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Attention NOOBS. I'm becoming less patient with your posts that include whining and redundancy. This forum isn't here to provide you with all the comforts of your carrier. These roms and installing them is for people who are advanced users of WM. If you need your device for work or if you're new to PocketPCs this isn't the place for you. These roms aren't for you so please stick to your carriers’ rom.
The chefs of these roms aren't here to help you setup your device and to solve all of your issues. If you have issues read, search and fix them. The research is part of the fun...finding fixes is part of the fun. Finding new ways to configure your device and setups is FUN. By asking first you're not participating in the best part of the forum. Questions like...my keyboard is wrong and it doesn't look different or I can't connect to the internet are redundant. Those questions have been asked, answered and fixed OVER-AND-OVER AGAIN....WHY KEEP ASKING?
I'm not anti-noob. I was a noob once and I am still a noob in many ways. I also know that there are some good noobs in the forum. But I'm tired of taking the time to read the threads for critical information and coming across posts for how to install a new theme or where did the backlight on my keyboard go. That's where your user manual or the HTC website comes in. For Cingular people you have a great resource over @ the Cingular forums.
This is a community of like minded technical individuals. This is not HTC tech support or your carriers support. No one here owes you ANYTHING. You install a rom it's on you. If you can't take the responsibility then don't install the rom. It's pretty simple really.
I just had to get that off my chest. I'm sick and cranky but that only played a small role.
Again TIP YOUR CHEF!!!!! and donate to XDA. To all of you that make this a interactive vibrant technical-minded environment THANK YOU!
When I posted this the first time I was trying to prevent what has eventually happened. We've lost one of our genius rom Chefs. So...thanks guys!
Admins....
As for fixing the "noob" issue...I think there is one pretty good solution.
I think the only way to fix such an issue is to either restrict new users from they'll use that period of time to read. Because if they choose to install a rom and they know they can't post a question they'll probably be more apt to read.
I agree with Xultar that a minimum registration period before posting should be enforced, and any BLATANT stupidity should reset the period.
This seems like the best idea. Someone mentioned having a sub forum only accessible by experienced members. Denying read access to the masses however would make this a very exclusive club, which I do feel strongly about.
I am still a relative noob, but found this site and was reading away well before getting my first WM device. It was partly this site that gave me the confidence to try such a device instead of a dumb phone. If I had looked around and seen only the stupid questions, with an inaccessible sub forum that I could not read, then I would have moved on elsewhere and not discovered all the things I have.
I guess it all depends what the key developers here want to achieve. If it is an exclusive club where everyone is a technical whiz then OK I am screwed and will miss this forum. That decision is however entirely theirs to make and no one has the right to tell them what they should or should not do or judge them in any way.
Along with many who do try to avoid asking stupid questions and do try and RTFW first, I can only hope that they choose to try and spread the word so to speak - don't mean to sound all preachy and religious - and that a way can be found to reduce the hassle they get from morons.
I remember seeing one of Sleuth's posts - he said he took no responsibility if anyone chose to use that bit of software and if you bricked your phone it was on you and hard luck. He also added that if that did happen, he would however do his best to help fix any issues. Exactly what I wanted - I knew the risk and choice was mine, but knowing that someone with a lot of knowledge would try and help was very reassuring.
Anyway, thanks to all the deveopers who have helped with the Hermes forum, and to anyone who wants to flame me, just please keep it civil. (There has been rather too much rudeness recently, as tensions seem to have increased... - just my view)
I agree, a "seniors only" forum section would be advantagous but would repell alot of potential members.
I made my guides to help the newbies along the way but i have always said to read the threads and RTFM in order to increase thier knowledge of the various things we do here. Yet still I get very STUPID questions which have been addressed in the guides, why should I write them if people arent going to read them correctly!?!? (rant over hehe) Thankfully on the whole I havent had so many annoyances as jass and the rest have.
I figure this is like a game of lemmings, theres only so many levels you can go through guiding them on the way before you lose your rag and blow them all to hell!!
If people have simply signed up to get thier chosen version of WM6 then piss off thats exactly NOT what we want! ROM chefs dont spend the time to cook these ROMs for people to just download then come back whining when they dont fucntion as they want.
As I've frequented my fair amount of forums, I'd suggest for specific ROM Downloads, or Radio Downloads, Cab files, that users there me be a hidden link and set for users to see if they have a certain amount of posts. Good to that is that you will see Quickly who is simply spamming to get access. Just a thought... I've been able to SuperCid, and Sim Unlock, as well as upgrade to WM6, just by reading several posts and the WIKI. It's really not that difficult.
Even me would not be able to access with some of these restrictions, but that is alright as something like this is very much needed.
ROMS = 50 posts, or active for 8- 12 months
Radio = 40 posts, or active 6 months
CAB files = 25 posts or active 3 months, etc...
Thoughts???
mrvanx said:
If people have simply signed up to get thier chosen version of WM6 then piss off thats exactly NOT what we want! ROM chefs dont spend the time to cook these ROMs for people to just download then come back whining when they dont fucntion as they want.
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Click to collapse
I agree - I joined up before you could even SIM unlock without going through EMEI check. I joined up so as to learn about my device and then help spread the knowledge if I could.
It will be harder to sift out those hit and run artists however. Perhaps say a three month delay before you can download or post? removes the quick fix junkies hopefully - although unfortunately many will now be registered already. Perhaps if the post count is under an arbitrary number then the posting delay would come in, but you could PM a moderator to show you had not asked silly questions and get it revoked? Maybe too much work for mods though.
Agreed, I dont think I have been guilty of blatant stupidity, I have bricked my phone once but enough reading around the various forums and its fixed and fine.
If you arent capable of learning for yourself, you have no real business being here, you certainly shouldnt be flashing a £2-300 phone then complaining when it goes tits up.
PhatFarms approach sounds workable though.
Sad to see Jasjamming go, that kind of altruism is pretty rare these days......
chrisjasper said:
Agreed, I dont think I have been guilty of blatant stupidity, I have bricked my phone once but enough reading around the various forums and its fixed and fine.
If you arent capable of learning for yourself, you have no real business being here, you certainly shouldnt be flashing a £2-300 phone then complaining when it goes tits up.
PhatFarms approach sounds workable though.
Sad to see Jasjamming go, that kind of altruism is pretty rare these days......
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Click to collapse
hey guys,
im not going, just laying low for a while till things settle down and become a developer forum again, or atleast not a howard forum.
Good luck sport, maybe now you will have more free time and your wife wont be taking your credit cards away......
Great ideas.
Let's just add taking money for reading the posts (and sending money to the posters) and we will kill this forum forever.
The whole Internet idea, if you like it or not, is to share information freely.
There will always be the lamers that will ask their stupid question, and there always be the people that will share their great work with the others.
Anyone (from either side) can join or leave anytime he like.
Jasjamming (The "black guy") did a great job, I relay mean it.
But his leave would not end the great work of this forum.
l hope he will change his mind and decide to continue his work with the others even that some lamers are here.
I think a senior forum would work.
Sure all the ROMs would leak out onto bittorrent etc, but surely that doesn't actually matter? It would be to stop the n00bs moaning about dead phones. if they don't have the rights, they can't post regardless of if they have the ROM or not.
jasjamming said:
hey guys,
im not going, just laying low for a while till things settle down and become a developer forum again, or atleast not a howard forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At least you can sleep now?
Jas... do you want me to remove your ROM from my mirror? I noticed you removed your own download link, but I don't know where you stand on mirrors?
It's sad to see ppl who don't want to learn join and ask stupid question.
I have joined since 2005 but never post once
Yes! this is my first post!! haha
I want to thank jasjamming for his hard work... and all the ROM chef.
One of the things that has caused an increase in NooB's (in my opionion) is that knowledge of these roms (as well as links) get posted on to howard forums and those same users come rushing in to download the files without paying attention to the fact that this isn't the HTC customer support forum. I agree with what JJ ended up doing only cause I am STILL reading through that forum and have only spotted about 4-6 actual issues the rest are repeats or dumb comments (up to page 42).
Personaly I am far from a developer, but taking the time reading through threads has given me a lot of knowledge about what my device can do.
I like the ideas of having some kind of feature that NooB's can join, and even download, but at their own risk, and after a waiting period can then post etc. even if you make it just for the WM6 forums until a branded official rom is released in q3
Im wondering what the mods opinion is on this issue??
I think probably the best thing to do is as phatfarm suggested, a postcount limit which you must have before you can download an attachment? Thing is the wiki does have the links to the various ROMs so thats the way you get around it.
mrvanx said:
Im wondering what the mods opinion is on this issue??
I think probably the best thing to do is as phatfarm suggested, a postcount limit which you must have before you can download an attachment? Thing is the wiki does have the links to the various ROMs so thats the way you get around it.
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That in conjunction with a 30 day waiting period would work for Noobs.
I totally Agree
I totally agree with you guys. It's sad to see how things have turned out lately. I have been to this site off and on for a few years now (just reading actually), and loved everything that I read. Now in a sense I can be called a noob (I joined in 2/07), but technically I am not. I am coming from the symbian os (Nokia N93) and the minute that I got my windows mobile phone (February of this year - 8525), I joined this site. I read and read and read, never really felt the need to post, because you can find everything you need either by the wiki or just plain clicking on the search button, but I guess most people don't see that button
Anyway, I agree that something should be done to stop what has been happening in the last month, but I don't think that saying we should have a senior member forum only or you have to have this amount of post to get it, will work. Because if you look at JJ's, Kyphurs, LVSW threads, you will see that there were people who had a lot post and even a few junior and senior members who complained and questioned. There are a lot of people who come on and actually read and never post, because they search and figure things out without having to question these great chefs. I personally don't want to have to come on here and began to post everyday to get to junior and/or senior status. I never once complained since being here and believe me, since the release of these WM6 roms (Kyphur's first), I have been flashing 2-3 times per week. So much, my wife has gotten sick of it.
I think, you should continue to let people join and continue to flash, with the understanding that, they are doing everything at their own risk. What I think should be done is, people who have been a member for 3-6 months or less would have to have there post/threads approved by the mod's before it could be posted. Sought of like on myspace when you post your initial pic, they tell you that it is pending approval and that it if approved, it should be posted within 24 hours. They even have a function where you can have it set on your page, that if a person leaves you a comment, it will not post until it has been approved by you. You can either delete or post it. That's how I have my page set up. It would be a lot more work on the mod's, (I don't even know if that is capable), but it would cut back a lot of stress on all of the chefs and even the people who really sit and read/search and get the answers that they need.
What do yo think?
True, this would be much more easier to contain if M$ didn't shut down the ability to put roms on the FTP. People could earn their way in, maybe give access to certain users could be a lot of admin work entering all the compliant users, I would be willing to help with something to that degree, giving time to those that spend countless hours helping out people like me.
JuniorPhatFarm said:
As I've frequented my fair amount of forums, I'd suggest for specific ROM Downloads, or Radio Downloads, Cab files, that users there me be a hidden link and set for users to see if they have a certain amount of posts. Good to that is that you will see Quickly who is simply spamming to get access. Just a thought... I've been able to SuperCid, and Sim Unlock, as well as upgrade to WM6, just by reading several posts and the WIKI. It's really not that difficult.
Even me would not be able to access with some of these restrictions, but that is alright as something like this is very much needed.
ROMS = 50 posts, or active for 8- 12 months
Radio = 40 posts, or active 6 months
CAB files = 25 posts or active 3 months, etc...
Thoughts???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Idea sounds good but the noobs do tend to post a lot....
Most of it rubbish or repeated requests over and over and over...........
Another problem is that some of us (like me) have not been on the forums long but are far from noobs because we have only just switched to a hermes from another PDA
Suggest big sign on front page:
THIS IS NOT A SUPPORT SITE
Perhaps longer than thirty days? If you are serious about this stuff then there is sooooo much to read and understand, and then read again. This would hopefully avoid all the
"I just bricked my phone! - HELP ME"
or
"I want Crossbow - where can I download it"
where people do not read first.
Postcount limits might encourage lots of one line no purpose posts, and to sort the good from the bad requires a lot of time and effort from mods.
self inflicted problem?
one of the problems is that most *interesting* posts (new releases, etc) are 10+ pages long and full of pointless posts and cr*p ("can't wait", "downloading now", etc.). reading these posts have become more and more difficult. Doing a search also leads to loads of crappy posts.
The problem is that the higher your rating / grade / status, the more likely you are to have innondated the forum earlier with pointless posts. A senior member-only forum (or similar) will create more incentives for people to post crappy things until their postcount is high enough... don't think this is the way forward.
As for removing the link to WMBlackEd2.0 and stop releasing public updates: although i fully respect jasjamming's stand on this, I think it goes against the spirit of this great place. there is a difference between "decommissioning" something, and not "supporting it" anymore. I feel the link to the download should be there for people to install the rom and try it, and future releases made public (if thats what he intended to do in the first place) but the thread should be a closed one: people, download it and support it yourself or don't download it at all if you don't know what you're doing.
maybe this will deter enough neebies from the site and help make this place the great place it used to be.
the wiki should be used as front page for the site, with all resources there. I am sure not everyone knows about the wiki, as it is somewhat hidden from the main xda-developer page.
just my thoughts...
by the way, I have not posted for a while as i upgraded / downgraded / sorted out issues all by myself after doing loads of reading and searching... but I must admit that only 10% of the posts on the whole site are helpful/meaningful - the rest is an attempt by people to increase their postcount.... and this really puts me off.
With the amount of editing and new versions of ROM's and applications, and people's suggestions, it takes going 39 pages deep into a thread to get any good info, or a download.
For Example, Kavana's thread, Rickwyatt's thread....my god. Is it possible to sticky JUST the latest version of ROM's, applications, etc.
So many versions of everyone's ROM, it's hard for the newer people (such as myself) to know wtf ROM to get, and to know if they're inclusive to updates from the previous version.
I installed Kavana's lastest ROM a few weeks ago, but I like some of the updates that Rickwyatt has done, but it's so hard to understand the progression of versions. Also Rickwyatt's threat makes my eyes bleed with all the ascii seperating the versions. A FINAL version would be nice, and a list of what it includes.
Another sticky with add-on links or attachments would be key as well. I think keeping ROMs and apps down to a few threads would be a lot easier for people who are new to flashing to understand.
I wish we had a moderator in this forum, that actually took care of these things, but it doesn't look like one exists.
d0m1n0 said:
With the amount of editing and new versions of ROM's and applications, and people's suggestions, it takes going 39 pages deep into a thread to get any good info, or a download.
For Example, Kavana's thread, Rickwyatt's thread....my god. Is it possible to sticky JUST the latest version of ROM's, applications, etc.
So many versions of everyone's ROM, it's hard for the newer people (such as myself) to know wtf ROM to get, and to know if they're inclusive to updates from the previous version.
I installed Kavana's lastest ROM a few weeks ago, but I like some of the updates that Rickwyatt has done, but it's so hard to understand the progression of versions. Also Rickwyatt's threat makes my eyes bleed with all the ascii seperating the versions. A FINAL version would be nice, and a list of what it includes.
Another sticky with add-on links or attachments would be key as well. I think keeping ROMs and apps down to a few threads would be a lot easier for people who are new to flashing to understand.
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I think you're absolutely right. Doing so would eliminate a lot of the redundant questions that continue to be asked. By the way, it bothers me when noobs get pounced on because they ask questions that have already been covered. Unless they've been lurking for weeks prior to registering--how are they to know that their issues have already been adressed several times before?! I'm by no means an expert...but I am a tad more knowledgeable now than I was when I first logged on here. I STILL have "noobish" questions here and there! Some are VERRRRRY NOOBISH! lol But I would hope that someone would lend a hand to help me out from time to time. ((exhaling)) Whew...
I agree with everything that what just said. I am new and I find it hard to search for anything because I don't know what's new or updating. I started a thread for help and no one seems to wanna help.
I've been here for a while now, I just don't post as much, only if necessary and mind you, getting my thread sticked - The Upgrade from Windows 5 to 6 Guide was a mission. I even asked to be the moderator for this forum because I really have a good idea as to where what can go, Me & OrganicM/Ricky/Kavana/RIPSyntaxx are some of the members I can think of as moderators. I asked many times to be the moderator but I didn't even get a reply to know if I was selected or not.
If I'm elected as the moderator, I'll organize everything as soon as possible and delete threads that are not needed and taking space for no reason. I'll do it accordingly
1) Guides for Upgrading/Solution to Errors etc
2) SIM/CID/APP Unlock
3) ROMS
4) Registry Hacks/Tweaks
5) Apps
6) Backgrounds/Themes
7) Games
6) Suggestions
7) Etc
- That's just a quick rough format but you get the drill
and let me tell you something, I completely agree even with whatever that's been said, even though I'm an old member - I had to dig through threads to even find stuff that's worth it for me, for example - registry tweaks for OldSaps Favorites to work - cmon now :S
I had to search and search - so why not make it easier for all newb's and old members so everythings organized and in one place??
Can some moderator help us out? In the smartphone section, we have the most Excalibur users compared to other phones. I'm not putting anyone down but there's many threads compared to others.
Why not make 3 moderators for each section? If you guys think I'm good enough to be a moderator, I don't mind. I'd be happy to moderate - If not me, no problem - Anyone senior who knows the subject and knows what to do to keep this thread clean !
Please Help Us, Moderators !
lukybandit said:
I've been here for a while now, I just don't post as much, only if necessary and mind you, getting my thread sticked - The Upgrade from Windows 5 to 6 Guide was a mission. I even asked to be the moderator for this forum because I really have a good idea as to where what can go, Me & OrganicM/Ricky/Kavana/RIPSyntaxx are some of the members I can think of as moderators. I asked many times to be the moderator but I didn't even get a reply to know if I was selected or not.
If I'm elected as the moderator, I'll organize everything as soon as possible and delete threads that are not needed and taking space for no reason. I'll do it accordingly
1) Guides for Upgrading/Solution to Errors etc
2) SIM/CID/APP Unlock
3) ROMS
4) Registry Hacks/Tweaks
5) Apps
6) Backgrounds/Themes
7) Games
6) Suggestions
7) Etc
- That's just a quick rough format but you get the drill
and let me tell you something, I completely agree even with whatever that's been said, even though I'm an old member - I had to dig through threads to even find stuff that's worth it for me, for example - registry tweaks for OldSaps Favorites to work - cmon now :S
I had to search and search - so why not make it easier for all newb's and old members so everythings organized and in one place??
Can some moderator help us out? In the smartphone section, we have the most Excalibur users compared to other phones. I'm not putting anyone down but there's many threads compared to others.
Why not make 3 moderators for each section? If you guys think I'm good enough to be a moderator, I don't mind. I'd be happy to moderate - If not me, no problem - Anyone senior who knows the subject and knows what to do to keep this thread clean !
Please Help Us, Moderators !
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Click to collapse
Let's make this guy moderator. newbs like me need a guide.
I agree! This forum is great but looking for the information is become more difficult and sometimes confusing.
I agree we need some moderators here, but i think we might have to post this on the general Section, see if we get the moderators to help us out.
I fully agree. I joined this forum just a couple of weeks ago, and it's been a living h*ll waving through all the threads here at XDA and at Howardforums just to find the solutions I need. Even the FAQ threads at Howardforums are ancient and 50+ pages, just a lot of stuff to read.
Get a poll going on.
I definitely agree with this and strongly urge EVERYONE to support so we can get 3 moderators. I myself can be one depending on user response as I'm familiar with the layout, the content and have been here for a while to know what's good and what's not. I was the one who wrote the The Windows Mobile 5 to 6 Guide and I know it helped a lot of people. Before, people used to post questions non stop and eventually a lot of users got frustrated. I do suggest a FULL CLEAN UP of this section and I could get it done hopefully by the coming weekend if everyone here helps me out to become a moderator. Here's my suggestions for moderators
1) Organic (AMAZING Contributor - The 6.1 Slide Panel King)
2) Outerdepth (Very Helpful - Has the knowledge and the resources available to help you)
3) PudgeDaddy (Was one of the prime reasons behind Weather Panel and has contributed a lot as well and is very helpful from first-hand experience
and finally Me only because I do have the extra time to help clean up the mess, have the knowledge, have been posting regularly and finally know what to do when it comes to helping the majority of questions.
It's upto you guys and someone has to e-mail the Moderators because I did in the past and No Luck. Finally, I'm not sure if everyone's willing to do this (from the 3 that I suggested) but I definitely will be happy to do it.
Keep Posting and Let's do something about this, guys !
What do you say guys?
Help me out here.
if you want to provide useful, up-to-date info, why not use the wiki?
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=HTC_Excalibur
I will be happy to moderate the threads and forum here. I'm here almost 24 7 anyway. I've also tried to PM other moerators and even the admin...with no luck.
After reading this thread, I feel like I'm on Capitol Hill. lol Re-elect lukybandit for District 4 congressman!
I posted a verbose request for Mods (or making our own) to the staff here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=392112
Please visit, and maybe tack your approval on too? If everyone does this, it might affect them more?
Profezza said:
I posted a verbose request for Mods (or making our own) to the staff here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=392112
Please visit, and maybe tack your approval on too? If everyone does this, it might affect them more?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did my part on this lets hope we get more people to comment on it so we could get this going.
I'd be more than happy to moderate the Excalibur thread as well. I am almost here 24/7 myself. Me, Organic & one more person who is a regular (so far I've seen outerdepth to be pretty regular and jjdograz - not sure if thats the right username) but yes both of these are very helpful, have the knowledge and are pretty regular. I'd definitely help this forum out. I know what to do and how to get rid of the junk as soon as possible and help this thread a better place to be. Right now, in my opinion - it is a nightmare. So many newb's and even old-timers have such a hard time finding the right information. As Windows 6.1 is the current ROM, Me & Organic will collaborate and break it down for everybody with the right sticky's and information needed to get your 6.1 up & running without errors. Furthermore, I will have Recommendations (for apps, regedits), solutions to errors etc. You get the picture. I love XDA and so does almost everybody. Without XDA, my phone would have been a HTC s620 but thanks to XDA it's now a customized and highly modified machine.
I've said what I could have, please read my previous posts to see what I would do and how I would do things. If you don't think I'm the right person, no problem
I only want 3 moderators in this forum so visiting XDA could be a peaceful one. As of now, the search function has been fully abused, atleast by me because I have such a hard time finding the right information when infact, all the crucial information should be stickied.
Anyway, do your part and help get this going. As it'll only benefit newbies and ofcourse old timers, it's best we get to this as soon as possible. Thanks
Cmon guys we got to get this going so we could have a beter looking forum and make it easy to all of us to find updates.
I think the ROM cooks just need to learn to use the wiki. e.g. have a table sorted by date of all the ROMs and a page about each.
Good point... but the question is... will the majority of the users use the wiki ? Nope.
[highlight]Mod Edit: @Mikey or overground: I have stuck this thread in here, but I will let both of you decide on the future of this sticky as I don't want to step on your toes in the organization of such stickies. It is a pretty good "Read First" thread and should remain stuck IMHO.
egzthunder1[/highlight]
When you start to look into rooting your phone, remember what Uncle Ben said:
"With great power comes great responsibility."
I struggled with whether to post this thread under "Development" or "General." I didn't see anything similar already under Development, and I firmly believe a thread such as this needs to be front and center in the Development area. As the OTA has been leaked (twice!), more and more inexperienced "junior modders" have started to comment in the forums. This is all well and good, but there really should be a central, basic tutorial including terms, do's and don'ts, etc. available to those that need it, while at the same time cleaning up the threads for specific ROMs from non-ROM-specific questions.
With that being said, I am going to post some basic guidelines/facts below. If you believe any of this information is not correct, please PM me so that we can come to a collaborative agreement without spreading confusion within the thread.
General Information for Beginners (Please At Least Read This Info!)
1. ROOTING IS NOT FOR EVERYONE! Please don't root because it's "cool" if you don't have any idea what you're doing. There really is nothing wrong with waiting for the official OTAs, etc. If you want to experiment with your phone, I applaud you - but see #2.
2. Always read ALL of the directions in a thread FIRST. Keep in mind that many threads will direct you to yet another thread for full instructions on a process - read those instructions entirely too!
3. Once you read the instructions. FOLLOW THEM. Do not take shortcuts. If you do, you may be the owner of a very expensive paperweight.
4. If you think your phone is stuck, boot looping, frozen, or whatever else, especially during a system, radio or ROM flash - DO NOT REMOVE YOUR BATTERY. Step away from the phone, and give it time. Give it at least half an hour, then reassess. (Thanks to sryan2k1)
5. If you encounter a pitfall, you should search the thread before you post your request for help so that you can see if others have had similar difficulties, as well as how they resolved them if they did in fact fix the issue.
6. If you found a solution to your problem you've asked for help on - please, post that you resolved it, and HOW you resolved it, especially if none of the advice offered by others helped.
7. The developer community is inherently an open and helpful one. Always feel free to post your questions, but please try to do your research first and always post your questions in the proper forum and thread. (Thanks to Linux4me28)
8. It's good practice to always make a backup! That may take the form of Nandroid (backing up your entire system, usually through Recovery), but if you start dabbling in ADB it also means rather than overwriting files you should simply append the old file's name until you're sure you've got it right (myfile.zip > myfile.zip.bak).
Rooting and Mod Terms, Basics, etc.
1. "Rooting" means, essentially, providing yourself with administrative rights to your phone.
2. A "ROM" is basically an entire system image - think of it like Windows XP versus Windows 7.
3. A ROM will *not* root your phone.
4. "Bricking" your phone means it's permanently borked. If you can turn your phone on and get to virtually any system screen, you're probably not bricked, and there's probably hope for you and your device!
5. You must be already rooted to install a ROM.
6. A ROM is installed through a custom recovery, such as ClockworkMod Recovery.
7. There are tools in existence, such as UnrEvoked3.x that will assist in easily rooting your phone.
8. The "Radio" is (in layman's terms) the part of the phone that interacts with a service provider's tower, and it too has firmware. Flashing a Radio image is a bit more of a risky proposition than just flashing a ROM, but it may be required in some cases. Again, ALWAYS READ THE DIRECTIONS.
9. ROMs are device-specific and, oftentimes, Radio-specific as well. This means that you must pay attention to the requirements for the ROM you want to install.
10. Remember: Rooting doesn't mean that you'll have any more success in "pirating" software. It just means you'll be able to control more of your phone's functions. I think you'll find that the developer community is even more protective of IP rights than the average user-base. A lot of developers work off of donations, but that doesn't mean that credit for their original works shouldn't be given.
Miscellaneous
1. Google is your friend, and so is the "Search Thread" tool. Please do not post questions in a thread when you could easily, and more quickly, find the answer by doing a search. That's just lazy .
Links to Other Helpful Threads
HTC Droid Incredible Helpful/Popular Threads (Thanks to stroupified)
I welcome any additions, but let's keep this polite and courteous. I was new at this once, myself - three weeks ago I purchased my first Android device, the Dinc. And yes, I mean that to be a somewhat strange statement. Before I've done ANY modifications, I've read the instructions, read the entire thread, and followed all directions to the letter. The only pitfall I've had was because I took a shortcut - once (but I learned my lesson!).
Changelog
08/04/10 - Cleaned up some formatting and spelling. Added contributions from others.
08/05/10 - Added links from other contributors, as well as additional information. Things were also getting unwieldy, so I broke things up a bit to make it more readable. If everyone prefers it all mashed together like it was, please let me know.
Excellent advice, sir.
I lurked here for months before trying to root and install ROMS. While I'm not a pro at it yet and have much to learn, I have more confidence in what I'm doing.
I think the reason most people try rooting is because they think they will get "free" apps or something, like its something they can do to pirate software with their phone or something. I do not think they understand the process completely.
To simplify your post OP,
If you want to root and are inexperienced, read what you are doing first over and over or at least have insurance...Most problems people have is caused by their ignorance, not the fact a program did something wrong.
I was new to rooting with my Moto Droid. Before that I was loading hybrid OS's on my POS Storm. Due to having lots of computer experience, I picked up rooting and ADB quite easily. Most people that root though, I really think they are looking for the ability to pirate and not to install custom ROMs, themes, and/or run apps at root level.
^^^ This should be stickied...
I agree with op couldn't said it any better. Also agreed it should be sticky post.
Sent from my ADR6300
Excellent! Bravo!
TNS201 said:
I think the reason most people try rooting is because they think they will get "free" apps or something, like its something they can do to pirate software with their phone or something. I do not think they understand the process completely.
To simplify your post OP,
If you want to root and are inexperienced, read what you are doing first over and over or at least have insurance...Most problems people have is caused by their ignorance, not the fact a program did something wrong.
I was new to rooting with my Moto Droid. Before that I was loading hybrid OS's on my POS Storm. Due to having lots of computer experience, I picked up rooting and ADB quite easily. Most people that root though, I really think they are looking for the ability to pirate and not to install custom ROMs, themes, and/or run apps at root level.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have a character flaw of wanting to wring the very last drop of performance out of my electronic devices...plus I find it challenging.
I'm sure there's a bit of "I'm really not supposed to be doing this" involved as well.
magneticzero said:
There is no reason this belongs in the dev thread. reported.
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I am going to have to disagree with you. A general set of guidelines for people to follow are always a good idea in a development forum. Something like this is bound to catch at least a few wandering eyes of new-comers into the site. By reading this, they will likely lurk around, read, and search before asking questions, avoiding possible flaming in the process (and making mod's lives a bit easier in the process too )
Also, fairly important, if you are in the middle of a flash/recovery, and you think the phone has frozen, or bricked, or stopped. DO NOT PULL THE BATTERY OUT.
Wait at least a half hour before touching it. It is the same with any device, a computer BIOS, phones, embedded devices, it may not look like it is doing anything, but it likely still is. That is one of the few ways to really brick a device is yank the power in the middle of a OS/ROM/Baseband/Etc flash.
We do it all the time on our hardware at work, but we have JTAG ports where we can reprogram the internal/external flash with a external tools. We don't have that luxury on these phones. Patience is your friend.
well said sir. the incredible was my first android device and i waited a couple months before i rooted it and felt comfortable with adb and weighed the benefits of rooting vs not rooting (that took like 2 min lol) I love technology and belive in running it to it's full potential because we paid $xxx.xx for our divices we should want to get our money's worth.
i was gonna suggest some threads that helped me out but someone has alread complied them into it's own thread. maybe you could make a shortcut for those people who are new to the forum. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=739428
magneticzero said:
Good read, but it is just "General Information". How is it directly helping me development a ROM or OS update? Just wondering...
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It benefits you in that you hopefully might have fewer people cluttering your Dev threads. No offense, but you're assuming the average consumer is going to look in "General Information" for General Information. They don't. There should be some detterent in place. As these types of devices become more prevalent, you should understand that the average "Development" visitor and poster is no longer a Developer.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
thank you.
great hopefully more people will read this
magneticzero said:
So what you are implying it isnt really a development section of the forum....maybe they need to lock it and just post releases to you in the general forum....no matter what people are still gonna post crap and clutter this place.
I vote lock this forum to developers only and make it read only for general public.
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magneticzero said:
i am entitled to my opinion. cheers!
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With all due respect, you have been around for less than a month. XDA has historically been a place where people contribute, come to learn from each other, and get help if needed be. What you are suggesting here goes completely against the whole ethos of XDA as a community. Non-devs come here to learn from the devs. Unfortunately, many people from the newer forums have very little tolerance for others who may not be at their level, and this really gets in my nerves as well as the rest of the mods. While I agree that people should search and read prior to posting questions, I wholeheartedly disagree with the fact that as of recently, people cannot even post a single question without being flamed to smithereens. The OP simply posted a very useful and to the point guide with suggestions (and yes, it is basic but not everyone can understand how to make a new kernel).
At this point, I would like to ask you to stop posting these kinds of comments in this thread. You are trying to start a very much unneeded argument in a thread whose sole purpose of existence is to prevent the sole thing that you are complaining about in the first place. This thread will stay in place and that's the end of it. I have talked this over with overground and Mikey (both in charge of this section) and they have agreed with my decision.
While you are entitled to give your two cents, you are not allowed to troll and or flame, and starting unnecessary arguments for no reason is considered flaming.
Quite honestly this is the most sensible piece of information on XDA. I implore you to talk to some of the other dev mods (particularly evo 4g) and offer to add this as a sticky. I've been here a short while myself, but have already seen things devolved to a level of non-civility that makes me not want to participate anymore myself.
Seriously, awesome post.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
egzthunder1 said:
With all due respect, you have been around for less than a month. XDA has historically been a place where people contribute, come to learn from each other, and get help if needed be. What you are suggesting here goes completely against the whole ethos of XDA as a community. Non-devs come here to learn from the devs. Unfortunately, many people from the newer forums have very little tolerance for others who may not be at their level, and this really gets in my nerves as well as the rest of the mods. While I agree that people should search and read prior to posting questions, I wholeheartedly disagree with the fact that as of recently, people cannot even post a single question without being flamed to smithereens. The OP simply posted a very useful and to the point guide with suggestions (and yes, it is basic but not everyone can understand how to make a new kernel).
At this point, I would like to ask you to stop posting these kinds of comments in this thread. You are trying to start a very much unneeded argument in a thread whose sole purpose of existence is to prevent the sole thing that you are complaining about in the first place. This thread will stay in place and that's the end of it. I have talked this over with overground and Mikey (both in charge of this section) and they have agreed with my decision.
While you are entitled to give your two cents, you are not allowed to troll and or flame, and starting unnecessary arguments for no reason is considered flaming.
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We all need to start somewhere. Few people come here at the level of a Mr Koush.
douger1957 said:
We all need to start somewhere. Few people come here at the level of a Mr Koush.
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You know what's great though? Even he offered to meet me in IRC to help with an issue one time. That's what's great about this community.
I am a lurker and while I was good at messing with custom ROMS in Windows, I have been crawling up a steep learning curve with Android. But then I am a 50 year old lady lawyer so of course it's steep...
I rarely post anything. I do NOT ask questions because I do not want yelled at. BUT!
I have learned a great deal from other peoples' questions and the answers provided by the technically adept. Please don't close this forum to civilians. The information imparted in the give and take between n00bs and pros is invaluable as a teaching method, really it is.
The one observation I would make, though, is that 500 page forums are not really useful. Maybe shut them down more quickly as issues which emerge are addressed. For instance, once a newer ROM has been released, or patched, or an issue resolved, close that forum and start a new one with the resolved issue as the subject of the new thread and a link to it as the last post in the referring thread.
Thank to all of you for making owning a droid a blast!
Read and re-read....
I bricked a phone cause i read something wrong, once i read it again i got it, plus i had a few older phones that i toyed with to see if i understood everything.....nice having a few older devices around to test if your a noob. Like myself....
I totally agree with all that has been said here. The DInc took a long time to get root, but once it did, I was ready to give it a shot..as I had already been flashing, and cooking roms for my WM 6800..and also loaded a few hybrid OS's on my Storm.. so this was naturally the next chapter in my development as a developer...which is the endgame.. Bravo to all who help to keep rooting/modding fun, and edifying! Next I'm going to see if I can cook up my own Froyo ROM..
Let me start by saying that this is just a moan thread, and I don't ask or expect that anything comes from it other than me getting something off my chest and seeing what others think.
I'm a very regular reader and contributor in the HD2 forum, as I have been for over a year now. I like the fact that it's such a busy forum as this obviously means we have a larger resource pool and get answers to issues a lot quicker than a more sparsely populated forum. There is, however, a down-side to this as well. More people does mean more help, but it also means more idiots.
Unfortunately, there's a growing gang of members in the HD2 forum that seem to thrive on posts such as...
"Search for the answer, *****"
or...
"Are you a total retard?"
Now I know that some people ask what a lot of us feel are dumb questions, and a LOT of people are guilty of posting questions without searching thoroughly first, therefore repeating threads, but it seems to be becoming a sport to deal with them with stronger and stronger animosity.
I personally have been guilty of posting "This is the wrong forum" or "This has been answered - please search", but the recent number of similar posts has made me rethink the situation.
First of all, just insulting someone is point-blank out-of-order, and I usually tend to report such posts and hope the mods agree and deal with the individual in question. So that's that done. Now we're left with the "already answered" posts.
This is all hypothetical, so don't do the following search and tell me I was wrong, okay
Say I searched for "bluetooth android not working" and didn't find anything that suited my situation and decided to open a thread. I start one called "bluetooth android not working" and explain my problem. UserXXX comes along and says "This has been answer like a million times. Use the search function"
Now let's go 2 weeks into the future when someone else has the exact same problem. They type into the search "bluetooth android not working" and they find my thread. "Great!" they think, till they read the thread. It's of no use to them whatsoever. So they start a new thread. Guess what - UserXXX comes along and says "This has been answered a million times! I'm getting sick of telling people to search!!!"
This happens every 2 weeks, with different users having the same problems and not finding a solution, therefore posting a new thread.
Okay. Here I have to say that none of the above users searched well enough - that is a valid point, and cannot be changed. By the time they start a new thread it's too late to simply tell them this.
But now, 6 months down the line, we have 12 threads that are titled "bluetooth android not working", and not one of them has an actual answer in it. By this point, the forum is becoming pretty pointless.
All it would take is for Mr.Genius-at-searching UserXXX to have searched, as he claims is easy to do, find a link and then post whatever he wants, with the link at the end of it...
"Here's a link, you **** tard. Learn to search. I can do it, so I have the right to tell you to do it. Want proof I can search? Here it is...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/noonardfoundananswer.php"
Basically, people giving it "do a search if you want answers" should help out new users in doing so. Do a search and maybe tell them what your search criteria was. Maybe they didn't know what NAND was when they were asking about flashing Android to replace WM6.5. Maybe they misspelt "blootueth". They need help, not an arrogant waste of space that generates just as much garbage post in the forum, but with an added side-dish of anger.
Finally, I know that we shouldn't spoon-feed people, as they will never learn to do things themselves. What I am suggesting is that if someone knows how to do something and they find someone who clearly doesn't, then they should help them, rather than just act like an idiot.
Phew. Rant over
Edit: Incidentally, apologies to those who've pointed out that it's not just the HD2 forums that are like this. I didn't mean to imply that they're the only place it happens. I just can't talk from experience for any of the other forums.
Completely agree.
This is something I try to do now (having flamed and abused in the past ) for the reasons you have stated above.
Take this post for example, I even provided a link.
Why goto the effort of answering a post if you are not going to provide an answer.
As for "don't ask or expect that anything comes from it". I would hope others who don't provide usfull replies read this and take something away from it.
Dave
DaveShaw said:
Completely agree.
This is something I try to do now (having flamed and abused in the past ) for the reasons you have stated above.
Take this post for example, I even provided a link.
Why goto the effort of answering a post if you are not going to provide an answer.
As for "don't ask or expect that anything comes from it". I would hope others who don't provide usfull replies read this and take something away from it.
Dave
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Thanks for the comments Dave. Glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks like this.
I do get abrupt with people but I also help alot, hence why I have 50 thanks.
I really do not mind helping people but what I cant stand is lazyness. Its one thing been new to teh subject and not knowing something and then asking for help but its another to simply not even bother checking a forum stickies or at least doing a simple search before creating a topic that has already been created.
On some occasions its because the subject is a hard one to search and filter out but on allot of occasions you know its simply because they have not bothered and thought they would just create a topic and let other people do work for them, That is what I cant stand.
Although I have stopped been really abrupt I will still not answer these people but instead choose to make sure they are aware that its not on.
Yes you can say that we was all new once and some people need their arse wiping for them but that is absolutely no excuse. When I first joined this forum I did allot of reading and learned allot of stuff in process, some info I didnt need at the time but later helped me with other stuff and resulted in me not needing to clone topics or ask questions that have already been asked and answered.
Completely agree with what the OP is trying to say.
TheATHEiST said:
I do get abrupt with people but I also help alot, hence why I have 50 thanks.
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Are the from people you helped, or from people who liked your quips? (j/k)
TheATHEiST said:
Yes you can say that we was all new once and some people need their arse wiping for them but that is absolutely no excuse. When I first joined this forum I did allot of reading and learned allot of stuff in process, some info I didnt need at the time but later helped me with other stuff and resulted in me not needing to clone topics or ask questions that have already been asked and answered.
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I think the point John is making, is that the unhelpful replies limit users ability to search. For example, searching for "Help Flashing Evo" will find threads with the answer "Use Search", (recursion ) hence annoying the user and causing them to post instead of carrying on.
Users who don't bother reading/searching are (and probably always will be) a problem, hence svetius's change requiring 10 post to use Development forums; we need to find more efficient ways to help them
Dave
thank you very much!!! i have been thinking about this topic a long by myself, but i didnt dare to mention it with my low post counter.
I got my HD2 only 1 month ago and its my first WM device. I am very good with all technical devices, but it was still very hard for me to find the right answers.
As i just bricked my nokia phone during an update i wanted to make sure to not brick my HD2..
its hard to get all the information, and i was thinking about creating a webpage - which really expalains idiot-proof how everything works.
oida_oida said:
its hard to get all the information, and i was thinking about creating a webpage - which really expalains idiot-proof how everything works.
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Click to collapse
The guides and the wikis + plethora of resources are already in place especially for establishes devices like the Leo. The only issues is the "newer" crowd is lazy and does not search and hence hundreds of threads asking questions to which answers have already been mentioned sometime somewhere on the forum. That's not the only issue- the problem is that these newer people won't be patient or even post in the correct place.
For eg. I have seen threads about Android development being posted in Win D&H.
We have to live & deal with it, it's a side effect of growth and progress.
JM2C's.
There seems to be a significant amount of animosity of late in all forums - not just HD2. I'm not certain as to why this is, all I do know is that I find unacceptable. As moderators, we spend more time cleaning up flame & troll posts than working on our own community contributions.
My observations:
XDA is about bringing together folks who have similar passions about mobile technology. As such, I expect a certain degree of maturity and professionalism from all members during their "stay" on this forum.
Responses that provide helpful and constructive information as opposed to "use the search", "try Google", "it's broken", "fix it", etc. help guide the thread back to topic. Here's a few examples:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9929554&postcount=4
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10749020&postcount=7
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10097254&postcount=22
There is absolutely no reason to respond in a rude tone, make someone feel stupid, or disrespect a member trying to offer something back to the community ... it is not constructive and serves no purpose. Members are never forced to frequent a thread on this forum and as previously stated, members should choose to move on instead of posting inflammatory comments.
Shortly after the launch of a well advertised mobile device, there is an influx of new members. Most all carriers and device manufacturers send their customers to XDA for technical assistance. Place a call to your carrier technical support department, it won't take long before the support representative instructs you to: "check out XDA, they have tons of information on how to fix that ...".
Most of newcomers who frequent the site are under the misconception that XDA is an extension of their carrier technical support department. This becomes apparent when I read posts complaining about issues with features or demanding an answer to their problem. As most of these newcomers are less technical, they lack the expertise required to assess the problem and determine the correct terminology to use in a search.
The current consumer model is not conducive to holding carrier and device manufacturers accountable. The current marketing paradigm is about convenience and how the one device that "does it all" is here. Most consumers buy into the paradigm and spend little to no time researching before the purchase. Once the device is purchased and fails to meet expectations, they simply go out and purchase something else.
vBulletin Search is horrible and unless one has a PhD in XDA Google Search, the likelihood of finding a meaningful answer in a billion threads is well ... challenging at best.
There are other observations that I have made; but the ones above are IMHO, some of the key issues and why I prefer to take a less aggressive approach when moderating newcomer posts.
Regards,
Those observations are very accurate and sums up the issue well, Hilaireg.
Thanks to all for giving your two cents on this rather important issue. The problems that we currently face are a product of people not having a sense of community. As hilaireg stated, many come here for a "quick fix" simply because the CSR at their company had no idea what to do and decided to direct you here to see if maybe you could fix the issue yourself.
Admittedly, there are search engines that are somewhat better than vB's, but the point that the OP is making is 100% dead on target. By playing "smarta$$" and replying "search, you n00b" instead of providing any meaningful reply will do nothing else than dilute the results of your search. Having said this, people complaining that the search does not work, 8 times out of 10, are expecting the right answer to pop up in the first result from the thread, and will probably give up if by the second or third link they have not found anything. Patience is a virtue, and people looking for knowledge should expect for this to come at the price of a little effort.
I went from a $10 clamshell dumdum phone for 6 years, whambang straght into my Leo. I am over 36 & under 38 years old.
It took me 3 months of fumbling around getting peeved over constant resetting and crashes.
Not once did I bother anyone here with a question that with a bit of hands on do-it-yourself would eventually learn on my own.
However, I had Tmo tech. on speed dial...
I am not new to the forum game though...check my thread "Throttled". lol.
anywho, my phone will remain stock with tweaks, skins, and sweet theme action.
This is an awesome piece of awesome, but NOT for the severely impatient or timid.
Thank you XDA for doing the absolute maximum in making my leo purrrr!!!!
and moan threads are for sissies btw...lol.
@ hilaireg & egzthunder1
I understand and agree to some extent your points but the fact of the matter is that something really needs to be done to halt or slow down the amount of dupe posts or other that are polluting/diluting the forum.
I'm going to be honest I dont really have any problems using vB search and usally find the info I need. PLUS much rather find the info myself because it also makes me learn other stuff in process that I may need in future that I wouldnt usually learn if I had just gone and asked somebody for specific info.
Here are the steps I take to find the relevant info...
Check stickies
Check latest topics
Use search function (topic titles)
Use search function (topic content)
Then if I dont find any info I want I begin to start a new thread and take note of the "similar threads" function before posting. If all else fails I use google.
The problem is that 99% of newbies dont do any of this or very little to look for what they need info/help on, They just rather create a topic and let the info be brought to them, which is fine but majority of questions are already answered in stickies or tuts/guides which are easy to find.
I really think that we need to have a 100 post limit on the dev section this will reduce by allot the amount of spam we get, maybe not specifically for replying to topics but certainly for creating them. And also maybe a FAQ sticky in each Q&A forum with links to most asked ones.
TheATHEiST said:
The problem is that 99% of newbies dont do any of this or very little to look for what they need info/help on, They just rather create a topic and let the info be brought to them, which is fine but majority of questions are already answered in stickies or tuts/guides which are easy to find.
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The newbies aren't the only problem.
*You* yourself recently lit into a newbie in a very uncalled for fashion. With your post and the followups to your post, you helped muddy the waters for finding actual solutions.
There are solutions:
1) the OPs start updating their original posts with solutions to outstanding problems. The search engine is only as good as the queries being put into it, and as more "SEARCH DA TRED NEB3!!!" responses fill the thread, that makes actually finding the solution all the more difficult.
2) Regulars stop flaming the newbies. When I first started posting here I got a number of @ss**** responses to reasonable questions. If regulars behave like that, what type of newbs do you think you're attracting?
Lets not make this a 'he said/she said' or a pointing-fingers thread.
For a solution to the problem at hand, when we see such behavior, we can easily rectify it - as the OP stated - by posting the answer to questions instead of telling the person to search for the answer.
Now this does also bring a 'double-edge' scenario: This may give the n00bs the idea that it is okay to post a question without searching. But this is already happening.
So if we at least cut the amount of posts about the same topic down, there will be less of what bothers the senior members. And we won't have to suggest 'Search the forums for the answer.'
As a possible-soon-to-be-moderator of the Herald forums, I promise to do this myself. Hopefully, we can all agree to do the same as Senior Members of this community. I also don't expect anyone who has less than a hundred posts to do this, but, hopefully a trend will catch on.
apallohadas said:
The newbies aren't the only problem.
*You* yourself recently lit into a newbie in a very uncalled for fashion. With your post and the followups to your post, you helped muddy the waters for finding actual solutions.
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Hey I didnt say they was the only problem, hence "99%".
If we keep re-iterating the same answers we are just going round in circles. The ONLY way to solve this is to somehow halt/slow them from asking the same repeat questions in first place, not just keep providing the answers every time they decide to be lazy and ask the same question and not just that they also ask them by creating a topic in the wrong places.
It's not just the HD2 forum, it's the same in the Desire one too (and yes, I'm guilty of a bit of flaming but some people just ask EXTREMELY dumb questions and even when you answer continue to ignore you so they deserve it)
Rule 1 of the forum is to search and for those who haven't even done that they deserve it too. But to those who say they've actually tried and not found anything I'll try and be helpful
These people just need to learn the proper way to ask a question. If you want a response from the power-hungry people who reply with insults, you must phrase it properly.
Instead of saying: "How do you get bluetooth working in Android NAND?"
They need to say: "Android on the HD2 SUCKS because bluetooth doesn't work right!"
What you will then see is these jerks flocking to prove the OP wrong, all while answering his question. 90% of the time, it works every time.
But if we do keep reiterating the answers to properly asked questions, that makes the search engine more useful for those that do use it. The answer doesn't get buried in 'you suk n00b' responses.
If a person feels they can't respond without insults, then they should have the self control not to respond right?
IMO the ones with knowledge need self control and should control their temper; and be helping ( luckily for us most are ).
And the n00bs need to know the forum decorum and manners better.
And the minimum posts requirement to post in dev. section is a small but very important step in the right direction, I recall when I signed up on XDA for months I was just reading and posting. And posted only in the Q&A threads or threads related to fashing/ROMs ( when I needed help with that); but these days the people won't have the patience to do that.
Either we need to vomit it out on them or somehow teach them the old school method of search + posting on right threads/forums.
Why are you judging members by their post count?
For lack of a better alternative. I challenge anyone to come up with a better alternative.
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OK. You need a 'user points' system. I'm more familiar with Drupal than vb (you should probably upgrade sometime), so I'm not sure what's available for vb, if anything. You want something similar to this: http://drupal.org/project/userpoints
Users then earn points for performing certain actions on your site (not just posting), you can assign different amounts of points for different actions. Points can be removed too.
Then have a minimum userpoint limit for posting in certain forums.
Then you'd have better control over what activities you were encouraging users to do, rather than just encouraging short spam posts.
Chalenge accepted.
wbaw said:
12aon said:
]Why are you judging members by their post count?
For lack of a better alternative. I challenge anyone to come up with a better alternative, and share it with us.
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OK. You need a 'user points' system.
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First of all I'd like to say "challenge accepted"
@wbaw: I like your Idea of a 'user points' system. To make sure that there are only posts that are above a certain level of standard, you need to create some kind of 'filter'. But I think that, such a system as you have suggested could be exploited as well. As long as there are technical rules to be fulfilled one can just do so and get his status right.
@12aon: In my opinion we need a rating system for the quality of posts and based on this a hiding mechanism for posts.
Let me explain why I came up and what I mean by this.
I have to confess that I'm a heavy user of youtube. And here you have a good example what I mean. You do not only have the ability to press a "like", "+1" or "thump up" -button but also the possibility to press "thumps down". What I figured out is, that the rating of the videos are surprisingly close to my own opinion. That implies that everyone is sensitive to the quality of a video (or post?!?) and furthermore that the average opinion about the quality is in average the opinion of the single reader itself (myself).
In the XDA-Forum you have the "Thanks" button. What I suggest is a ... hmmm ... "ingratitude" button (or just do "thumps up and down", "plus and minus", "happy and sad" or whatever you like). Each user has a single voice for each post.
With this mechanism in place, a post that is below a certain threshold could be automatically minimized. I don't mean that they should be deleted, because there might be answers that refer to this particular post. But by minimizing it, bad quality posts get out of the focus of the reader. If wanted, one can still expand and read it (by pressing some kind of an "open button").
That is the first step. In the second step there is a user rating that is based on the post rating of all his posts. So if one does not mind his behavior or is asking stupid questions over and over again. His Account is restricted to post only in the non developer parts of the forum.
The first advantage by applying this functionality is, that silly posts get quite fast out of the focus of the reader.
The second advantage is that silly poster (no offense here ^^) are removed from development forums in the long run.
The third advantage is, that one have to take care of all his posts even in the long run (writing 10 posts does not necessarily means that one have learned its lesson). So the over all quality of the forum itself is increasing.
In my opinion this functionality is a little bit better than restricting everyone (even the high quality poster) to non development forums just because they are not active enough to reach 10 posts.
The problem is, to define the threshold. I've some ideas in my mind, but that would leave the scope of this post which is to invite a new (I know its old, but new to this forum) idea.
Cheers
Ponsel
p.S. Sorry 4 my bad English. Its not my native language.
wbaw said:
OK. You need a 'user points' system. I'm more familiar with Drupal than vb (you should probably upgrade sometime), so I'm not sure what's available for vb, if anything. You want something similar to this: http://drupal.org/project/userpoints
Users then earn points for performing certain actions on your site (not just posting), you can assign different amounts of points for different actions. Points can be removed too.
Then have a minimum userpoint limit for posting in certain forums.
Then you'd have better control over what activities you were encouraging users to do, rather than just encouraging short spam posts.
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I appreciate your ideas on this topic, although I have to admit I am really mystified by this: "....rather than just encouraging short spam posts".
Why do you believe that encouraging users to post in the proper sections with helpful answers to other users is "encouraging short spam posts"? I seriously don't get this idea. It is not really any more difficult to try a little to post even marginally helpful answers to other people in the General and Q&A forums as opposed to "short spam posts".
It is not like getting 10 not-spam posts is that difficult. Probably hundreds do it any given week here. Is it too much to ask that people read a little first, gain some knowledge, try to be a little helpful to others in the General, Q&A, Themes and Apps, and Accessories device forums, or in the general discussion forums, in order to be able to post into any dev thread on this site?
I am not sure if there is a way to add this type of functionality to VBulletin, but I think it just becomes a meaningless stat over time just like the thanks counter, and users will figure out a way to scam it as well.
Ponsel said:
First of all I'd like to say "challenge accepted"
@12aon: In my opinion we need a rating system for the quality of posts and based on this a hiding mechanism for posts.
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This is already in the works from what I hear, there will be rating buttons on each post, enough positive votes raises it up, enough negative votes hides it (not delete).
mf2112 said:
Ponsel said:
First of all I'd like to say "challenge accepted"
@12aon: In my opinion we need a rating system for the quality of posts and based on this a hiding mechanism for posts.
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This is already in the works from what I hear, there will be rating buttons on each post, enough positive votes raises it up, enough negative votes hides it (not delete).
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That sounds great. I'd love to increase the visibility of my favorite ROM and further more rate away bad posts.
Cheers
Ponsel
p.S. Just writing to increase my "noob counter" ;-D
Ponsel said:
That sounds great. I'd love to increase the visibility of my favorite ROM and further more rate away bad posts.
Cheers
Ponsel
p.S. Just writing to increase my "noob counter" ;-D
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I would advise not writing posts to simply increase your post count. That can get the wrong kind of attention. Instead, simply try to write good posts that help people less experienced than you in your devices General or Q&A forum and it won't ever be a problem to worry about.
@wbaw - While the user points system would be a massive change to how things are run at the moment, I can't help feeling that mf2112 is completely right when he says that it'll become just like the thanks button.
In an ideal world, it would be a great idea and would work perfectly well. But in amongst the realms of the internet, a lot of people will simply do all they can just so they can post something wherever they'd like to.
@Ponsel - Even though this rating system can be a great idea and will probably be put into action at some point, I can't help feeling that this system will be exploited aswell.
I say this because quite a few times, in my short time here, I've seen moments when there's been a casual discussion going on with 6/7 people and everything's going great. Then all of a sudden, one states their opinion and none of the others agree with it or like it, so they all gang up on the individual.
In this instance, the 'gang' could quite easily vote all the individuals comments down, thus resulting in him/her being penalized.
Obviously the situation would be able to be rectified in the end, but until a mod has been able to view the whole situation, the individual would still have to be without certain posting rights, which wouldn't be fair.
The third advantage is, that one have to take care of all his posts even in the long run (writing 10 posts does not necessarily means that one have learned its lesson). So the over all quality of the forum itself is increasing.
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^^^I really love this bit because as you mention, people will have to take care of what they post, even if they have thousands of posts. Also, I really do think it would improve the forum quality aswell. Only time will tell as to whether it with get implemented or not and whether it would even be effective, but I do like the idea so far.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
mf2112 said:
Ponsel said:
p.S. Just writing to increase my "noob counter" ;-D
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would advise not writing posts to simply increase your post count.
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I just could not resist to show how easy it is to exploit the "noob counter" system. You just need to start a discussion and keep trolling.
But here's the non trolling reply:
KidCarter93 said:
@Ponsel - Even though this rating system can be a great idea and will probably be put into action at some point, I can't help feeling that this system will be exploited aswell.
I say this because quite a few times, in my short time here, I've seen moments when there's been a casual discussion going on with 6/7 people and everything's going great. Then all of a sudden, one states their opinion and none of the others agree with it or like it, so they all gang up on the individual.
In this instance, the 'gang' could quite easily vote all the individuals comments down, thus resulting in him/her being penalized.
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I know, that my idea is not without any fault. But I think that this problem can be solved by a good threshold. I think its to early to go into details, but to support my idea and to encourage everyone to participate in this discussion (I can't fight the feeling that I'm just trolling again ^^) I'll now suggest one possible solution how to solve this problem.
I think the threshold should work in two steps:
Step 1. As long as there are no more than 5 ratings the post is visible.
Step 2. As long as there are 10% or more positive votes the post should still be visible.
These numbers have materialized out of thin air in front of my inner eye and I'd be glad if some "number cruncher" could calculate better ones. But first let me explain why I've chosen this particular ones.
First of all I'd like to state that I'd rather let a bad post stay visible then losing a good idea. So I would be very careful when filtering them out. By the method that I've suggested, a post would be as visible as long as not at least 6 persons have rated against it. And even then a single positive vote can keep the post above the threshold until there are 10 negative votes against it.
Normal posts will get voted very seldom (just because they don't polarize as much).
Posts that polarize will get some positive and some negative votes and stay above the threshold.
I figure that bad posts are so obvious bad that barely anyone will ever vote them positive (well ... the poster should not be allowed to rate his own post ^^).
The rating system for the account itself must work somehow different. I've no Idea how it should work, but I think that the lowest 5-15% of the "most unpopular" accounts should be restricted on non development forums (these numbers are out of thin air as well ^^).
KidCarter93 said:
Ponsel said:
The third advantage is, that one have to take care of all his posts even in the long run (writing 10 posts does not necessarily means that one have learned its lesson). So the over all quality of the forum itself is increasing.
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^^^I really love this bit because as you mention, people will have to take care of what they post, even if they have thousands of posts. Also, I really do think it would improve the forum quality aswell. Only time will tell as to whether it with get implemented or not and whether it would even be effective, but I do like the idea so far.
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Well in this point I'm not sooo optimistic because normal posts rarely get a rating at all. Giving those assumption someone with a lot of posts might stay above the threshold. It might be advisable to take only the posts with a rating into account, but I'm not sure.
I hope my remarks support my Idea of a rating system for posts ^^
Cheers
Ponsel
only issue i have is i am very experience in flashing roms just new to this site and i have a couple very specific questions about ombg nand and i could not ask. which is my main reason for signing up. there is a ton of great info here but i was having a specific issue with the rom on my rhod400 and i hope to get a answer in general since i couldnt ask directly in that thread.
orangezx10r said:
only issue i have is i am very experience in flashing roms just new to this site and i have a couple very specific questions about ombg nand and i could not ask. which is my main reason for signing up. there is a ton of great info here but i was having a specific issue with the rom on my rhod400 and i hope to get a answer in general since i couldnt ask directly in that thread.
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As others have stated, you should make some helpful posts around the forums. If you say you're sharp at flashing, I'm sure there's a ton of questions you can answer around the forums.
The TP2 is a strange device, in that it runs both Android and WinMo. We really need an "Android General" section for the TP2, which I have tried many times to get...
So unfortunately there's not a whole lot you can do. Just don't go spamming forums with worthless drivel... that will certainly get you unwanted attention.
This is the kind of thing we think about a lot. We actually do have a "points" system in beta on some forums but there are a lot of issues that come into play when you start showing/hiding threads based on points. What if a group gets together and starts voting competing projects down in collective voting blocks?
Right now we simply ask that in order to post in certain sections, that you help others out first. It may not be the ideal solution but it is working for the community at the moment.
Anyway, rest assured we continually evaluate the best way to balance user interaction vs limiting the cruft.
bitpushr said:
This is the kind of thing we think about a lot. We actually do have a "points" system in beta on some forums but there are a lot of issues that come into play when you start showing/hiding threads based on points. What if a group gets together and starts voting competing projects down in collective voting blocks?
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I'm not quite sure how to answer this. I'll try it anyway
My suggestion is for single posts, not for threads. Probably its a good idea to disable the the voting for the initial post of a thread.
It's all about visibility. I don't want to delete the post, just minimize it within the thread.
I'd like to mention the REALLY low threshold. 10% means that every 10 negative votes can be countered by one single positive vote.
If there is a project that figures that there is a competitor the competitor itself must have accumulated enough interest to be recognized as such one. That means that there is a fan base to keep it above the threshold mentioned in point 3.
Last but not least. It might sound harsh, but if a Project can not build up as many fans as needed to defend itself, then probably this project might be not worth working on it (just a thought).
Cheers
Ponsel
We can mention who all have voted up/down on every post (through some expandable option, ofcourse)..
This way, group behaviour can be identified, and accordingly dealt with, by the mods...
Ponsel said:
[*]Last but not least. It might sound harsh, but if a Project can not build up as many fans as needed to defend itself, then probably this project might be not worth working on it (just a thought).
Cheers
Ponsel
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Sorry but an app that is genuinely useful but may only have a handful of responses is just as, if not more valuable to a site like this than some annoying fart/wallpaper application which may have hundreds.
Quantity of responses/thanks clicks is no gauge for quality.
This is a difficult issue to approach and I don't really have an answer for you but my personal feeling has always been that the post count limit should be raised.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
conantroutman said:
Sorry but an app that is genuinely useful but may only have a handful of responses is just as, if not more valuable to a site like this than some annoying fart/wallpaper application which may have hundreds.
Quantity of responses/thanks clicks is no gauge for quality.
This is a difficult issue to approach and I don't really have an answer for you but my personal feeling has always been that the post count limit should be raised.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
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You,sir,are amazing... LOL... Anyway,i also agree that the post count limit should be increased rather than decreased..
conantroutman said:
Sorry but an app that is genuinely useful but may only have a handful of responses is just as, if not more valuable to a site like this than some annoying fart/wallpaper application which may have hundreds.
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See point 4 on my list. A project as small as you seems to have in mind, would never collect enough attention to be recognized as a competitor. it's just to small.
conantroutman said:
Quantity of responses/thanks clicks is no gauge for quality.
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Neither is a "noob counter".
conantroutman said:
This is a difficult issue to approach and I don't really have an answer for you but my personal feeling has always been that the post count limit should be raised.
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Following your argumentation that even small projects might contribute to the developer community, I'd like to express the thought, that even the first post of a completely new account could include the spark of genius that is needed to solve a problem for which even recognized developers could provide a solution since years. One should not use different standards to similar problems. :angel::laugh:
conantroutman said:
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
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Quality of a post is not only based on its contents, but on the manners of the poster as well. The phrase quoted would have made me hesitating to give a positive vote (neither would I rate it down, because your arguments help to figure out the pro and cons of my suggestion and we urgently need to discuss the boundaries of a new idea before doing a field test).
Cheers
Ponsel
Ponsel said:
See point 4 on my list. A project as small as you seems to have in mind, would never collect enough attention to be recognized as a competitor. it's just to small.
The examples given aren't really important, its the principle, just because something is popular does not make it any more relevant or valid. I'm also unsure where the idea of competition comes from. XDA is about collaboration not competition.
Neither is a "noob counter".
It's not a counter, it's a period of introduction to the forums and a chance to contribute to the community befor gaining access to the development forums. It's unfortunate that such measures are necessary but due to the majority of new member simply wishing to ask inane questions or make demands of the developers, they are necessary.
Following your argumentation that even small projects might contribute to the developer community, I'd like to express the thought, that even the first post of a completely new account could include the spark of genius that is needed to solve a problem for which even recognized developers could provide a solution since years. One should not use different standards to similar problems. :angel::laugh:
Very true and one of the major drawbacks to this rule. However, anyone with such knowledge will no doubt either make ten useful posts or alert the relevant party via PM. Anyone who has the attitude of "I know the answer but I'm not sharing it because of the ten post rule" is probably not suited to XDA.
Quality of a post is not only based on its contents, but on the manners of the poster as well. The phrase quoted would have made me hesitating to give a positive vote (neither would I rate it down, because your arguments help to figure out the pro and cons of my suggestion and we urgently need to discuss the boundaries of a new idea before doing a field test).
lol, the phrase you quoted here is my mobile signature and not directed at you or your post here
Cheers
Ponsel
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Responded to your points in red.
Here is my take on the 10-post "issue". I signed up for the forum a few days ago to hopefully get an answer regarding the win mobile phones and Ive searched for an answer and could not find one. I'm not a windows phone user so I dont have a lot of knowledge about the devices so Im not the best person to help (hence lowering my post count). So I have to reply with posts like this to be able to post a real question in the category I really want to post it in. I've asked the question in the Q&A section but because its flooded with everyone's questions I dont think people actually go there to help assist anyone (my short observation).
vitaliyt said:
Here is my take on the 10-post "issue". I signed up for the forum a few days ago to hopefully get an answer regarding the win mobile phones and Ive searched for an answer and could not find one. I'm not a windows phone user so I dont have a lot of knowledge about the devices so Im not the best person to help (hence lowering my post count). So I have to reply with posts like this to be able to post a real question in the category I really want to post it in. I've asked the question in the Q&A section but because its flooded with everyone's questions I dont think people actually go there to help assist anyone (my short observation).
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The development section is not the place for questions. I can assure that posting a question there will get you a response, however it won't be the one you want.
So here is my partial proposed solution to the issue. Upon signup, perhaps the users need to go through a rotating question system (10 questions?) and another captcha? This may take the user longer to sign up and be able to post but maybe there wont be so many abandoned user accounts, not sure if you have current viability on this or not.
Abandoned accounts is not the problem...
The problem is that people think that the dev area is for newb questions...it isn't...
Hence, the initial limitation posed to all, so that they atleast try and understand what this site is about...
"By the power vested in me, I now pronounce you, Man and Knife"