if it's already been fixed by someone). But in the end...I don't think you'll ever stamp out noob crap entirely. Think about it...just walk down the street or turn on your television or flip on your radio...how many idiots do you see or hear? Trust me...we are far outnumbered... But maybe...with a little help...we can at least edumacate em a little bit.

richy240 said:
If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.
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Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
The procedure how to get the info you need:
READ > SEARCH > THINK > POST
Sequence is important in that case!
Same applies to posts made entirely in language other than English > these are useless for vast majority of readers, please consider sending a PM when talking to your nationals.
'nuff said. Long live the XDA-Dev!

I think most of the gripes are about pointless posts eg, "whoohoo!", "cool", "downloading now" that just take up space and make getting to the valuable posts more difficult. Then there are the noob questions that are simple to answer but extremely annoying when repeating many many times. I am a noob to this forum and this phone but not about computers and porgramming. I have also made a donation to jasjamming and wish him the best. My proposal to end some of the madness is to seperate out the type of posts, which seem to be threefold 1. appreciation/useless banter 2. noob questions/simple questions 3. decent and high quality posts that make xda dev a great forum. So one thread about technical stuff that will contain good and useful info and another being the noob questions useless banter. Maybe split the noob questions and appreciation thread and forget about one or the other. This will make the mods life a lot easier and make reading the forum a lot more palatable and organise the threads in a meaningful way. Again sorry to see jasjamming go so soon after joining this forum. Hope he comes back at some stage.

KarhU said:
Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
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Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.

Perhaps creating/moving this and other hardcore forums to private/access controlled area would help.
HoFo is part of the trouble but so is Google and search bots which read public forums. That brings a lot of new readers/noobs.
I've been on sites that have both public and private fora, and the Google/non approved members can't get at the private side which helps a lot.
Just so long as I'm a member of the private side.

Personally i think this forum would work better if there were more forums, say inside the hermes mobile 6 one there was one for each rom. Then if users were encouraged to post new topics for different faults the stupid pointless topics could just be ignored and end up pages back or even deleted while the usefull topics would stay near the top with only relavent content inside.
Anyway thats not for me to decide and just to note i hardly ever feel the need to post cos i've always found a fix for my problems by reading. It might take a few mins longer to find an answer than to start a post but it saves you looking stupid.

I fully support the idea of a subscription to the forums. I'm a member of another subscription-based forum, and it leads to more productive posts and queries, better quality of member base, and an intelligent quorum. That site is $9.95 for a lifetime membership, less a ban of course -- and I find that more than fair.
I don't post much either, I just soak up knowledge here. I try not to ask questions unless absolutely necessary, and instead reap the benefits from the great minds at work..

I love the forum and I think we all agree on this point. I am a moderator on several other PDA related sites. I know first hand how hard it can be to try and get the new folks to use the search function and read The Bold Print but I have found with my experience that using post counts to advance members to hidden forums only invites spam and useless posts. I can also say that wading through 80 sum pages of "thank you's" and "questions that where answered in the first post but I just looked for the link to download and didn't read" posts, is long and quite aggravating. Also trying to use the search function for things like finding a fix to an MMS problem is near to imposable. What I have seen here recently that I like is when something is released like a new WM6 build, there could be 2 treads started one for real questions (Advanced) and issues and one for the new folks to ask there new folk questions (Beginners). Not restricting access to the "Advance" tread, just the ability to post. I don't mind helping the new folks a little because I was new once. I can also say that I read information on this site for 4 days before I attempted to flash a new rom to my device. ( was scared to death ) and some of the questions the new folks asked, I also wanted the answer too. Lots of times some senior member would help them with a link or advice and this helped me also. I think if anything you should have to be a member here for say 3 or 4 days before you are allowed to post. Then maybe a week or two before you could post in the "Advanced" threads. This would hopefully send more new folks eager to find the answers to there questions, into the forums using the search and reading the comment of others a little more closely.
Just my thoughts
JD

I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!

Thanks button?
I will now throw my 2 cents in as well. I too have not posted much, but have managed to upgrade the ROM on my Hermes a few times without having to seek "professional help". I think we all appreciate the effrorts of the few that provide the rewards for the many. I used to be a SuperMod on a SonyEricsson modding site (before I found the Windows Mobile joy).
I have seen a "Thanks Button" used quite effectively - I think it is in the newer releases of vBulletin. It cuts a lot of the crap. Also, I would support a "no post for 10 days" and "read only, except by invitation" threads.
If you can express gratitude simply, have to read and learn for 10 days (and you KNOW they won't wait to try the flash) and get to read what the Seniors and Mods are saying and download the fruits of their labors, but cannot interfere, I think that would raise the quality of the experience for everyone. Sorry I went so long - I love XDA and want to see it continue to dominate.
PS: It is funny to see someone with the nick "poopmongrel" lamenting the low quality of the forum participants - ;-) That isn't meant to be mean, just funny!

richy240 said:
Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.
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Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.

chenga said:
Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.
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I don't know... Probably not. I was really just talking out of my ass. But when someone answers like that, they obviously shouldn't expect an accurate answer. If someone said that to me after answering a question, I wouldn't give them the time of day.

Wasn't everybody a n00b at one time?
It would be a shame to 'close the forum down' to noobs. There's a first for everything. And -yes!- noobs can ask stupid questions, but you could just ignore them. I've read some good suggestions reading the threads complaining about the newbies on this forum. ("thank you button", "noob area" and "a timeslot between downloading/registering" eg.)
Without this forum I'm pretty sure my Hermes would still run on WM5 since there's no real alternative to this forum. The senior members and chefs provide information (at least I) could not find anywhere else. Like many junior members (I guess) I spend the most time reading and not posting. Reading and learning. So getting 'senior' by just posting will not improve the forum quality.
To bad some (a) chef(s) are just so fed up they don't share their work anymore, but I can understand. People should be more gratefull for their hard work. Especially if you do not have the skills to cook a rom yourself!

I think the problem is more than just asking questions, even basic ones. It is the attitude of some users who seem to expect the contributors of the ROMs to support them. As a software developer myself, I've experienced many such types who think that just because they downloaded your software for free, they are entitled to your support. I believe it is this sort of "stupidity" and arrogance that really gets the goat of those who work hard to contribute something.
In this case, the fault isn't merely one of tolerance, it is one of attitude. If a guy comes in and gets free stuff from you, and then turns back and demand you fix their machine, while bad-mouthing you - surely you can see how this will make the whole enterprise un-worthwhile for the contributor. Not only are they not getting any tangible remuneration for their work, they are now having to put up with such arrogance. Now, who in their right mind would want to continue contributing in a community that is unappreciative (though arguably there will always be those who are appreciative).
The key then is to keep the unappreciative out until they learn some respect and appreciation. When they learn that what they're getting is not a right but a privilege, out of the goodwill of the contributors. If they are not happy, they can go elsewhere and not use the product. If they're sincere, then they should make the effort to learn. Regardless of the complaints of how hard it is to use the search function (how hard can it be??). In this case the onus is NOT on the contributors but on the end-user.
I see this kind of scenario happening:-
1. Newbie hears about WM6 and thinks its so cool.
2. Pesters friend for link and ends up here.
3. Get excited at the level of activity and prospect of getting something for free.
4. Get frustrated because they don't know where to start.
5. Post basic questions about which is the best ROM etc.
6. Decides to go with the "best" ROM.
7. Bricks the machine or finds a bug or loses some features.
8. Get frustrated and angry and vents at the ROM chefs (or Olipro.
9. Tries to read site for the first time but too lazy to work through the posts (it does take time but that is expected.)
10. Pester others to help them unbrick their machine.
11. Unbricks machine and starts again with another ROM variant.
12. Cycle repeats itself.
I'm not saying that all newbies are like this. Many lurkers actually read through all the related posts. The problem we're facing has to do with those who want the benefits without having to spend the time reading and researching and learning some general knowledge about the ROM flashing process. To make things worse, these same types usually have attitudes of self-righteous indignation which makes them a pain to tolerate. This is the kind of person you want to keep out of the community. IMO.
Daniel

swtaltima said:
I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!
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I have to agree here. What ticks me off is the fact that alot of people here come in, flash a ROM without reading or researching then DEMAND a solution...not once...not twice...but sometimes three and four times in a short time span.
I have no right to DEMAND someone to fix something that either (1) I caused; (2) I didn't read enough to see that it was a known issue and flashed anyway; (3) a known issue with an open source software on a DEVELOPER's sight with I am NOT a developer.
What I see the issue to be is ingratitude, sense of entitlement and tender emotions. If you're feelings are going to get hurt then you shouldn't post. The developers here don't owe anybody here a thing. Plain and simple.
Politically correct? No. Do I care? No.
Jim

I Love Xda-developers.com!
Spread The Peace!

Cingular 8525 WM6 Update Article

Just ran across this article on Cingular/ATT approving the 8525 for a WM6 upgrade later this year. I wonder when they will make the formal announcement?
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/03/26/cingulars-treo-750-blackjack-and-8525-get-wm6-treatment/

wnirenberg said:
Just ran across this article on Cingular/ATT approving the 8525 for a WM6 upgrade later this year. I wonder when they will make the formal announcement?
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/03/26/cingulars-treo-750-blackjack-and-8525-get-wm6-treatment/
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Nice second post....posting a month old engadget article, that has already been
Punch "engadget" into the search for this forum, and you'll find 5 threads that discuss this.

Things are going from bad to worse on these forums, the amount of new threads started without any good reason is getting out of hand.
Why people do not spend an hour or so searching and reading before posting and leaving themselves open for ridicule is beyond me.
SEARCH AND READ OR FACE A SHREDDING!

boz said:
Things are going from bad to worse on these forums, the amount of new threads started without any good reason is getting out of hand.
Why people do not spend an hour or so searching and reading before posting and leaving themselves open for ridicule is beyond me.
SEARCH AND READ OR FACE A SHREDDING!
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I think posts like this bright blue one lower the quality of the forum more so than a repeat thread with good intentions. My 2 cents.

evolution_theory said:
I think posts like this bright blue one lower the quality of the forum more so than a repeat thread with good intentions. My 2 cents.
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Good intentions or not it has already been posted what 10 times?

boz said:
Things are going from bad to worse on these forums, the amount of new threads started without any good reason is getting out of hand.
Why people do not spend an hour or so searching and reading before posting and leaving themselves open for ridicule is beyond me.
SEARCH AND READ OR FACE A SHREDDING!
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Click to collapse
For what it is worth, not much, my opinion is I would rather see the same questions asked and answered civilly 20 times than see the flaming that is going on all too much right now.
New users are discovering this site all the time. That is actually a good thing. Many of them don't know how to use the site. Explain it to them, help them become contributing members. Some of them will not ... there will always be people willing to leach off a system but some of them might be our next big contributor.
If you don't want to answer a post that has been asked before, simply ignore it. Others will step in to help ... or not. It is the lack of civility that is causing all of the ruckus around here not the repeated questions.

verge said:
For what it is worth, not much, my opinion is I would rather see the same questions asked and answered civilly 20 times than see the flaming that is going on all too much right now.
New users are discovering this site all the time. That is actually a good thing. Many of them don't know how to use the site. Explain it to them, help them become contributing members. Some of them will not ... there will always be people willing to leach off a system but some of them might be our next big contributor.
If you don't want to answer a post that has been asked before, simply ignore it. Others will step in to help ... or not. It is the lack of civility that is causing all of the ruckus around here not the repeated questions.
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Get a grip mate, if you are new to something you do not jump in with both feet! I do help people when the problem is something that is obscure and is not easy to find, but for christ's sake having the same thread posted time after time gets really annoying when it takes 5 minutes to find the answer. I have personally made cab files available at least 3 times for certain questions, without all the other postings by other people.
Having new threads made for the same question also knocks existing threads down one notch making it harder to find answers when you are looking for something. How you can you justify sticking up for these idiots is beyond me, it makes you look as dumb as them.

"Ohh whaaaa, whaaa, sniff sniff, newbies are ruining our forums with stupid questions and not searching..." Shut up already. You were a newbie too once... you didn't just magically appear on this forum with 100's of posts.

stpete111 said:
"Ohh whaaaa, whaaa, sniff sniff, newbies are ruining our forums with stupid questions and not searching..." Shut up already. You were a newbie too once... you didn't just magically appear on this forum with 100's of posts.
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Yes of course I was a nOOb once,
BUT....... I did not come here asking a lot of dumb ass questions when I started, and pissing people off with the sort of questions a 10 year old kid with some pc ability could find the answers to with one eye shut.

boz said:
Get a grip mate, if you are new to something you do not jump in with both feet! I do help people when the problem is something that is obscure and is not easy to find, but for christ's sake having the same thread posted time after time gets really annoying when it takes 5 minutes to find the answer. I have personally made the cab file available at least 3 times, without all the other postings by other people.
Having new threads made for the same question also knocks existing threads down one notch making it harder to find answers when you are looking for something. How you can you justify sticking up for these idiots is beyond me, it makes you look as dumb as them.
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Well, if asking for civility makes you dumb then count me guilty as charged.
Your argument does not hold much water. You are saying it only takes 5 minutes to find your answer in search. In fact, that is probably about right by my experience.
On the other hand you are angry with them because their post makes you look down an extra line or maybe even click a button to go to the next page to get to the thread you are looking for. That makes you sound like a bit of a hypocrite. You want them to spend 5 minutes searching so you don't have to be put out by clicking on a button to go to the next page? Think about that for a moment.
I am just saying don't flame them because that will not stop new users from asking silly questions. If your intent is to make some other user not ask a stupid question, you are probably wasting your effort. You are not going to affect the next new user that does not read because they will not read your post to know they will get flamed if they ask a stupid question.
If your intent is to get that person to search, simply tell them it is available in search and make them look. They will learn and you will still accomplish your task of teaching them to read without runing off new users who's first experience here otherwise will be to get a flame back with f*** this you so and so read the GD wikki.
We all want this site to grow, that will happen by welcoming new users not scaring them off.

verge said:
Well, if asking for civility makes you dumb then count me guilty as charged.
Your argument does not hold much water. You are saying it only takes 5 minutes to find your answer in search. In fact, that is probably about right by my experience.
On the other hand you are angry with them because their post makes you look down an extra line or maybe even click a button to go to the next page to get to the thread you are looking for. That makes you sound like a bit of a hypocrite. You want them to spend 5 minutes searching so you don't have to be put out by clicking on a button to go to the next page? Think about that for a moment.
I am just saying don't flame them because that will not stop new users from asking silly questions. If your intent is to make some other user not ask a stupid question, you are probably wasting your effort. You are not going to affect the next new user that does not read because they will not read your post to know they will get flamed if they ask a stupid question.
If your intent is to get that person to search, simply tell them it is available in search and make them look. They will learn and you will still accomplish your task of teaching them to read without runing off new users who's first experience here otherwise will be to get a flame back with f*** this you so and so read the GD wikki.
We all want this site to grow, that will happen by welcoming new users not scaring them off.
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My last comment:-
Perhaps we should have a seperate section where all nOObs can post called the nOOb section, then you can help them with their dumb and repetative questions, while the rest of us can get on with the more serious issues.

boz said:
My last comment:-
Perhaps we should have a seperate section where all nOObs can post called the nOOb section, then you can help them with their dumb and repetative questions, while the rest of us can get on with the more serious issues.
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I understand your frustration my friend. I am really a smarta** and flamer at heart I have just seen too much of it here. We spend as much time flaming the nOObs as we do contributing and the site is losing some value as a result. I just don't want to see a good thing die.
Have a good day ... see you around the site.

Forget flaming
hay all of you flaming nerds, who cares if they did not search, this thread still seemed to have attracted users even if it is dumb didn't it!!!!!!
there are more flaming posts on this site than regular posts and dumb questions combined, for every dumb question there are 30 flames.
Oh you poor people your poor little eyes have to read one extra line of words, "oh dear there is an extra word i have to read i'm a-gettin the vapors!!"
You spend way way way more time writing flames than you actaully do skipping the dumb question and moving on. or try something different and instead of being an a-hole actually help the newb find their way around.
by flaming you are showing that you are immeasurably more stupid than the one asking the dimb questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
any way, i wouldn't mind having a cingular rom since:
1. I have cingular on my unlcoked tytn
2. I can get push to talk unlimited for 10 bucks
3. I can care less about having the side button mapped to voice command, i can do that from my headet (plus if you are using voice command to dial a number right there from your handset instead of speed dial or contacts, you are just lazy)

It's amazing how seriously some take these internet forums.
So the guy is new and posted some old information, so what? It's probably happened a thousand times, correct?
Just move on and save the high blood pressure for something that really matters...

This is an absolutely freaking waste of space thread...
For the senior members please dont flame, it only makes it worse, just ignore them and they will go away since their questions dont get answered, might actually force them to read and search...
@the N00bs... READ AND SEARCH before making usless threads.. and if you dont like the rules then go elsewhere... Now when someone tries to search for a cingular WM6 8525 rom they are going to pull up several threads of the same topic.. THIS IS A WASTE OF TIME all because you were to lazy to search...
And in the case of this thread... Do you really think a month old engadget story that involves the hermes (8525) and WM6 would have somehow missed this forum... hmmmm not likely!

A complaint about this section of XDA-DEVS. (Development and Hacking)

quite simply, the the 'development and hacking' section of xda-devs has a cluelessn00b to developer ratio of about 1000-1. I understand that everyone is excited about some of the stuff that goes on in that section, but its bad for several reasons:
firstly, how can any dev communicate when people are continuously rudely demanding information (in broken english or text speek) which is on the first page of a thread or has been communicated several times since then.
secondly, its not safe for the cluelessn00bs... if i was a bit more evil, i could easily make an app to kill to boot loader and pretend that its the latest manila4d or whatever. real devs would probably think about it before running it, clueless noobs would dive right in and we'd have a wave of bricked devices.
i know its hard to fix this kind of issue, and this post is not meant as any disrespect to any mod or admin of xd.com (its clearly disrespect to the cluelessb00ns who cant read the domain name, the forum section nor the first post)
the only suggestions i can personally make are an allow list on threads - managed by the thread owner (and the ability to pass ownership of the first thread would make sense too) or maybe to post in dev+hacking you have to be a senior member (having said that, ive seen some senior members be as clueless and the n00bs)
i beg that some consideration is placed on this, because, in all reality, ive given up on the manila3d thread. theres just no point in me battling the waves of idiocy any longer. the chance of me actually developing? pffft.

It saddens me
I was a bit disappointed hearing this from a marvelous developer such as you are but I believe you are not evil because you have tried your best to bring us the best out of our devices
Please do reconsider...

I hear what you're saying, mate. I lurked around this place for over six months before making my first post, just reading up and learning. People don't want to read anymore...they think that this place is the instant free tech support center.

djboo, I don't agree! Most of the threads in D&H subforum are developer or constructive threads. This is not an easy thing to accomplish, and I think it shows the quality of the forum. You can't disable access to "noobs", developers make their stuff for everyone, not just other developers or experienced people! I'm glad if other people like something I make.

Partially agree...
djboo said:
quite simply, the the 'development and hacking' section of xda-devs has a cluelessn00b to developer ratio of about 1000-1. I understand that everyone is excited about some of the stuff that goes on in that section, but its bad for several reasons:
firstly, how can any dev communicate when people are continuously rudely demanding information (in broken english or text speek) which is on the first page of a thread or has been communicated several times since then.
secondly, its not safe for the cluelessn00bs... if i was a bit more evil, i could easily make an app to kill to boot loader and pretend that its the latest manila4d or whatever. real devs would probably think about it before running it, clueless noobs would dive right in and we'd have a wave of bricked devices.
i know its hard to fix this kind of issue, and this post is not meant as any disrespect to any mod or admin of xd.com (its clearly disrespect to the cluelessb00ns who cant read the domain name, the forum section nor the first post)
the only suggestions i can personally make are an allow list on threads - managed by the thread owner (and the ability to pass ownership of the first thread would make sense too) or maybe to post in dev+hacking you have to be a senior member (having said that, ive seen some senior members be as clueless and the n00bs)
i beg that some consideration is placed on this, because, in all reality, ive given up on the manila3d thread. theres just no point in me battling the waves of idiocy any longer. the chance of me actually developing? pffft.
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I partially second that, although I think that membership seniority based on number of posts isn't the best practice if to implement what you proposed. As I, for example, don't post a lot but read the forum for almost 2 years, and have dev. background (and I guess there a lot of others like that), there are some that post a lot of questions and/or comments that are not that dev. inclined or do not have the knowledge (yet?).
I do see your point here, and me too stopped following the TF3D thread after tons of non development related issues. Maybe putting Dev/Hack as read-only and people would have to ask a mod / admin for posting rights on it? And then giving full access to the Q&A thread / new section? So devs. could enjoy it more, general community could still get the latest (downloading newer version from Dev/Hack, etc.) and get questions answered in an orderly fashion... BUT, what with those nice little apps people write and post here from time to time, that come from someone that is not THAT involved in the community? They'd simply go elsewhere, and I guess this IS the most valuable asset the community have. With all due respects to the "regulars", I think those that pass by once in a while and contribute are
invaluable too. Guess it's the price to pay for innovation, having to sort through the non-sense to find the gems.
In the end, I think the problem here are the filters we use. Maybe we just need to find a better way to organize the data here, so it's easier to follow... What I do hope, is that whatever is done, doesn't change the essence of this great oasis...

I kinda agree with ur second part but i'm sure someone would have told the mods if it was a "dangerous app", rite?

I am a noob
Ok, I understand quite well what you are saying. Being a noob myself, i am learning as much as i can, slowly but I hope surely.
I try to read thoroughfully each thread that I have interest in.
The only regret I have is the search engine. For example, I'm still searching for a thread where it explains how to modify spb mobile shell files to have PI8 as the default calendar. I know the intel is there somewhere, but I'm having a hard time to find the right post/thread.
So maybe one of the possibilities would be to enhance a little the search engine or the way results are shown => enlighten the searched words...
Please reconsider, don't be to hard on the noobs, I think we aren't so bad, some of us want to learn.
And thank you very much for your patience, talent and ideas.

I do agree too that there is too much "I like that.... whats it for?" when a lot of the time the developers do put the information in their posts. BUT..... sometimes these STUPID, RANDOM comments do contribute by putting an idea out there to be expanded on. Sometimes they provide needed feedback and ideas.
If you restrict access to these areas then you may as well shut down the site.
This is a forum and as such there will ALWAYS be those annoying clueless posts but you have to remember that you were once there yourself...
You have to make allowances for those members who DON'T speak english very well as they may be very tech savy but just have difficulty putting their ideas down in English. They may actually give something back..
And thats my 2 cents

hi all
in fact there was a section missing , here , for asking
seems they are doing something very soon , reading the sticky thread
Here
and so the D&H will come back to be free for real dev

djboo perhaps you are a little hasty in this thread and I agree with some of what you say, however, alot of ppl respect everything you and other developers give us immensely! without ppl like yourself alot of us would never use Windows Mobile devices, instead following the masses of other "mind washed" CrApple iphone uses, anyway please don't stop sharing just because a few mindless teenagers didn't get enough Oxygen at birth!

people make their own choices. if you post something which might trigger a brick and someone uses it you can blame him for either trying something without investigating first or for just being plain stupid (depending on the circumstances).
the fact that this section is a target for terrorist idiots action isn't different from any other internet or real forum in the world. people tend to go wherever's warmer and cuddle there.. and try to suck every little ounce of good they can find in that place.
that's why you can find thousands of stupid posts and questions instead having a clear, professional section. not using search, not being able to read rules before posting.. that's international.
as for restricting... I must disagree to the proposal. it would require more work from the dev to find the members he'd like to share this with instead of just posting his work. and being a senior member on this forum means NOTHING considering it depends on the number of posts you have rather on how long you've been around or how much you have contributed to this community.
but what i do suggest is, that a member will have to be at least X months old in this forum to post. this will make people use search and learn before they come up with stupid questions.
cheers.

As a link above has p[pointed out, there is a new forum coming for questions. If you really have a problem with some of this noob questions, PM a mod/report the post.
Also, if you want to post a thread as an announcement, rather than a questions/answers thread, PM a mod to get it locked.
If you don't let new members post, they will never find anything out.
One final thing: you yourself have posted this in an area in which it doesn't belong. It has nothing to do with Development or Hacking, it's about what happens in this forum. As such, I'm going to move the thread to the "About xda-devs" section.

Thread's like this always remind me this post by Kyphur: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
Ta
Dave

i dont beleive personally in censorship of anysort. seriously. im like a big ass hippy and everything.
but some of the people in the developers section of this site have barely developed full sentances let alone developed on an 'xda' phone. the floods of the same people asking the same questions over and over again is just disheartening.
maybe just the ability for the thread owner to delete posts would help. since about post 40 on the manila3d thread, theres been...ooh. 7 maybe 8 relevant posts? the rest have been 'my device wont turn off' which is answered in the first post.
meh. maybe we should just open up a new thread for the real developing. disguise the topic. then we might get some work done.

djboo said:
i dont beleive personally in censorship of anysort. seriously. im like a big ass hippy and everything.
but some of the people in the developers section of this site have barely developed full sentances let alone developed on an 'xda' phone. the floods of the same people asking the same questions over and over again is just disheartening.
maybe just the ability for the thread owner to delete posts would help. since about post 40 on the manila3d thread, theres been...ooh. 7 maybe 8 relevant posts? the rest have been 'my device wont turn off' which is answered in the first post.
meh. maybe we should just open up a new thread for the real developing. disguise the topic. then we might get some work done.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you want closed developing, why not do it via e-mail, or PM?

DaveShaw said:
Thread's like this always remind me this post by Kyphur: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
Ta
Dave
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that man said it better than i ever could.

l3v5y said:
If you want closed developing, why not do it via e-mail, or PM?
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Click to collapse
i dont want closed developing. i want developing. currently the main thread in question is more like doing lines for teacher. once a day, log in, "HTC-CA drivers disable shutdown, TF3D uses those drivers. use manilatoggle to disable TF3D before you power down" x10

djboo said:
i dont beleive personally in censorship of anysort. seriously. im like a big ass hippy and everything.
but some of the people in the developers section of this site have barely developed full sentances let alone developed on an 'xda' phone. the floods of the same people asking the same questions over and over again is just disheartening.
maybe just the ability for the thread owner to delete posts would help. since about post 40 on the manila3d thread, theres been...ooh. 7 maybe 8 relevant posts? the rest have been 'my device wont turn off' which is answered in the first post.
meh. maybe we should just open up a new thread for the real developing. disguise the topic. then we might get some work done.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
djboo... I understand where you are coming from, but I also do not totally agree with your comments. Although I may be a noob, I do have a lot ov experiance in computing. I do not have the time to develop of backwords engineer apps. I wish I did. I would enjoy doing it. I agree with you that the thread owner should be able to delete posts that are off topic, but I think the thread owner should also move a question with an answer to the first page if they see multiple posts. This would make it easier to find some of the common answers. I agree that users should use the search, but it does not always return what you are looking for. I have made a post and been berated for not using the search (when in fact I had). I truly enjoy the work you and the rest of the developers are doing. Without you guys, my phone would be quite boring, but because of the work done on this site, I am quite happy with my phone and how it operates. I have friends that think I am a god because I help them with thier phone, but I would not be able to do half of what I do if it were not for the work done here. I hope you go back to work on Manilla3D. We noobs need the knowledge you provide. As for off topic posts such as the nes on the Manilla3D thread, a lot of them go on due to people endulging these people by answering thier post or flaming them. I have seen senior members do this and all it does is fuel a lot of these guys. Ignore them! Geez, I have had my ligidimate questions ignored, why not ignore the non-ligitimate ones? Anyway, I will get off my soap box. I appreciate everthing all of you developers do and I hope one day I will have the time to contribute to the development community. Take care.

It is possible to set up a "thread owner" or thread based permission system but it would take some work and more importantly a Vbulletin developer to iron out the issues that may come up.
I have tried it on one other site but it was a little difficult. Of course I think a more productive idea is to have developer groups. Vbulletin has a group system built in as of 3.7 and it allows for comments and such. In 3.8 it will allow groups to have their own message boards. With a little help you can set up 3.7 to also have message boards controlled by the owner of the group.

DaveShaw said:
Thread's like this always remind me this post by Kyphur: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
Ta
Dave
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djboo said:
that man said it better than i ever could.
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Yup that's why it's in my signature under XDA Mantra.

Growing animosity in the HD2 forums

Let me start by saying that this is just a moan thread, and I don't ask or expect that anything comes from it other than me getting something off my chest and seeing what others think.
I'm a very regular reader and contributor in the HD2 forum, as I have been for over a year now. I like the fact that it's such a busy forum as this obviously means we have a larger resource pool and get answers to issues a lot quicker than a more sparsely populated forum. There is, however, a down-side to this as well. More people does mean more help, but it also means more idiots.
Unfortunately, there's a growing gang of members in the HD2 forum that seem to thrive on posts such as...
"Search for the answer, *****"
or...
"Are you a total retard?"
Now I know that some people ask what a lot of us feel are dumb questions, and a LOT of people are guilty of posting questions without searching thoroughly first, therefore repeating threads, but it seems to be becoming a sport to deal with them with stronger and stronger animosity.
I personally have been guilty of posting "This is the wrong forum" or "This has been answered - please search", but the recent number of similar posts has made me rethink the situation.
First of all, just insulting someone is point-blank out-of-order, and I usually tend to report such posts and hope the mods agree and deal with the individual in question. So that's that done. Now we're left with the "already answered" posts.
This is all hypothetical, so don't do the following search and tell me I was wrong, okay
Say I searched for "bluetooth android not working" and didn't find anything that suited my situation and decided to open a thread. I start one called "bluetooth android not working" and explain my problem. UserXXX comes along and says "This has been answer like a million times. Use the search function"
Now let's go 2 weeks into the future when someone else has the exact same problem. They type into the search "bluetooth android not working" and they find my thread. "Great!" they think, till they read the thread. It's of no use to them whatsoever. So they start a new thread. Guess what - UserXXX comes along and says "This has been answered a million times! I'm getting sick of telling people to search!!!"
This happens every 2 weeks, with different users having the same problems and not finding a solution, therefore posting a new thread.
Okay. Here I have to say that none of the above users searched well enough - that is a valid point, and cannot be changed. By the time they start a new thread it's too late to simply tell them this.
But now, 6 months down the line, we have 12 threads that are titled "bluetooth android not working", and not one of them has an actual answer in it. By this point, the forum is becoming pretty pointless.
All it would take is for Mr.Genius-at-searching UserXXX to have searched, as he claims is easy to do, find a link and then post whatever he wants, with the link at the end of it...
"Here's a link, you **** tard. Learn to search. I can do it, so I have the right to tell you to do it. Want proof I can search? Here it is...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/noonardfoundananswer.php"
Basically, people giving it "do a search if you want answers" should help out new users in doing so. Do a search and maybe tell them what your search criteria was. Maybe they didn't know what NAND was when they were asking about flashing Android to replace WM6.5. Maybe they misspelt "blootueth". They need help, not an arrogant waste of space that generates just as much garbage post in the forum, but with an added side-dish of anger.
Finally, I know that we shouldn't spoon-feed people, as they will never learn to do things themselves. What I am suggesting is that if someone knows how to do something and they find someone who clearly doesn't, then they should help them, rather than just act like an idiot.
Phew. Rant over
Edit: Incidentally, apologies to those who've pointed out that it's not just the HD2 forums that are like this. I didn't mean to imply that they're the only place it happens. I just can't talk from experience for any of the other forums.

Completely agree.
This is something I try to do now (having flamed and abused in the past ) for the reasons you have stated above.
Take this post for example, I even provided a link.
Why goto the effort of answering a post if you are not going to provide an answer.
As for "don't ask or expect that anything comes from it". I would hope others who don't provide usfull replies read this and take something away from it.
Dave

DaveShaw said:
Completely agree.
This is something I try to do now (having flamed and abused in the past ) for the reasons you have stated above.
Take this post for example, I even provided a link.
Why goto the effort of answering a post if you are not going to provide an answer.
As for "don't ask or expect that anything comes from it". I would hope others who don't provide usfull replies read this and take something away from it.
Dave
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Thanks for the comments Dave. Glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks like this.

I do get abrupt with people but I also help alot, hence why I have 50 thanks.
I really do not mind helping people but what I cant stand is lazyness. Its one thing been new to teh subject and not knowing something and then asking for help but its another to simply not even bother checking a forum stickies or at least doing a simple search before creating a topic that has already been created.
On some occasions its because the subject is a hard one to search and filter out but on allot of occasions you know its simply because they have not bothered and thought they would just create a topic and let other people do work for them, That is what I cant stand.
Although I have stopped been really abrupt I will still not answer these people but instead choose to make sure they are aware that its not on.
Yes you can say that we was all new once and some people need their arse wiping for them but that is absolutely no excuse. When I first joined this forum I did allot of reading and learned allot of stuff in process, some info I didnt need at the time but later helped me with other stuff and resulted in me not needing to clone topics or ask questions that have already been asked and answered.

Completely agree with what the OP is trying to say.

TheATHEiST said:
I do get abrupt with people but I also help alot, hence why I have 50 thanks.
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Are the from people you helped, or from people who liked your quips? (j/k)
TheATHEiST said:
Yes you can say that we was all new once and some people need their arse wiping for them but that is absolutely no excuse. When I first joined this forum I did allot of reading and learned allot of stuff in process, some info I didnt need at the time but later helped me with other stuff and resulted in me not needing to clone topics or ask questions that have already been asked and answered.
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Click to collapse
I think the point John is making, is that the unhelpful replies limit users ability to search. For example, searching for "Help Flashing Evo" will find threads with the answer "Use Search", (recursion ) hence annoying the user and causing them to post instead of carrying on.
Users who don't bother reading/searching are (and probably always will be) a problem, hence svetius's change requiring 10 post to use Development forums; we need to find more efficient ways to help them
Dave

thank you very much!!! i have been thinking about this topic a long by myself, but i didnt dare to mention it with my low post counter.
I got my HD2 only 1 month ago and its my first WM device. I am very good with all technical devices, but it was still very hard for me to find the right answers.
As i just bricked my nokia phone during an update i wanted to make sure to not brick my HD2..
its hard to get all the information, and i was thinking about creating a webpage - which really expalains idiot-proof how everything works.

oida_oida said:
its hard to get all the information, and i was thinking about creating a webpage - which really expalains idiot-proof how everything works.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The guides and the wikis + plethora of resources are already in place especially for establishes devices like the Leo. The only issues is the "newer" crowd is lazy and does not search and hence hundreds of threads asking questions to which answers have already been mentioned sometime somewhere on the forum. That's not the only issue- the problem is that these newer people won't be patient or even post in the correct place.
For eg. I have seen threads about Android development being posted in Win D&H.
We have to live & deal with it, it's a side effect of growth and progress.
JM2C's.

There seems to be a significant amount of animosity of late in all forums - not just HD2. I'm not certain as to why this is, all I do know is that I find unacceptable. As moderators, we spend more time cleaning up flame & troll posts than working on our own community contributions.
My observations:
XDA is about bringing together folks who have similar passions about mobile technology. As such, I expect a certain degree of maturity and professionalism from all members during their "stay" on this forum.
Responses that provide helpful and constructive information as opposed to "use the search", "try Google", "it's broken", "fix it", etc. help guide the thread back to topic. Here's a few examples:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9929554&postcount=4
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10749020&postcount=7
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10097254&postcount=22
There is absolutely no reason to respond in a rude tone, make someone feel stupid, or disrespect a member trying to offer something back to the community ... it is not constructive and serves no purpose. Members are never forced to frequent a thread on this forum and as previously stated, members should choose to move on instead of posting inflammatory comments.
Shortly after the launch of a well advertised mobile device, there is an influx of new members. Most all carriers and device manufacturers send their customers to XDA for technical assistance. Place a call to your carrier technical support department, it won't take long before the support representative instructs you to: "check out XDA, they have tons of information on how to fix that ...".
Most of newcomers who frequent the site are under the misconception that XDA is an extension of their carrier technical support department. This becomes apparent when I read posts complaining about issues with features or demanding an answer to their problem. As most of these newcomers are less technical, they lack the expertise required to assess the problem and determine the correct terminology to use in a search.
The current consumer model is not conducive to holding carrier and device manufacturers accountable. The current marketing paradigm is about convenience and how the one device that "does it all" is here. Most consumers buy into the paradigm and spend little to no time researching before the purchase. Once the device is purchased and fails to meet expectations, they simply go out and purchase something else.
vBulletin Search is horrible and unless one has a PhD in XDA Google Search, the likelihood of finding a meaningful answer in a billion threads is well ... challenging at best.
There are other observations that I have made; but the ones above are IMHO, some of the key issues and why I prefer to take a less aggressive approach when moderating newcomer posts.
Regards,

Those observations are very accurate and sums up the issue well, Hilaireg.

Thanks to all for giving your two cents on this rather important issue. The problems that we currently face are a product of people not having a sense of community. As hilaireg stated, many come here for a "quick fix" simply because the CSR at their company had no idea what to do and decided to direct you here to see if maybe you could fix the issue yourself.
Admittedly, there are search engines that are somewhat better than vB's, but the point that the OP is making is 100% dead on target. By playing "smarta$$" and replying "search, you n00b" instead of providing any meaningful reply will do nothing else than dilute the results of your search. Having said this, people complaining that the search does not work, 8 times out of 10, are expecting the right answer to pop up in the first result from the thread, and will probably give up if by the second or third link they have not found anything. Patience is a virtue, and people looking for knowledge should expect for this to come at the price of a little effort.

I went from a $10 clamshell dumdum phone for 6 years, whambang straght into my Leo. I am over 36 & under 38 years old.
It took me 3 months of fumbling around getting peeved over constant resetting and crashes.
Not once did I bother anyone here with a question that with a bit of hands on do-it-yourself would eventually learn on my own.
However, I had Tmo tech. on speed dial...
I am not new to the forum game though...check my thread "Throttled". lol.
anywho, my phone will remain stock with tweaks, skins, and sweet theme action.
This is an awesome piece of awesome, but NOT for the severely impatient or timid.
Thank you XDA for doing the absolute maximum in making my leo purrrr!!!!
and moan threads are for sissies btw...lol.

@ hilaireg & egzthunder1
I understand and agree to some extent your points but the fact of the matter is that something really needs to be done to halt or slow down the amount of dupe posts or other that are polluting/diluting the forum.
I'm going to be honest I dont really have any problems using vB search and usally find the info I need. PLUS much rather find the info myself because it also makes me learn other stuff in process that I may need in future that I wouldnt usually learn if I had just gone and asked somebody for specific info.
Here are the steps I take to find the relevant info...
Check stickies
Check latest topics
Use search function (topic titles)
Use search function (topic content)
Then if I dont find any info I want I begin to start a new thread and take note of the "similar threads" function before posting. If all else fails I use google.
The problem is that 99% of newbies dont do any of this or very little to look for what they need info/help on, They just rather create a topic and let the info be brought to them, which is fine but majority of questions are already answered in stickies or tuts/guides which are easy to find.
I really think that we need to have a 100 post limit on the dev section this will reduce by allot the amount of spam we get, maybe not specifically for replying to topics but certainly for creating them. And also maybe a FAQ sticky in each Q&A forum with links to most asked ones.

TheATHEiST said:
The problem is that 99% of newbies dont do any of this or very little to look for what they need info/help on, They just rather create a topic and let the info be brought to them, which is fine but majority of questions are already answered in stickies or tuts/guides which are easy to find.
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The newbies aren't the only problem.
*You* yourself recently lit into a newbie in a very uncalled for fashion. With your post and the followups to your post, you helped muddy the waters for finding actual solutions.
There are solutions:
1) the OPs start updating their original posts with solutions to outstanding problems. The search engine is only as good as the queries being put into it, and as more "SEARCH DA TRED NEB3!!!" responses fill the thread, that makes actually finding the solution all the more difficult.
2) Regulars stop flaming the newbies. When I first started posting here I got a number of @ss**** responses to reasonable questions. If regulars behave like that, what type of newbs do you think you're attracting?

Lets not make this a 'he said/she said' or a pointing-fingers thread.
For a solution to the problem at hand, when we see such behavior, we can easily rectify it - as the OP stated - by posting the answer to questions instead of telling the person to search for the answer.
Now this does also bring a 'double-edge' scenario: This may give the n00bs the idea that it is okay to post a question without searching. But this is already happening.
So if we at least cut the amount of posts about the same topic down, there will be less of what bothers the senior members. And we won't have to suggest 'Search the forums for the answer.'
As a possible-soon-to-be-moderator of the Herald forums, I promise to do this myself. Hopefully, we can all agree to do the same as Senior Members of this community. I also don't expect anyone who has less than a hundred posts to do this, but, hopefully a trend will catch on.

apallohadas said:
The newbies aren't the only problem.
*You* yourself recently lit into a newbie in a very uncalled for fashion. With your post and the followups to your post, you helped muddy the waters for finding actual solutions.
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Click to collapse
Hey I didnt say they was the only problem, hence "99%".
If we keep re-iterating the same answers we are just going round in circles. The ONLY way to solve this is to somehow halt/slow them from asking the same repeat questions in first place, not just keep providing the answers every time they decide to be lazy and ask the same question and not just that they also ask them by creating a topic in the wrong places.

It's not just the HD2 forum, it's the same in the Desire one too (and yes, I'm guilty of a bit of flaming but some people just ask EXTREMELY dumb questions and even when you answer continue to ignore you so they deserve it)
Rule 1 of the forum is to search and for those who haven't even done that they deserve it too. But to those who say they've actually tried and not found anything I'll try and be helpful

These people just need to learn the proper way to ask a question. If you want a response from the power-hungry people who reply with insults, you must phrase it properly.
Instead of saying: "How do you get bluetooth working in Android NAND?"
They need to say: "Android on the HD2 SUCKS because bluetooth doesn't work right!"
What you will then see is these jerks flocking to prove the OP wrong, all while answering his question. 90% of the time, it works every time.

But if we do keep reiterating the answers to properly asked questions, that makes the search engine more useful for those that do use it. The answer doesn't get buried in 'you suk n00b' responses.
If a person feels they can't respond without insults, then they should have the self control not to respond right?

IMO the ones with knowledge need self control and should control their temper; and be helping ( luckily for us most are ).
And the n00bs need to know the forum decorum and manners better.
And the minimum posts requirement to post in dev. section is a small but very important step in the right direction, I recall when I signed up on XDA for months I was just reading and posting. And posted only in the Q&A threads or threads related to fashing/ROMs ( when I needed help with that); but these days the people won't have the patience to do that.
Either we need to vomit it out on them or somehow teach them the old school method of search + posting on right threads/forums.

RANT!!!! about unhelpful know-it-alls

Ever notice how these forums are CRAWLING!!!! with the know-it-all put-you-down small-person inferiority-complex type? These are the ones who, even though you used the damn search for three hours before posting a thread, and did not find your answer, they respond to your post with "USE THE SEARCH!!!!!" W T F !!!! They flame the hell out of such members and drive away even some devs because they are just selfish a$$hole know-it-alls. And I LOVE how they will FLAME THE HELL out of anyone who posts a question thread in the dev section claiming it's against the rules, when in fact it's NOT!!! There is no WRITTEN rule here that states that (unlike at PPCGEEKS which DOES have such a written rule), they FLAME people on the claim that these people are violating such a sacred rule, which doesn't actually exist, and yet they are somehow exempt from the explicit written rule of not flaming! If I was a mod, I would seriously devote my time to finding these people and BANNING THEM!!! I've seen people, who have serious, time sensitive problems to solve, and post in more than one forum hoping to get a speedy answer, and some BRILLIANT WIZARD comes along and flames them for CROSS POSTING!!! ARE YOU SERIOUS!? If someone is in desperate need of getting their phone fixed they are not going to be persuaded by some a$$h013 KNOW IT ALL wannabe forum HALL MONITOR bossing them! W!, T!, F!,
You know HOW MANY TIMES I've done a search for a problem, found a thread with someone who has the SAME PROBLEM, but the ONLY RESPONSE listed is someone saying "USE THE SEARCH AND DON'T CLUTTER UP THE FORUM!!!! THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED!!!!" yet for some reason that is the ONLY DAMN THREAD I can find on it!!!! HOW I *LOVE* finding such HELPFUL THREADS!!!
I've read posts by devs who have left or severely LIMITED their work due to people they call "HATERS". Good job. Seriously, yelling at someone who is asking for help is lame and such responses should be deleted and people with such attitudes BANNED!
And how many TIMES do you find someone who posts a question in the DEV section and some EINSTEIN comes along and their ONLY REPLY is "THIS NEEDS TO BE MOVED!! DON'T POST QUESTIONS IN THE DEV SECTION!!!" W T F!!!! These types of people need to be banned for life. Making people afraid to ask questions hinders growth and due to the lack of it my love for searching and using Google has brought to light many more forums which some devs are favoring rather than XDA. Too bad, this place used to be the hang out of the 1337. People shouldn't be flamed for asking questions, and it shouldn't be assumed people aren't using the search. We all know of Google. I doubt there are many posts any more where the OP hasn't first used the search. Even secretaries know how to use Google. Saying "USE THE SEARCH!!!" isn't some stroke of dawning brilliance. This place has become so brutal that I'm sure even AFTER using the search and failing some still won't post their questions.

Let me begin by saying that I'm not attacking you or anyone else personally in this reply. My intention is to illustrate the other side of this argument. You see useless members starting flame wars; I see members protecting other users from potentially bricking their devices, teaching them manners, and upholding the sanctity of our developer forums.
petermg said:
Ever notice how these forums are CRAWLING!!!! with the know-it-all put-you-down small-person inferiority-complex type? These are the ones who, even though you used the damn search for three hours before posting a thread, and did not find your answer, they respond to your post with "USE THE SEARCH!!!!!" W T F !!!!
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I can assure you that the majority of the time, the person in which the flame is directed did not use the search feature. If they did, then common sense would dictate that you give the most amount of information relevant to your problem in order for someone else to help. We are not mind readers. If the majority of the problems that are posted about here could have been answered by the simple use of the search feature, and that person did not use it, well, it gets extraordinarily annoying after a time. In any case, if they did search, but didn't provide that bit of information in their post, then you can't get mad at us for not being mind readers.
They flame the hell out of such members and drive away even some devs because they are just selfish a$$hole know-it-alls. And I LOVE how they will FLAME THE HELL out of anyone who posts a question thread in the dev section claiming it's against the rules, when in fact it's NOT!!! There is no WRITTEN rule here that states that (unlike at PPCGEEKS which DOES have such a written rule), they FLAME people on the claim that these people are violating such a sacred rule, which doesn't actually exist, and yet they are somehow exempt from the explicit written rule of not flaming!
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This is an issue which is always in a bit of flux here. You have to understand that this isn't a support website. This website is dedicated to development. As such, developers on this website come first and foremost. If you or anyone else decide to clutter up the development forums, which are provided as a haven for our developers, with inane posts about simple things that could have been answered with the search feature or should have simply been posted in the proper forum, this too gets very old very quickly. I'm not condoning the flaming, but you have to accept that there is just cause for the disdain on this topic.
If I was a mod, I would seriously devote my time to finding these people and BANNING THEM!!! I've seen people, who have serious, time sensitive problems to solve, and post in more than one forum hoping to get a speedy answer, and some BRILLIANT WIZARD comes along and flames them for CROSS POSTING!!! ARE YOU SERIOUS!? If someone is in desperate need of getting their phone fixed they are not going to be persuaded by some a$$h013 KNOW IT ALL wannabe forum HALL MONITOR bossing them! W!, T!, F!,
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First off, as a mod, tracking down these people should not be your primary concern. There are far more pressing matters to attend to than this select group of people. Besides, pointing out the obvious isn't against the rules. Cross posting, however, is against the rules. The bottom line for the time-sensitive posts is that it is a risk you take by flashing a custom ROM, or doing something the manufacturer didn't intend. It comes back around to my point about us not being a support website. If someone has the spare time to get you an answer, then good for you, but it is never something that anyone should expect here.
You know HOW MANY TIMES I've done a search for a problem, found a thread with someone who has the SAME PROBLEM, but the ONLY RESPONSE listed is someone saying "USE THE SEARCH AND DON'T CLUTTER UP THE FORUM!!!! THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED!!!!" yet for some reason that is the ONLY DAMN THREAD I can find on it!!!! HOW I *LOVE* finding such HELPFUL THREADS!!!
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More likely than not, you simply need to change your search terms. If you aren't able to find your answer by searching, then make a post about it letting us know what exactly you searched for that garnered no results.
This does two things:
1) It narrows down our search criteria to exclude the terms you have already exhausted.
2) It shows us that you didn't come here just to leach an answer from the community, but also put in some effort at troubleshooting your own issue.
I've read posts by devs who have left or severely LIMITED their work due to people they call "HATERS". Good job. Seriously, yelling at someone who is asking for help is lame and such responses should be deleted and people with such attitudes BANNED!
And how many TIMES do you find someone who posts a question in the DEV section and some EINSTEIN comes along and their ONLY REPLY is "THIS NEEDS TO BE MOVED!! DON'T POST QUESTIONS IN THE DEV SECTION!!!" W T F!!!! These types of people need to be banned for life.
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This happens because most of the senior members here, including myself, feel that anyone with half a brain should be able to tell that questions go in the question and answers fora. They are labeled like that for a reason. If you didn't create something developmental, then there isn't a reason to post a thread in the development fora.
Making people afraid to ask questions hinders growth and due to the lack of it my love for searching and using Google has brought to light many more forums which some devs are favoring rather than XDA. Too bad, this place used to be the hang out of the 1337. People shouldn't be flamed for asking questions, and it shouldn't be assumed people aren't using the search. We all know of Google. I doubt there are many posts any more where the OP hasn't first used the search. Even secretaries know how to use Google. Saying "USE THE SEARCH!!!" isn't some stroke of dawning brilliance. This place has become so brutal that I'm sure even AFTER using the search and failing some still won't post their questions.
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Just because people know about Google doesn't mean they've actually used it. It is far more rare to come across a user asking a question who has done a search first than not.
The problem isn't so much about people asking questions. The problem lies a bit deeper now. Things used to be different here, indeed. I've personally been a registered XDA user for 6 years now. Things were more development focused back in the old WM days. It was normally only those of us who were looking for ways to get more out of our Pocket PCs that would frequent the forum. This mentality you are describing wasn't any different then from what it is today. The only difference is that now that Android has flooded the market that Apple made popular, we have a different set of users who are looking for a different type of development.
When I was a noob here, the flaming for not searching and doing the work myself was what eventually taught me how to find my own answers and not rely on others to support my device. I learned how to search, compose a proper post, and ask for help in a way that showed I wasn't trying to be a leach but had legitimately tried to solve my issue and failed.
The other big difference at the time was the age difference between WM users and the current generation of Android and iOS users. Back then, WM users were generally in their 20s or older. Most of the people using it, such as myself, needed it as a professional portable workstation. We had a more mature mentality towards our precious piece of technology. There were few times where you could get one of these Pocket PCs for under $400, so we valued what we had spent our money on, since insurance claims on them were all but nonexistent at the time. If we did something wrong, then there was a good chance that our expensive gadget would be just another paperweight. Since a fair portion of us needed these devices for a daily job, there was more caution thrown towards modding, flashing, or installing software.
Now, our devices are known as smartphones, and our users are mostly teenagers to whom their device was given by their parents. They don't have the same sense of worth towards their devices that used to be present since they didn't pay anything for it, or paid very little.
These users aren't taught that respect needs to be show if you want to receive it. I know it may seem as though they didn't say anything warranting a flame war, but by not showing other members of this community who donate their time to it enough respect to out line their problem and how they tried to solve it, all it sounds like to us is, "Here, I broke this. You need to fix it for me for free."
I hope that this has shown you the other side of the coin.

There is a difference between other forums and this one. They are user forums and this one is not. It is a developers forum. Made by and for developers.

im also newbie,still learning to theme my rom,applying and make new mod from the tutorial that posted here in developement forum,i read all threads and posts to understand how to make it on my phone,not just asking for help,if you say you are tired reading all threads and posts to find an answer,what about the devs??are'nt they tired of answering same question over and over??say something with you mind open,just an advice
Sent from my LT18i

Some good points made on each side, but the fact is that this is NOT the regular use forum, it's for the "pro" people, so I think it's understandable when they get annoyed with some of the users asking seemingly simple questions.

zelendel said:
There is a difference between other forums and this one. They are user forums and this one is not. It is a developers forum. Made by and for developers.
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xda is for developers and users.

Android78822 said:
xda is for developers and users.
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No, it isn't. That's where the confusion comes from. This is a developer forum that we allow non-developers to be a part of. The catch is that you have to actually participate and be a part of the community to get any level of respect here. We don't appreciate people coming here just to turn us into a support forum. If you want tech support, call your carrier. If you want to be a part of a community, come here.

If you are in urgent need of help I would recommend trying IRC first, it's usually a lot easier to get real time feedback from people on there compared to a forum.
Some of the flaming may be unnecessary, but you have to realize that a large amount of time goes into a lot of the ROMs, kernels, etc. If you're nice enough to share it then you deserve to have a chance for everyone to see it. To have everyone bury their posts just so they can ask a question is inconsiderate, to say the least. Plus the clutter makes it harder for those looking for something to find it.
When I first started lurking here I only needed to see one question in the dev section for me to figure out that was the last place to post one. Sure I was cautious the first time or two I posted there, but you better believe I made sure it fit in with the other posts there before I posted it.

cajunflavoredbob said:
No, it isn't. That's where the confusion comes from. This is a developer forum that we allow non-developers to be a part of. The catch is that you have to actually participate and be a part of the community to get any level of respect here. We don't appreciate people coming here just to turn us into a support forum. If you want tech support, call your carrier. If you want to be a part of a community, come here.
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You. Are. Awesome.
Always a level-headed, thorough, well-thought-out response. Keep it up.

arrrghhh said:
You. Are. Awesome.
Always a level-headed, thorough, well-thought-out response. Keep it up.
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Nah he's a scumbag really...
He just pops in here every now and then to make up for trolling elsewhere...
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.......

conantroutman said:
Nah he's a scumbag really...
He just pops in here every now and then to make up for trolling elsewhere...
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.......
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Save your trolling for OT. I'll meet you there later. Lol

I've changed my mind about this very subject so many times that I've lost count. I used to be in the "Search the forum." camp, but then decided that I could be more constructive - "Search the forum and see if you can find any help there. I just used this search term - xxxxxxxxxxxxx - and came up with some answers for you. See if any of them help."
From what I've seen most of the people that are blunt about searching one day are friendly and offer good, helpful advice the next day. Yes, of course there are a few trolls that seem to take pleasure in baiting confrontation, but that's unfortunately the nature of large groups of people. There's always 1!
This community has, by and large, been the most informative website I have ever had the pleasure to take part in. My only advice with regards to this matter would be to learn to take bad attitudes with a pinch of salt, or let the mods know if someone's gone too far. I'm certainly not shy about bringing things to the attention of mods, and I've only been trolled by one of them
Basically, if you see something you don't like then don't rant. Teach by example. It makes the whole place better for us all.

Archer said:
I've changed my mind about this very subject so many times that I've lost count. I used to be in the "Search the forum." camp, but then decided that I could be more constructive - "Search the forum and see if you can find any help there. I just used this search term - xxxxxxxxxxxxx - and came up with some answers for you. See if any of them help."
From what I've seen most of the people that are blunt about searching one day are friendly and offer good, helpful advice the next day. Yes, of course there are a few trolls that seem to take pleasure in baiting confrontation, but that's unfortunately the nature of large groups of people. There's always 1!
This community has, by and large, been the most informative website I have ever had the pleasure to take part in. My only advice with regards to this matter would be to learn to take bad attitudes with a pinch of salt, or let the mods know if someone's gone too far. I'm certainly not shy about bringing things to the attention of mods, and I've only been trolled by one of them
Basically, if you see something you don't like then don't rant. Teach by example. It makes the whole place better for us all.
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I've kind of grown out of the "USE THE SEARCH FEATURE" responses as well. It took me several years, but now I ask questions designed to teach them how they should be posting questions.
When I see a post like "i brookeded my fone. needz help! whAT SHouLd i do?!!!", it generates a response from me along the lines of, "Ok, what did you do to try and fix it yourself? Have you searched for your problem? Did you read the stickies? Did you read any relevant FAQs for that mod/hack/ROM/app?"
It's a bit condescending, but not as insulting as just spamming SEARCH FIRST all the time. This way, they feel a little bit insulted, but at least they know why.

cajunflavoredbob said:
I've kind of grown out of the "USE THE SEARCH FEATURE" responses as well. It took me several years, but now I ask questions designed to teach them how they should be posting questions.
When I see a post like "i brookeded my fone. needz help! whAT SHouLd i do?!!!", it generates a response from me along the lines of, "Ok, what did you do to try and fix it yourself? Have you searched for your problem? Did you read the stickies? Did you read any relevant FAQs for that mod/hack/ROM/app?"
It's a bit condescending, but not as insulting as just spamming SEARCH FIRST all the time. This way, they feel a little bit insulted, but at least they know why.
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Exactly - could not agree more (especially since you were pretty much agreeing with me ) I find myself now showing a newb (not noob) how it should be done, whilst at the same time letting the "SEARCH NOOB" shouters know how they should deal with it.
Given time though, I think most of us realise the futility of shouting at people that demand support. There's one guy in particular I can think of (obviously won't say who), who came on here shouting NOOB and telling people to search and ranting at everything that was even vaguely rantable at, and it was clear that he just enjoyed it. Now, though, after a couple of years on here he's one of the most helpful members I know. He has tons of patience and tons of thanks to show for it. I see him around now and then and we usually say hello, and I have to admit that it's nice to think that maybe showing him how to deal with a newb quietly and calmly may have had some effect. Maybe not, but either way I'm glad he got there eventually.
Either people stay and eventually become more chilled, or they leave in anger or get booted for trolling/swearing/abusing etc..
I have faith in the majority.

Archer said:
Exactly - could not agree more (especially since you were pretty much agreeing with me ) I find myself now showing a newb (not noob) how it should be done, whilst at the same time letting the "SEARCH NOOB" shouters know how they should deal with it.
Given time though, I think most of us realise the futility of shouting at people that demand support. There's one guy in particular I can think of (obviously won't say who), who came on here shouting NOOB and telling people to search and ranting at everything that was even vaguely rantable at, and it was clear that he just enjoyed it. Now, though, after a couple of years on here he's one of the most helpful members I know. He has tons of patience and tons of thanks to show for it. I see him around now and then and we usually say hello, and I have to admit that it's nice to think that maybe showing him how to deal with a newb quietly and calmly may have had some effect. Maybe not, but either way I'm glad he got there eventually.
Either people stay and eventually become more chilled, or they leave in anger or get booted for trolling/swearing/abusing etc..
I have faith in the majority.
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Heheh, you're referring to me, aren't you?
Yea, you just have to find that balance between being insulting and helpful. That way they are less likely to make the same mistake again. It's never a good idea to just hand over the information right away, since that teaches them absolutely nothing. It's like that old proverb saying that you can give a man a fish and feed him for a day, but if you teach him to fish, you can feed him for life.

cajunflavoredbob said:
Heheh, you're referring to me, aren't you?
Yea, you just have to find that balance between being insulting and helpful. That way they are less likely to make the same mistake again. It's never a good idea to just hand over the information right away, since that teaches them absolutely nothing. It's like that old proverb saying that you can give a man a fish and feed him for a day, but if you teach him to fish, you can feed him for life.
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Hahaha nah mate - I wasn't referring to you. You're still a troll

This sort of thing happens all the time in automotive forums, oldsters get super cranky from answering the same questions over and over and new people get mad because they're told to use search literally every time they have a question valid or not. You're probably going to find that this is an issue no matter where you go on the internet.
The only time I've seen this mostly resolved is on a forum where moderation of user behavior is swift, brutal, and pretty impartial, and registration to the forum costs $10. Not likely to work on a forum such as this.

.
To compliment and support what cajunflavoredbob mentioned, please read my signature, you may now understand the nature of XDA:
This is and always will be a site for developers, pure and simple. Without them we are nothing, without them there would be no reason for XDA Developers to exist; we should never ever forget that. Without them this place would not be called XDA-Developers but something else, e.g Mobile Phone User Support Services For Ungrateful Nerds.
XDA is about developing and is for developers. Any user that recognises that will gain the most benefit from this site
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Android78822 said:
xda is for developers and users.
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cajunflavoredbob said:
No, it isn't. That's where the confusion comes from. This is a developer forum that we allow non-developers to be a part of. The catch is that you have to actually participate and be a part of the community to get any level of respect here. We don't appreciate people coming here just to turn us into a support forum. If you want tech support, call your carrier. If you want to be a part of a community, come here.
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Jesus! A quick search would have brought up like 20+ threads just like this one. All of them with the same answer. You could have googled Asshats with tudes and XDA would have been your first answer. Read the rules! Post only when posted at! Never wear white after labor day, and some other stuff that is off topic!!!!

Here is something I don't understand. Yes this site might be for developers, but without users developers would server no purpose so that claim that this isn't for both users and developers seems counter productive. I myself haven't gotten around to making 10+ posts just to justify my rooting knowledge.
Yet the fact remains that without users the developers wouldn't really need to even have a website like this or it would be private which it's clearly not. How many bigger developers actually live off of their user donations?
Just my two cents, but I disagree.