Develop Bugs

Note to NOOBS. You're really annoying. READ! - REMIX

Attention NOOBS. I'm becoming less patient with your posts that include whining and redundancy. This forum isn't here to provide you with all the comforts of your carrier. These roms and installing them is for people who are advanced users of WM. If you need your device for work or if you're new to PocketPCs this isn't the place for you. These roms aren't for you so please stick to your carriers’ rom.
The chefs of these roms aren't here to help you setup your device and to solve all of your issues. If you have issues read, search and fix them. The research is part of the fun...finding fixes is part of the fun. Finding new ways to configure your device and setups is FUN. By asking first you're not participating in the best part of the forum. Questions like...my keyboard is wrong and it doesn't look different or I can't connect to the internet are redundant. Those questions have been asked, answered and fixed OVER-AND-OVER AGAIN....WHY KEEP ASKING?
I'm not anti-noob. I was a noob once and I am still a noob in many ways. I also know that there are some good noobs in the forum. But I'm tired of taking the time to read the threads for critical information and coming across posts for how to install a new theme or where did the backlight on my keyboard go. That's where your user manual or the HTC website comes in. For Cingular people you have a great resource over @ the Cingular forums.
This is a community of like minded technical individuals. This is not HTC tech support or your carriers support. No one here owes you ANYTHING. You install a rom it's on you. If you can't take the responsibility then don't install the rom. It's pretty simple really.
I just had to get that off my chest. I'm sick and cranky but that only played a small role.
Again TIP YOUR CHEF!!!!! and donate to XDA. To all of you that make this a interactive vibrant technical-minded environment THANK YOU!
When I posted this the first time I was trying to prevent what has eventually happened. We've lost one of our genius rom Chefs. So...thanks guys!
Admins....
As for fixing the "noob" issue...I think there is one pretty good solution.
I think the only way to fix such an issue is to either restrict new users from they'll use that period of time to read. Because if they choose to install a rom and they know they can't post a question they'll probably be more apt to read.

I agree with Xultar that a minimum registration period before posting should be enforced, and any BLATANT stupidity should reset the period.
This seems like the best idea. Someone mentioned having a sub forum only accessible by experienced members. Denying read access to the masses however would make this a very exclusive club, which I do feel strongly about.
I am still a relative noob, but found this site and was reading away well before getting my first WM device. It was partly this site that gave me the confidence to try such a device instead of a dumb phone. If I had looked around and seen only the stupid questions, with an inaccessible sub forum that I could not read, then I would have moved on elsewhere and not discovered all the things I have.
I guess it all depends what the key developers here want to achieve. If it is an exclusive club where everyone is a technical whiz then OK I am screwed and will miss this forum. That decision is however entirely theirs to make and no one has the right to tell them what they should or should not do or judge them in any way.
Along with many who do try to avoid asking stupid questions and do try and RTFW first, I can only hope that they choose to try and spread the word so to speak - don't mean to sound all preachy and religious - and that a way can be found to reduce the hassle they get from morons.
I remember seeing one of Sleuth's posts - he said he took no responsibility if anyone chose to use that bit of software and if you bricked your phone it was on you and hard luck. He also added that if that did happen, he would however do his best to help fix any issues. Exactly what I wanted - I knew the risk and choice was mine, but knowing that someone with a lot of knowledge would try and help was very reassuring.
Anyway, thanks to all the deveopers who have helped with the Hermes forum, and to anyone who wants to flame me, just please keep it civil. (There has been rather too much rudeness recently, as tensions seem to have increased... - just my view)

I agree, a "seniors only" forum section would be advantagous but would repell alot of potential members.
I made my guides to help the newbies along the way but i have always said to read the threads and RTFM in order to increase thier knowledge of the various things we do here. Yet still I get very STUPID questions which have been addressed in the guides, why should I write them if people arent going to read them correctly!?!? (rant over hehe) Thankfully on the whole I havent had so many annoyances as jass and the rest have.
I figure this is like a game of lemmings, theres only so many levels you can go through guiding them on the way before you lose your rag and blow them all to hell!!
If people have simply signed up to get thier chosen version of WM6 then piss off thats exactly NOT what we want! ROM chefs dont spend the time to cook these ROMs for people to just download then come back whining when they dont fucntion as they want.

As I've frequented my fair amount of forums, I'd suggest for specific ROM Downloads, or Radio Downloads, Cab files, that users there me be a hidden link and set for users to see if they have a certain amount of posts. Good to that is that you will see Quickly who is simply spamming to get access. Just a thought... I've been able to SuperCid, and Sim Unlock, as well as upgrade to WM6, just by reading several posts and the WIKI. It's really not that difficult.
Even me would not be able to access with some of these restrictions, but that is alright as something like this is very much needed.
ROMS = 50 posts, or active for 8- 12 months
Radio = 40 posts, or active 6 months
CAB files = 25 posts or active 3 months, etc...
Thoughts???

mrvanx said:
If people have simply signed up to get thier chosen version of WM6 then piss off thats exactly NOT what we want! ROM chefs dont spend the time to cook these ROMs for people to just download then come back whining when they dont fucntion as they want.
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I agree - I joined up before you could even SIM unlock without going through EMEI check. I joined up so as to learn about my device and then help spread the knowledge if I could.
It will be harder to sift out those hit and run artists however. Perhaps say a three month delay before you can download or post? removes the quick fix junkies hopefully - although unfortunately many will now be registered already. Perhaps if the post count is under an arbitrary number then the posting delay would come in, but you could PM a moderator to show you had not asked silly questions and get it revoked? Maybe too much work for mods though.

Agreed, I dont think I have been guilty of blatant stupidity, I have bricked my phone once but enough reading around the various forums and its fixed and fine.
If you arent capable of learning for yourself, you have no real business being here, you certainly shouldnt be flashing a £2-300 phone then complaining when it goes tits up.
PhatFarms approach sounds workable though.
Sad to see Jasjamming go, that kind of altruism is pretty rare these days......

chrisjasper said:
Agreed, I dont think I have been guilty of blatant stupidity, I have bricked my phone once but enough reading around the various forums and its fixed and fine.
If you arent capable of learning for yourself, you have no real business being here, you certainly shouldnt be flashing a £2-300 phone then complaining when it goes tits up.
PhatFarms approach sounds workable though.
Sad to see Jasjamming go, that kind of altruism is pretty rare these days......
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hey guys,
im not going, just laying low for a while till things settle down and become a developer forum again, or atleast not a howard forum.

Good luck sport, maybe now you will have more free time and your wife wont be taking your credit cards away......

Great ideas.
Let's just add taking money for reading the posts (and sending money to the posters) and we will kill this forum forever.
The whole Internet idea, if you like it or not, is to share information freely.
There will always be the lamers that will ask their stupid question, and there always be the people that will share their great work with the others.
Anyone (from either side) can join or leave anytime he like.
Jasjamming (The "black guy") did a great job, I relay mean it.
But his leave would not end the great work of this forum.
l hope he will change his mind and decide to continue his work with the others even that some lamers are here.

I think a senior forum would work.
Sure all the ROMs would leak out onto bittorrent etc, but surely that doesn't actually matter? It would be to stop the n00bs moaning about dead phones. if they don't have the rights, they can't post regardless of if they have the ROM or not.

jasjamming said:
hey guys,
im not going, just laying low for a while till things settle down and become a developer forum again, or atleast not a howard forum.
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Click to collapse
At least you can sleep now?
Jas... do you want me to remove your ROM from my mirror? I noticed you removed your own download link, but I don't know where you stand on mirrors?

It's sad to see ppl who don't want to learn join and ask stupid question.
I have joined since 2005 but never post once
Yes! this is my first post!! haha
I want to thank jasjamming for his hard work... and all the ROM chef.

One of the things that has caused an increase in NooB's (in my opionion) is that knowledge of these roms (as well as links) get posted on to howard forums and those same users come rushing in to download the files without paying attention to the fact that this isn't the HTC customer support forum. I agree with what JJ ended up doing only cause I am STILL reading through that forum and have only spotted about 4-6 actual issues the rest are repeats or dumb comments (up to page 42).
Personaly I am far from a developer, but taking the time reading through threads has given me a lot of knowledge about what my device can do.
I like the ideas of having some kind of feature that NooB's can join, and even download, but at their own risk, and after a waiting period can then post etc. even if you make it just for the WM6 forums until a branded official rom is released in q3

Im wondering what the mods opinion is on this issue??
I think probably the best thing to do is as phatfarm suggested, a postcount limit which you must have before you can download an attachment? Thing is the wiki does have the links to the various ROMs so thats the way you get around it.

mrvanx said:
Im wondering what the mods opinion is on this issue??
I think probably the best thing to do is as phatfarm suggested, a postcount limit which you must have before you can download an attachment? Thing is the wiki does have the links to the various ROMs so thats the way you get around it.
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That in conjunction with a 30 day waiting period would work for Noobs.

I totally Agree
I totally agree with you guys. It's sad to see how things have turned out lately. I have been to this site off and on for a few years now (just reading actually), and loved everything that I read. Now in a sense I can be called a noob (I joined in 2/07), but technically I am not. I am coming from the symbian os (Nokia N93) and the minute that I got my windows mobile phone (February of this year - 8525), I joined this site. I read and read and read, never really felt the need to post, because you can find everything you need either by the wiki or just plain clicking on the search button, but I guess most people don't see that button
Anyway, I agree that something should be done to stop what has been happening in the last month, but I don't think that saying we should have a senior member forum only or you have to have this amount of post to get it, will work. Because if you look at JJ's, Kyphurs, LVSW threads, you will see that there were people who had a lot post and even a few junior and senior members who complained and questioned. There are a lot of people who come on and actually read and never post, because they search and figure things out without having to question these great chefs. I personally don't want to have to come on here and began to post everyday to get to junior and/or senior status. I never once complained since being here and believe me, since the release of these WM6 roms (Kyphur's first), I have been flashing 2-3 times per week. So much, my wife has gotten sick of it.
I think, you should continue to let people join and continue to flash, with the understanding that, they are doing everything at their own risk. What I think should be done is, people who have been a member for 3-6 months or less would have to have there post/threads approved by the mod's before it could be posted. Sought of like on myspace when you post your initial pic, they tell you that it is pending approval and that it if approved, it should be posted within 24 hours. They even have a function where you can have it set on your page, that if a person leaves you a comment, it will not post until it has been approved by you. You can either delete or post it. That's how I have my page set up. It would be a lot more work on the mod's, (I don't even know if that is capable), but it would cut back a lot of stress on all of the chefs and even the people who really sit and read/search and get the answers that they need.
What do yo think?

True, this would be much more easier to contain if M$ didn't shut down the ability to put roms on the FTP. People could earn their way in, maybe give access to certain users could be a lot of admin work entering all the compliant users, I would be willing to help with something to that degree, giving time to those that spend countless hours helping out people like me.

JuniorPhatFarm said:
As I've frequented my fair amount of forums, I'd suggest for specific ROM Downloads, or Radio Downloads, Cab files, that users there me be a hidden link and set for users to see if they have a certain amount of posts. Good to that is that you will see Quickly who is simply spamming to get access. Just a thought... I've been able to SuperCid, and Sim Unlock, as well as upgrade to WM6, just by reading several posts and the WIKI. It's really not that difficult.
Even me would not be able to access with some of these restrictions, but that is alright as something like this is very much needed.
ROMS = 50 posts, or active for 8- 12 months
Radio = 40 posts, or active 6 months
CAB files = 25 posts or active 3 months, etc...
Thoughts???
Click to expand...
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Idea sounds good but the noobs do tend to post a lot....
Most of it rubbish or repeated requests over and over and over...........
Another problem is that some of us (like me) have not been on the forums long but are far from noobs because we have only just switched to a hermes from another PDA
Suggest big sign on front page:
THIS IS NOT A SUPPORT SITE

Perhaps longer than thirty days? If you are serious about this stuff then there is sooooo much to read and understand, and then read again. This would hopefully avoid all the
"I just bricked my phone! - HELP ME"
or
"I want Crossbow - where can I download it"
where people do not read first.
Postcount limits might encourage lots of one line no purpose posts, and to sort the good from the bad requires a lot of time and effort from mods.

self inflicted problem?
one of the problems is that most *interesting* posts (new releases, etc) are 10+ pages long and full of pointless posts and cr*p ("can't wait", "downloading now", etc.). reading these posts have become more and more difficult. Doing a search also leads to loads of crappy posts.​
The problem is that the higher your rating / grade / status, the more likely you are to have innondated the forum earlier with pointless posts. A senior member-only forum (or similar) will create more incentives for people to post crappy things until their postcount is high enough... don't think this is the way forward.​
As for removing the link to WMBlackEd2.0 and stop releasing public updates: although i fully respect jasjamming's stand on this, I think it goes against the spirit of this great place. there is a difference between "decommissioning" something, and not "supporting it" anymore. I feel the link to the download should be there for people to install the rom and try it, and future releases made public (if thats what he intended to do in the first place) but the thread should be a closed one: people, download it and support it yourself or don't download it at all if you don't know what you're doing.​
maybe this will deter enough neebies from the site and help make this place the great place it used to be.​
the wiki should be used as front page for the site, with all resources there. I am sure not everyone knows about the wiki, as it is somewhat hidden from the main xda-developer page.​
just my thoughts...​
by the way, I have not posted for a while as i upgraded / downgraded / sorted out issues all by myself after doing loads of reading and searching... but I must admit that only 10% of the posts on the whole site are helpful/meaningful - the rest is an attempt by people to increase their postcount.... and this really puts me off.

about recent hostilities

Sorry this is so long but I feel strongly about this.
I too have few posts as anyone can see. I joined in Sep '06 but have been an avid reader of this forum since my company bought me a Siemens SX66 several years ago.
While I have noticed a marked decline in the quality of posts on this site, I have also seen an amazing increase in the quality of products the senior people have put out.
I think this fact coupled with the rising popularity of Windows Mobile and HTC products is inviting more and more people who would be otherwise too scared to try flashing their expensive gear to feel comfortable enough to give it a go.
Personally, I consider this a hobbyist site and as such, while the senior people will only gain experience and become more adept at their hobby, the noobs will continue to be noobs with the same noob questions, just more of them.
If this site is ever to work as an open hobbyist site, then I think it behooves everyone to step back and take a breath and think about what that goal will require.
1) Seniors - as your skills improve, and you work in this hobby more and more, you will inevitably see more and more of the same questions. Have mercy on the noobs. Truly some are lazy leechers others are perhaps "just getting their feet wet." Everyone has to start somewhere and sometimes that "start" begins with what you may think is a dumb question but is considered valid to the user asking it.
2) Noobs - think about your questions before you ask them. Realize that you are getting the benefits of senior people in this hobby and treat them accordingly. They are doing more to give you free "customer service" than the companies that you gave your money to in the first place.
3) Everyone - I see this problem as having many smaller pieces that perhaps can be improved to help create a better environment.
a) The built-in vBulletin search function sucks arse. Someone posted how to search this site using Google. Perhaps removing the built-in search would get people more familiar with a better search tool and perhaps return more relevant entries.
b) Pay to play - If you are a serious hobbyist then paying a subscription fee to gain access to the hard work others have done should be worth it. You can't or won't pay then you are on your own.
c) Private or Tiered forum for more Senior folks. Entry could be by application/invite allowing a senior moderator to evaluate the applicants quality of participation first. This would also force noobs to start contributing to the group versus just leeching.
Lastly, I have seens several posts where it is obvious that English is not their first or even learned language. I have read the wiki for my device and I have had to read parts several times to understand them. I think for many to whom the language might be a barrier to participation a little extra patience should be granted.
This is an absolutely awesome forum. I have been a benefactor of the work others have done and have several devices that are much more usable, enjoyable and longer lived because of this site. It would be a shame for this forum to crumble under the weight of the hostility that has been present the last few months.
Please, let's all find a way to keep this site useful, friendly and enjoyable for all of its participants.

Some good points but I personally don't have any problems with the search as you have got the options to search the forums, narrowing down your options, and the search this thread to really go deeper.
What I have seen on other forums is - like you say in point c - a lockdown of specific groups until you've got a certain number of posts/been around for a while/been approved so that it can be established that you're familiar with the forum and don't just post crap/leech stuff. Maybe something like that could be employed.
But let's face it, the quality of releases lately has brought far more attention to this forum rather than those who would come here because they knew what they were doing.
Just my thoughts.

If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.

I agree with most of what you say.
I have been on this forum for more than 4 years now and it's been the best forum I have ever used to play around with my "toys".
Noobs are noobs and I even ask silly questions sometimes but I think that this site should remain the same.... It's a gold mine for every person like me wanting to play around and get the best out of his toy.
Long life to this forum

I've been on so many forums for so long and all of the ones that are any good have these very same issues. I recently read a post on a forum of another open source project that I absolutely love (Handbrake) and I think the post you can find here by one of their chief developers has some correlation to this current situation.
If you're too lazy to mosie over to the link...the gist of the post is that open source projects are just that. They are open sourced. That doesn't mean one has carte blanche to ask for help on this or that, to ask for this feature or that feature, to whine and complain, to moan and groan, or to trash somebody's work when it doesn't work like you want it to. It means that a usually small but dedicated group of individuals got together and tried to find a solution to a problem that they had. In the case of this post...it's about open source software...but I think you could say the same thing about ROM cooking here. There is enough information here that if you see or try something that doesn't work for you...try to fix it yourself (or as many have stated...search and see if it's already been fixed by someone). But in the end...I don't think you'll ever stamp out noob crap entirely. Think about it...just walk down the street or turn on your television or flip on your radio...how many idiots do you see or hear? Trust me...we are far outnumbered... But maybe...with a little help...we can at least edumacate em a little bit.

richy240 said:
If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.
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Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
The procedure how to get the info you need:
READ > SEARCH > THINK > POST
Sequence is important in that case!
Same applies to posts made entirely in language other than English > these are useless for vast majority of readers, please consider sending a PM when talking to your nationals.
'nuff said. Long live the XDA-Dev!

I think most of the gripes are about pointless posts eg, "whoohoo!", "cool", "downloading now" that just take up space and make getting to the valuable posts more difficult. Then there are the noob questions that are simple to answer but extremely annoying when repeating many many times. I am a noob to this forum and this phone but not about computers and porgramming. I have also made a donation to jasjamming and wish him the best. My proposal to end some of the madness is to seperate out the type of posts, which seem to be threefold 1. appreciation/useless banter 2. noob questions/simple questions 3. decent and high quality posts that make xda dev a great forum. So one thread about technical stuff that will contain good and useful info and another being the noob questions useless banter. Maybe split the noob questions and appreciation thread and forget about one or the other. This will make the mods life a lot easier and make reading the forum a lot more palatable and organise the threads in a meaningful way. Again sorry to see jasjamming go so soon after joining this forum. Hope he comes back at some stage.

KarhU said:
Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
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Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.

Perhaps creating/moving this and other hardcore forums to private/access controlled area would help.
HoFo is part of the trouble but so is Google and search bots which read public forums. That brings a lot of new readers/noobs.
I've been on sites that have both public and private fora, and the Google/non approved members can't get at the private side which helps a lot.
Just so long as I'm a member of the private side.

Personally i think this forum would work better if there were more forums, say inside the hermes mobile 6 one there was one for each rom. Then if users were encouraged to post new topics for different faults the stupid pointless topics could just be ignored and end up pages back or even deleted while the usefull topics would stay near the top with only relavent content inside.
Anyway thats not for me to decide and just to note i hardly ever feel the need to post cos i've always found a fix for my problems by reading. It might take a few mins longer to find an answer than to start a post but it saves you looking stupid.

I fully support the idea of a subscription to the forums. I'm a member of another subscription-based forum, and it leads to more productive posts and queries, better quality of member base, and an intelligent quorum. That site is $9.95 for a lifetime membership, less a ban of course -- and I find that more than fair.
I don't post much either, I just soak up knowledge here. I try not to ask questions unless absolutely necessary, and instead reap the benefits from the great minds at work..

I love the forum and I think we all agree on this point. I am a moderator on several other PDA related sites. I know first hand how hard it can be to try and get the new folks to use the search function and read The Bold Print but I have found with my experience that using post counts to advance members to hidden forums only invites spam and useless posts. I can also say that wading through 80 sum pages of "thank you's" and "questions that where answered in the first post but I just looked for the link to download and didn't read" posts, is long and quite aggravating. Also trying to use the search function for things like finding a fix to an MMS problem is near to imposable. What I have seen here recently that I like is when something is released like a new WM6 build, there could be 2 treads started one for real questions (Advanced) and issues and one for the new folks to ask there new folk questions (Beginners). Not restricting access to the "Advance" tread, just the ability to post. I don't mind helping the new folks a little because I was new once. I can also say that I read information on this site for 4 days before I attempted to flash a new rom to my device. ( was scared to death ) and some of the questions the new folks asked, I also wanted the answer too. Lots of times some senior member would help them with a link or advice and this helped me also. I think if anything you should have to be a member here for say 3 or 4 days before you are allowed to post. Then maybe a week or two before you could post in the "Advanced" threads. This would hopefully send more new folks eager to find the answers to there questions, into the forums using the search and reading the comment of others a little more closely.
Just my thoughts
JD

I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!

Thanks button?
I will now throw my 2 cents in as well. I too have not posted much, but have managed to upgrade the ROM on my Hermes a few times without having to seek "professional help". I think we all appreciate the effrorts of the few that provide the rewards for the many. I used to be a SuperMod on a SonyEricsson modding site (before I found the Windows Mobile joy).
I have seen a "Thanks Button" used quite effectively - I think it is in the newer releases of vBulletin. It cuts a lot of the crap. Also, I would support a "no post for 10 days" and "read only, except by invitation" threads.
If you can express gratitude simply, have to read and learn for 10 days (and you KNOW they won't wait to try the flash) and get to read what the Seniors and Mods are saying and download the fruits of their labors, but cannot interfere, I think that would raise the quality of the experience for everyone. Sorry I went so long - I love XDA and want to see it continue to dominate.
PS: It is funny to see someone with the nick "poopmongrel" lamenting the low quality of the forum participants - ;-) That isn't meant to be mean, just funny!

richy240 said:
Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.
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Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.

chenga said:
Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.
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I don't know... Probably not. I was really just talking out of my ass. But when someone answers like that, they obviously shouldn't expect an accurate answer. If someone said that to me after answering a question, I wouldn't give them the time of day.

Wasn't everybody a n00b at one time?
It would be a shame to 'close the forum down' to noobs. There's a first for everything. And -yes!- noobs can ask stupid questions, but you could just ignore them. I've read some good suggestions reading the threads complaining about the newbies on this forum. ("thank you button", "noob area" and "a timeslot between downloading/registering" eg.)
Without this forum I'm pretty sure my Hermes would still run on WM5 since there's no real alternative to this forum. The senior members and chefs provide information (at least I) could not find anywhere else. Like many junior members (I guess) I spend the most time reading and not posting. Reading and learning. So getting 'senior' by just posting will not improve the forum quality.
To bad some (a) chef(s) are just so fed up they don't share their work anymore, but I can understand. People should be more gratefull for their hard work. Especially if you do not have the skills to cook a rom yourself!

I think the problem is more than just asking questions, even basic ones. It is the attitude of some users who seem to expect the contributors of the ROMs to support them. As a software developer myself, I've experienced many such types who think that just because they downloaded your software for free, they are entitled to your support. I believe it is this sort of "stupidity" and arrogance that really gets the goat of those who work hard to contribute something.
In this case, the fault isn't merely one of tolerance, it is one of attitude. If a guy comes in and gets free stuff from you, and then turns back and demand you fix their machine, while bad-mouthing you - surely you can see how this will make the whole enterprise un-worthwhile for the contributor. Not only are they not getting any tangible remuneration for their work, they are now having to put up with such arrogance. Now, who in their right mind would want to continue contributing in a community that is unappreciative (though arguably there will always be those who are appreciative).
The key then is to keep the unappreciative out until they learn some respect and appreciation. When they learn that what they're getting is not a right but a privilege, out of the goodwill of the contributors. If they are not happy, they can go elsewhere and not use the product. If they're sincere, then they should make the effort to learn. Regardless of the complaints of how hard it is to use the search function (how hard can it be??). In this case the onus is NOT on the contributors but on the end-user.
I see this kind of scenario happening:-
1. Newbie hears about WM6 and thinks its so cool.
2. Pesters friend for link and ends up here.
3. Get excited at the level of activity and prospect of getting something for free.
4. Get frustrated because they don't know where to start.
5. Post basic questions about which is the best ROM etc.
6. Decides to go with the "best" ROM.
7. Bricks the machine or finds a bug or loses some features.
8. Get frustrated and angry and vents at the ROM chefs (or Olipro.
9. Tries to read site for the first time but too lazy to work through the posts (it does take time but that is expected.)
10. Pester others to help them unbrick their machine.
11. Unbricks machine and starts again with another ROM variant.
12. Cycle repeats itself.
I'm not saying that all newbies are like this. Many lurkers actually read through all the related posts. The problem we're facing has to do with those who want the benefits without having to spend the time reading and researching and learning some general knowledge about the ROM flashing process. To make things worse, these same types usually have attitudes of self-righteous indignation which makes them a pain to tolerate. This is the kind of person you want to keep out of the community. IMO.
Daniel

swtaltima said:
I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to agree here. What ticks me off is the fact that alot of people here come in, flash a ROM without reading or researching then DEMAND a solution...not once...not twice...but sometimes three and four times in a short time span.
I have no right to DEMAND someone to fix something that either (1) I caused; (2) I didn't read enough to see that it was a known issue and flashed anyway; (3) a known issue with an open source software on a DEVELOPER's sight with I am NOT a developer.
What I see the issue to be is ingratitude, sense of entitlement and tender emotions. If you're feelings are going to get hurt then you shouldn't post. The developers here don't owe anybody here a thing. Plain and simple.
Politically correct? No. Do I care? No.
Jim

I Love Xda-developers.com!
Spread The Peace!

A complaint about this section of XDA-DEVS. (Development and Hacking)

quite simply, the the 'development and hacking' section of xda-devs has a cluelessn00b to developer ratio of about 1000-1. I understand that everyone is excited about some of the stuff that goes on in that section, but its bad for several reasons:
firstly, how can any dev communicate when people are continuously rudely demanding information (in broken english or text speek) which is on the first page of a thread or has been communicated several times since then.
secondly, its not safe for the cluelessn00bs... if i was a bit more evil, i could easily make an app to kill to boot loader and pretend that its the latest manila4d or whatever. real devs would probably think about it before running it, clueless noobs would dive right in and we'd have a wave of bricked devices.
i know its hard to fix this kind of issue, and this post is not meant as any disrespect to any mod or admin of xd.com (its clearly disrespect to the cluelessb00ns who cant read the domain name, the forum section nor the first post)
the only suggestions i can personally make are an allow list on threads - managed by the thread owner (and the ability to pass ownership of the first thread would make sense too) or maybe to post in dev+hacking you have to be a senior member (having said that, ive seen some senior members be as clueless and the n00bs)
i beg that some consideration is placed on this, because, in all reality, ive given up on the manila3d thread. theres just no point in me battling the waves of idiocy any longer. the chance of me actually developing? pffft.

It saddens me
I was a bit disappointed hearing this from a marvelous developer such as you are but I believe you are not evil because you have tried your best to bring us the best out of our devices
Please do reconsider...

I hear what you're saying, mate. I lurked around this place for over six months before making my first post, just reading up and learning. People don't want to read anymore...they think that this place is the instant free tech support center.

djboo, I don't agree! Most of the threads in D&H subforum are developer or constructive threads. This is not an easy thing to accomplish, and I think it shows the quality of the forum. You can't disable access to "noobs", developers make their stuff for everyone, not just other developers or experienced people! I'm glad if other people like something I make.

Partially agree...
djboo said:
quite simply, the the 'development and hacking' section of xda-devs has a cluelessn00b to developer ratio of about 1000-1. I understand that everyone is excited about some of the stuff that goes on in that section, but its bad for several reasons:
firstly, how can any dev communicate when people are continuously rudely demanding information (in broken english or text speek) which is on the first page of a thread or has been communicated several times since then.
secondly, its not safe for the cluelessn00bs... if i was a bit more evil, i could easily make an app to kill to boot loader and pretend that its the latest manila4d or whatever. real devs would probably think about it before running it, clueless noobs would dive right in and we'd have a wave of bricked devices.
i know its hard to fix this kind of issue, and this post is not meant as any disrespect to any mod or admin of xd.com (its clearly disrespect to the cluelessb00ns who cant read the domain name, the forum section nor the first post)
the only suggestions i can personally make are an allow list on threads - managed by the thread owner (and the ability to pass ownership of the first thread would make sense too) or maybe to post in dev+hacking you have to be a senior member (having said that, ive seen some senior members be as clueless and the n00bs)
i beg that some consideration is placed on this, because, in all reality, ive given up on the manila3d thread. theres just no point in me battling the waves of idiocy any longer. the chance of me actually developing? pffft.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I partially second that, although I think that membership seniority based on number of posts isn't the best practice if to implement what you proposed. As I, for example, don't post a lot but read the forum for almost 2 years, and have dev. background (and I guess there a lot of others like that), there are some that post a lot of questions and/or comments that are not that dev. inclined or do not have the knowledge (yet?).
I do see your point here, and me too stopped following the TF3D thread after tons of non development related issues. Maybe putting Dev/Hack as read-only and people would have to ask a mod / admin for posting rights on it? And then giving full access to the Q&A thread / new section? So devs. could enjoy it more, general community could still get the latest (downloading newer version from Dev/Hack, etc.) and get questions answered in an orderly fashion... BUT, what with those nice little apps people write and post here from time to time, that come from someone that is not THAT involved in the community? They'd simply go elsewhere, and I guess this IS the most valuable asset the community have. With all due respects to the "regulars", I think those that pass by once in a while and contribute are
invaluable too. Guess it's the price to pay for innovation, having to sort through the non-sense to find the gems.
In the end, I think the problem here are the filters we use. Maybe we just need to find a better way to organize the data here, so it's easier to follow... What I do hope, is that whatever is done, doesn't change the essence of this great oasis...

I kinda agree with ur second part but i'm sure someone would have told the mods if it was a "dangerous app", rite?

I am a noob
Ok, I understand quite well what you are saying. Being a noob myself, i am learning as much as i can, slowly but I hope surely.
I try to read thoroughfully each thread that I have interest in.
The only regret I have is the search engine. For example, I'm still searching for a thread where it explains how to modify spb mobile shell files to have PI8 as the default calendar. I know the intel is there somewhere, but I'm having a hard time to find the right post/thread.
So maybe one of the possibilities would be to enhance a little the search engine or the way results are shown => enlighten the searched words...
Please reconsider, don't be to hard on the noobs, I think we aren't so bad, some of us want to learn.
And thank you very much for your patience, talent and ideas.

I do agree too that there is too much "I like that.... whats it for?" when a lot of the time the developers do put the information in their posts. BUT..... sometimes these STUPID, RANDOM comments do contribute by putting an idea out there to be expanded on. Sometimes they provide needed feedback and ideas.
If you restrict access to these areas then you may as well shut down the site.
This is a forum and as such there will ALWAYS be those annoying clueless posts but you have to remember that you were once there yourself...
You have to make allowances for those members who DON'T speak english very well as they may be very tech savy but just have difficulty putting their ideas down in English. They may actually give something back..
And thats my 2 cents

hi all
in fact there was a section missing , here , for asking
seems they are doing something very soon , reading the sticky thread
Here
and so the D&H will come back to be free for real dev

djboo perhaps you are a little hasty in this thread and I agree with some of what you say, however, alot of ppl respect everything you and other developers give us immensely! without ppl like yourself alot of us would never use Windows Mobile devices, instead following the masses of other "mind washed" CrApple iphone uses, anyway please don't stop sharing just because a few mindless teenagers didn't get enough Oxygen at birth!

people make their own choices. if you post something which might trigger a brick and someone uses it you can blame him for either trying something without investigating first or for just being plain stupid (depending on the circumstances).
the fact that this section is a target for terrorist idiots action isn't different from any other internet or real forum in the world. people tend to go wherever's warmer and cuddle there.. and try to suck every little ounce of good they can find in that place.
that's why you can find thousands of stupid posts and questions instead having a clear, professional section. not using search, not being able to read rules before posting.. that's international.
as for restricting... I must disagree to the proposal. it would require more work from the dev to find the members he'd like to share this with instead of just posting his work. and being a senior member on this forum means NOTHING considering it depends on the number of posts you have rather on how long you've been around or how much you have contributed to this community.
but what i do suggest is, that a member will have to be at least X months old in this forum to post. this will make people use search and learn before they come up with stupid questions.
cheers.

As a link above has p[pointed out, there is a new forum coming for questions. If you really have a problem with some of this noob questions, PM a mod/report the post.
Also, if you want to post a thread as an announcement, rather than a questions/answers thread, PM a mod to get it locked.
If you don't let new members post, they will never find anything out.
One final thing: you yourself have posted this in an area in which it doesn't belong. It has nothing to do with Development or Hacking, it's about what happens in this forum. As such, I'm going to move the thread to the "About xda-devs" section.

Thread's like this always remind me this post by Kyphur: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
Ta
Dave

i dont beleive personally in censorship of anysort. seriously. im like a big ass hippy and everything.
but some of the people in the developers section of this site have barely developed full sentances let alone developed on an 'xda' phone. the floods of the same people asking the same questions over and over again is just disheartening.
maybe just the ability for the thread owner to delete posts would help. since about post 40 on the manila3d thread, theres been...ooh. 7 maybe 8 relevant posts? the rest have been 'my device wont turn off' which is answered in the first post.
meh. maybe we should just open up a new thread for the real developing. disguise the topic. then we might get some work done.

djboo said:
i dont beleive personally in censorship of anysort. seriously. im like a big ass hippy and everything.
but some of the people in the developers section of this site have barely developed full sentances let alone developed on an 'xda' phone. the floods of the same people asking the same questions over and over again is just disheartening.
maybe just the ability for the thread owner to delete posts would help. since about post 40 on the manila3d thread, theres been...ooh. 7 maybe 8 relevant posts? the rest have been 'my device wont turn off' which is answered in the first post.
meh. maybe we should just open up a new thread for the real developing. disguise the topic. then we might get some work done.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you want closed developing, why not do it via e-mail, or PM?

DaveShaw said:
Thread's like this always remind me this post by Kyphur: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
Ta
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that man said it better than i ever could.

l3v5y said:
If you want closed developing, why not do it via e-mail, or PM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i dont want closed developing. i want developing. currently the main thread in question is more like doing lines for teacher. once a day, log in, "HTC-CA drivers disable shutdown, TF3D uses those drivers. use manilatoggle to disable TF3D before you power down" x10

djboo said:
i dont beleive personally in censorship of anysort. seriously. im like a big ass hippy and everything.
but some of the people in the developers section of this site have barely developed full sentances let alone developed on an 'xda' phone. the floods of the same people asking the same questions over and over again is just disheartening.
maybe just the ability for the thread owner to delete posts would help. since about post 40 on the manila3d thread, theres been...ooh. 7 maybe 8 relevant posts? the rest have been 'my device wont turn off' which is answered in the first post.
meh. maybe we should just open up a new thread for the real developing. disguise the topic. then we might get some work done.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
djboo... I understand where you are coming from, but I also do not totally agree with your comments. Although I may be a noob, I do have a lot ov experiance in computing. I do not have the time to develop of backwords engineer apps. I wish I did. I would enjoy doing it. I agree with you that the thread owner should be able to delete posts that are off topic, but I think the thread owner should also move a question with an answer to the first page if they see multiple posts. This would make it easier to find some of the common answers. I agree that users should use the search, but it does not always return what you are looking for. I have made a post and been berated for not using the search (when in fact I had). I truly enjoy the work you and the rest of the developers are doing. Without you guys, my phone would be quite boring, but because of the work done on this site, I am quite happy with my phone and how it operates. I have friends that think I am a god because I help them with thier phone, but I would not be able to do half of what I do if it were not for the work done here. I hope you go back to work on Manilla3D. We noobs need the knowledge you provide. As for off topic posts such as the nes on the Manilla3D thread, a lot of them go on due to people endulging these people by answering thier post or flaming them. I have seen senior members do this and all it does is fuel a lot of these guys. Ignore them! Geez, I have had my ligidimate questions ignored, why not ignore the non-ligitimate ones? Anyway, I will get off my soap box. I appreciate everthing all of you developers do and I hope one day I will have the time to contribute to the development community. Take care.

It is possible to set up a "thread owner" or thread based permission system but it would take some work and more importantly a Vbulletin developer to iron out the issues that may come up.
I have tried it on one other site but it was a little difficult. Of course I think a more productive idea is to have developer groups. Vbulletin has a group system built in as of 3.7 and it allows for comments and such. In 3.8 it will allow groups to have their own message boards. With a little help you can set up 3.7 to also have message boards controlled by the owner of the group.

DaveShaw said:
Thread's like this always remind me this post by Kyphur: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
Ta
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
djboo said:
that man said it better than i ever could.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup that's why it's in my signature under XDA Mantra.

[Q] Ultimate Noob Rooting Thread

So I am considering rooting my phone, and I have been poking around and noticed all of the "essential" rooting threads are ages old, I have had my evo 4g for a week, and coming from a noob considering rooting I have a few questions (secondly im sure most of my questions just involve digging, but I am the kind of learner who needs to see everything in one or two places, not 20 or 30 different ones) so here goes my questions...
1. Why should I root, what are the advantages
2. What is the difference between deoxed and odexed
3. what is the step by step guide to rooting (im running snow leopard, but can get access to windows, would prefer to do it in snow leopard)
4. What are roms, kernals...other lingo and definations I need to or should know before rooting
5. what does rooting disable
and 6. Whats the coolest thing i can do once I am rooted
A special thanks to any one willing to take there time and explain these items to me rather then link me to another thread.

you seem like you haven't done any research what so ever.

What OS did you come from?
Yeah, it's kind of important to be willing to read a LOT. Or you probably shouldn't even bother. If you don't wanna read and really examine, then I would just stay stock. Evo is a fine phone stock.
'What's the 'coolest'thing you can do?'
(Aside from reading), I would say, that would be up to you what's coolest.
ROM is read only memory. Kernel, as I understand it, is the resource your ROM relies on to run, and greatly impacts battery life, and various functionalities. And allows for overclocking/undervolting, etc.
Root would disable/disallow you from accepting OTAs directly from Sprint

Kornsaq said:
you seem like you haven't done any research what so ever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have done some reading on it, just as i said everything is spread out, and I have a very difficult time combining stuff from different areas, I am currently using osx, and all of the noob rooting instructions im able to find need files to be modified in windows/linux (osx is unix based)

Read the sticky thread at the top of this Q&A forum. The thread is called "Common misconceptions and useful information." ricsim included some really good pointers at the top of the thread and I have my own contributions at the bottom of the thread. I know you'll probably be a little annoyed by the fact that you have to find your own answers but it's critical that you learn what you're doing to your phone and why. Unless you do you'll turn into the next user who gets flamed for posting something similar to "OMG WHRE r Da GOOGLKE appzzzz" or anything resembling that.
What I'm trying to say is the rest of us learned by researching and we have faith that you can too.
Good luck.

beatblaster said:
Read the sticky thread at the top of this Q&A forum. The thread is called "Common misconceptions and useful information." ricsim included some really good pointers at the top of the thread and I have my own contributions at the bottom of the thread. I know you'll probably be a little annoyed by the fact that you have to find your own answers but it's critical that you learn what you're doing to your phone and why. Unless you do you'll turn into the next user who gets flamed for posting something similar to "OMG WHRE r Da GOOGLKE appzzzz" or anything resembling that.
What I'm trying to say is the rest of us learned by researching and we have faith that you can too.
Good luck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since i posted this, I have been doing some clicking around, and im very very slowly understanding stuff, i will read through the mentioned thread, and the reason im asking these questions is an attempt to help me understand some more of this, i really dont want to risk bricking my phone (however low the risk is) with out knowing what im doing

Growing animosity in the HD2 forums

Let me start by saying that this is just a moan thread, and I don't ask or expect that anything comes from it other than me getting something off my chest and seeing what others think.
I'm a very regular reader and contributor in the HD2 forum, as I have been for over a year now. I like the fact that it's such a busy forum as this obviously means we have a larger resource pool and get answers to issues a lot quicker than a more sparsely populated forum. There is, however, a down-side to this as well. More people does mean more help, but it also means more idiots.
Unfortunately, there's a growing gang of members in the HD2 forum that seem to thrive on posts such as...
"Search for the answer, *****"
or...
"Are you a total retard?"
Now I know that some people ask what a lot of us feel are dumb questions, and a LOT of people are guilty of posting questions without searching thoroughly first, therefore repeating threads, but it seems to be becoming a sport to deal with them with stronger and stronger animosity.
I personally have been guilty of posting "This is the wrong forum" or "This has been answered - please search", but the recent number of similar posts has made me rethink the situation.
First of all, just insulting someone is point-blank out-of-order, and I usually tend to report such posts and hope the mods agree and deal with the individual in question. So that's that done. Now we're left with the "already answered" posts.
This is all hypothetical, so don't do the following search and tell me I was wrong, okay
Say I searched for "bluetooth android not working" and didn't find anything that suited my situation and decided to open a thread. I start one called "bluetooth android not working" and explain my problem. UserXXX comes along and says "This has been answer like a million times. Use the search function"
Now let's go 2 weeks into the future when someone else has the exact same problem. They type into the search "bluetooth android not working" and they find my thread. "Great!" they think, till they read the thread. It's of no use to them whatsoever. So they start a new thread. Guess what - UserXXX comes along and says "This has been answered a million times! I'm getting sick of telling people to search!!!"
This happens every 2 weeks, with different users having the same problems and not finding a solution, therefore posting a new thread.
Okay. Here I have to say that none of the above users searched well enough - that is a valid point, and cannot be changed. By the time they start a new thread it's too late to simply tell them this.
But now, 6 months down the line, we have 12 threads that are titled "bluetooth android not working", and not one of them has an actual answer in it. By this point, the forum is becoming pretty pointless.
All it would take is for Mr.Genius-at-searching UserXXX to have searched, as he claims is easy to do, find a link and then post whatever he wants, with the link at the end of it...
"Here's a link, you **** tard. Learn to search. I can do it, so I have the right to tell you to do it. Want proof I can search? Here it is...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/noonardfoundananswer.php"
Basically, people giving it "do a search if you want answers" should help out new users in doing so. Do a search and maybe tell them what your search criteria was. Maybe they didn't know what NAND was when they were asking about flashing Android to replace WM6.5. Maybe they misspelt "blootueth". They need help, not an arrogant waste of space that generates just as much garbage post in the forum, but with an added side-dish of anger.
Finally, I know that we shouldn't spoon-feed people, as they will never learn to do things themselves. What I am suggesting is that if someone knows how to do something and they find someone who clearly doesn't, then they should help them, rather than just act like an idiot.
Phew. Rant over
Edit: Incidentally, apologies to those who've pointed out that it's not just the HD2 forums that are like this. I didn't mean to imply that they're the only place it happens. I just can't talk from experience for any of the other forums.

Completely agree.
This is something I try to do now (having flamed and abused in the past ) for the reasons you have stated above.
Take this post for example, I even provided a link.
Why goto the effort of answering a post if you are not going to provide an answer.
As for "don't ask or expect that anything comes from it". I would hope others who don't provide usfull replies read this and take something away from it.
Dave

DaveShaw said:
Completely agree.
This is something I try to do now (having flamed and abused in the past ) for the reasons you have stated above.
Take this post for example, I even provided a link.
Why goto the effort of answering a post if you are not going to provide an answer.
As for "don't ask or expect that anything comes from it". I would hope others who don't provide usfull replies read this and take something away from it.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the comments Dave. Glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks like this.

I do get abrupt with people but I also help alot, hence why I have 50 thanks.
I really do not mind helping people but what I cant stand is lazyness. Its one thing been new to teh subject and not knowing something and then asking for help but its another to simply not even bother checking a forum stickies or at least doing a simple search before creating a topic that has already been created.
On some occasions its because the subject is a hard one to search and filter out but on allot of occasions you know its simply because they have not bothered and thought they would just create a topic and let other people do work for them, That is what I cant stand.
Although I have stopped been really abrupt I will still not answer these people but instead choose to make sure they are aware that its not on.
Yes you can say that we was all new once and some people need their arse wiping for them but that is absolutely no excuse. When I first joined this forum I did allot of reading and learned allot of stuff in process, some info I didnt need at the time but later helped me with other stuff and resulted in me not needing to clone topics or ask questions that have already been asked and answered.

Completely agree with what the OP is trying to say.

TheATHEiST said:
I do get abrupt with people but I also help alot, hence why I have 50 thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are the from people you helped, or from people who liked your quips? (j/k)
TheATHEiST said:
Yes you can say that we was all new once and some people need their arse wiping for them but that is absolutely no excuse. When I first joined this forum I did allot of reading and learned allot of stuff in process, some info I didnt need at the time but later helped me with other stuff and resulted in me not needing to clone topics or ask questions that have already been asked and answered.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the point John is making, is that the unhelpful replies limit users ability to search. For example, searching for "Help Flashing Evo" will find threads with the answer "Use Search", (recursion ) hence annoying the user and causing them to post instead of carrying on.
Users who don't bother reading/searching are (and probably always will be) a problem, hence svetius's change requiring 10 post to use Development forums; we need to find more efficient ways to help them
Dave

thank you very much!!! i have been thinking about this topic a long by myself, but i didnt dare to mention it with my low post counter.
I got my HD2 only 1 month ago and its my first WM device. I am very good with all technical devices, but it was still very hard for me to find the right answers.
As i just bricked my nokia phone during an update i wanted to make sure to not brick my HD2..
its hard to get all the information, and i was thinking about creating a webpage - which really expalains idiot-proof how everything works.

oida_oida said:
its hard to get all the information, and i was thinking about creating a webpage - which really expalains idiot-proof how everything works.
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The guides and the wikis + plethora of resources are already in place especially for establishes devices like the Leo. The only issues is the "newer" crowd is lazy and does not search and hence hundreds of threads asking questions to which answers have already been mentioned sometime somewhere on the forum. That's not the only issue- the problem is that these newer people won't be patient or even post in the correct place.
For eg. I have seen threads about Android development being posted in Win D&H.
We have to live & deal with it, it's a side effect of growth and progress.
JM2C's.

There seems to be a significant amount of animosity of late in all forums - not just HD2. I'm not certain as to why this is, all I do know is that I find unacceptable. As moderators, we spend more time cleaning up flame & troll posts than working on our own community contributions.
My observations:
XDA is about bringing together folks who have similar passions about mobile technology. As such, I expect a certain degree of maturity and professionalism from all members during their "stay" on this forum.
Responses that provide helpful and constructive information as opposed to "use the search", "try Google", "it's broken", "fix it", etc. help guide the thread back to topic. Here's a few examples:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9929554&postcount=4
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10749020&postcount=7
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10097254&postcount=22
There is absolutely no reason to respond in a rude tone, make someone feel stupid, or disrespect a member trying to offer something back to the community ... it is not constructive and serves no purpose. Members are never forced to frequent a thread on this forum and as previously stated, members should choose to move on instead of posting inflammatory comments.
Shortly after the launch of a well advertised mobile device, there is an influx of new members. Most all carriers and device manufacturers send their customers to XDA for technical assistance. Place a call to your carrier technical support department, it won't take long before the support representative instructs you to: "check out XDA, they have tons of information on how to fix that ...".
Most of newcomers who frequent the site are under the misconception that XDA is an extension of their carrier technical support department. This becomes apparent when I read posts complaining about issues with features or demanding an answer to their problem. As most of these newcomers are less technical, they lack the expertise required to assess the problem and determine the correct terminology to use in a search.
The current consumer model is not conducive to holding carrier and device manufacturers accountable. The current marketing paradigm is about convenience and how the one device that "does it all" is here. Most consumers buy into the paradigm and spend little to no time researching before the purchase. Once the device is purchased and fails to meet expectations, they simply go out and purchase something else.
vBulletin Search is horrible and unless one has a PhD in XDA Google Search, the likelihood of finding a meaningful answer in a billion threads is well ... challenging at best.
There are other observations that I have made; but the ones above are IMHO, some of the key issues and why I prefer to take a less aggressive approach when moderating newcomer posts.
Regards,

Those observations are very accurate and sums up the issue well, Hilaireg.

Thanks to all for giving your two cents on this rather important issue. The problems that we currently face are a product of people not having a sense of community. As hilaireg stated, many come here for a "quick fix" simply because the CSR at their company had no idea what to do and decided to direct you here to see if maybe you could fix the issue yourself.
Admittedly, there are search engines that are somewhat better than vB's, but the point that the OP is making is 100% dead on target. By playing "smarta$$" and replying "search, you n00b" instead of providing any meaningful reply will do nothing else than dilute the results of your search. Having said this, people complaining that the search does not work, 8 times out of 10, are expecting the right answer to pop up in the first result from the thread, and will probably give up if by the second or third link they have not found anything. Patience is a virtue, and people looking for knowledge should expect for this to come at the price of a little effort.

I went from a $10 clamshell dumdum phone for 6 years, whambang straght into my Leo. I am over 36 & under 38 years old.
It took me 3 months of fumbling around getting peeved over constant resetting and crashes.
Not once did I bother anyone here with a question that with a bit of hands on do-it-yourself would eventually learn on my own.
However, I had Tmo tech. on speed dial...
I am not new to the forum game though...check my thread "Throttled". lol.
anywho, my phone will remain stock with tweaks, skins, and sweet theme action.
This is an awesome piece of awesome, but NOT for the severely impatient or timid.
Thank you XDA for doing the absolute maximum in making my leo purrrr!!!!
and moan threads are for sissies btw...lol.

@ hilaireg & egzthunder1
I understand and agree to some extent your points but the fact of the matter is that something really needs to be done to halt or slow down the amount of dupe posts or other that are polluting/diluting the forum.
I'm going to be honest I dont really have any problems using vB search and usally find the info I need. PLUS much rather find the info myself because it also makes me learn other stuff in process that I may need in future that I wouldnt usually learn if I had just gone and asked somebody for specific info.
Here are the steps I take to find the relevant info...
Check stickies
Check latest topics
Use search function (topic titles)
Use search function (topic content)
Then if I dont find any info I want I begin to start a new thread and take note of the "similar threads" function before posting. If all else fails I use google.
The problem is that 99% of newbies dont do any of this or very little to look for what they need info/help on, They just rather create a topic and let the info be brought to them, which is fine but majority of questions are already answered in stickies or tuts/guides which are easy to find.
I really think that we need to have a 100 post limit on the dev section this will reduce by allot the amount of spam we get, maybe not specifically for replying to topics but certainly for creating them. And also maybe a FAQ sticky in each Q&A forum with links to most asked ones.

TheATHEiST said:
The problem is that 99% of newbies dont do any of this or very little to look for what they need info/help on, They just rather create a topic and let the info be brought to them, which is fine but majority of questions are already answered in stickies or tuts/guides which are easy to find.
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The newbies aren't the only problem.
*You* yourself recently lit into a newbie in a very uncalled for fashion. With your post and the followups to your post, you helped muddy the waters for finding actual solutions.
There are solutions:
1) the OPs start updating their original posts with solutions to outstanding problems. The search engine is only as good as the queries being put into it, and as more "SEARCH DA TRED NEB3!!!" responses fill the thread, that makes actually finding the solution all the more difficult.
2) Regulars stop flaming the newbies. When I first started posting here I got a number of @ss**** responses to reasonable questions. If regulars behave like that, what type of newbs do you think you're attracting?

Lets not make this a 'he said/she said' or a pointing-fingers thread.
For a solution to the problem at hand, when we see such behavior, we can easily rectify it - as the OP stated - by posting the answer to questions instead of telling the person to search for the answer.
Now this does also bring a 'double-edge' scenario: This may give the n00bs the idea that it is okay to post a question without searching. But this is already happening.
So if we at least cut the amount of posts about the same topic down, there will be less of what bothers the senior members. And we won't have to suggest 'Search the forums for the answer.'
As a possible-soon-to-be-moderator of the Herald forums, I promise to do this myself. Hopefully, we can all agree to do the same as Senior Members of this community. I also don't expect anyone who has less than a hundred posts to do this, but, hopefully a trend will catch on.

apallohadas said:
The newbies aren't the only problem.
*You* yourself recently lit into a newbie in a very uncalled for fashion. With your post and the followups to your post, you helped muddy the waters for finding actual solutions.
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Hey I didnt say they was the only problem, hence "99%".
If we keep re-iterating the same answers we are just going round in circles. The ONLY way to solve this is to somehow halt/slow them from asking the same repeat questions in first place, not just keep providing the answers every time they decide to be lazy and ask the same question and not just that they also ask them by creating a topic in the wrong places.

It's not just the HD2 forum, it's the same in the Desire one too (and yes, I'm guilty of a bit of flaming but some people just ask EXTREMELY dumb questions and even when you answer continue to ignore you so they deserve it)
Rule 1 of the forum is to search and for those who haven't even done that they deserve it too. But to those who say they've actually tried and not found anything I'll try and be helpful

These people just need to learn the proper way to ask a question. If you want a response from the power-hungry people who reply with insults, you must phrase it properly.
Instead of saying: "How do you get bluetooth working in Android NAND?"
They need to say: "Android on the HD2 SUCKS because bluetooth doesn't work right!"
What you will then see is these jerks flocking to prove the OP wrong, all while answering his question. 90% of the time, it works every time.

But if we do keep reiterating the answers to properly asked questions, that makes the search engine more useful for those that do use it. The answer doesn't get buried in 'you suk n00b' responses.
If a person feels they can't respond without insults, then they should have the self control not to respond right?

IMO the ones with knowledge need self control and should control their temper; and be helping ( luckily for us most are ).
And the n00bs need to know the forum decorum and manners better.
And the minimum posts requirement to post in dev. section is a small but very important step in the right direction, I recall when I signed up on XDA for months I was just reading and posting. And posted only in the Q&A threads or threads related to fashing/ROMs ( when I needed help with that); but these days the people won't have the patience to do that.
Either we need to vomit it out on them or somehow teach them the old school method of search + posting on right threads/forums.