Develop Bugs

App idea, need help starting. :)

Since there isn't a SAPI that's accessible for windows mobile developers, I was disappointed. I just got a Samsung Omnia and I'm quite enthralled by it. I want to write an application that does speech recognition and text to speech.
eSpeak is a program easily ported. It's been done and comes with a how-to guide for compiling for windows mobile 6.x. As far as text to speech goes, then, I'm not too worried (it will be fun developing a voice.)
I got pocketsphinx to compile. The project settings says it was compiled for an x86 machine. Do I have to compile it for the ARM architecture, or do I just need to compile the final application for the ARM architecture, with the pocketsphinx dll somehow baked into the end result?
Also, I was wondering if anyone could point me to a beginner level tutorial for developing applications on windows mobile. I'm brand spanking new to developing on mobile devices, and while the language specific stuff is old hat, there's lots of transitional stuff I need to learn. Any links are appreciated. I'd like to not brick my Omnia by doing something silly, so I'll be developing strictly on my desktop until I'm satisfied with the safety of whatever it is I'm developing.
Thanks, awesome community here!

Hey there JR. As far as WinMo development, here's a list of the basic tools you need:
1. Visual Studio 2008 Professional SP1 + patches (or VS 2010 which is in beta now)
2. Windows Mobile 6 Professional and Standard Software Development Kits Refresh (device and cellular emulators, some samples, download from msdn.microsoft.com)
3. Windows Mobile 6.5 Developer Tool Kit (6.5 emulator images, gestures API etc - also at msdn.microsoft.com)
Assuming you will be writing managed code, the most widely used language is C#.
As far as books, unfortunately WInMo is not getting much love these days (hopefully this will change with WinMo 7) so there's little new but the best book out there IMO is "Microsoft Mobile Development Handbook" by Andy Wigley (2007).
The good news is that there's a plethora of on-line material, easily accessible from the aggregate Search screen in Visual Studio. Sites like codeguru.com, social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/windowsmobiledev, www.c-sharpcorner.com, www.codeproject.com, 4guysfromrolla.com etc are your best friends!
I hope this gets you started! Best of luck with the project.

JRowe47 said:
Since there isn't a SAPI that's accessible for windows mobile developers, I was disappointed. I just got a Samsung Omnia and I'm quite enthralled by it. I want to write an application that does speech recognition and text to speech.
eSpeak is a program easily ported. It's been done and comes with a how-to guide for compiling for windows mobile 6.x. As far as text to speech goes, then, I'm not too worried (it will be fun developing a voice.)
I got pocketsphinx to compile. The project settings says it was compiled for an x86 machine. Do I have to compile it for the ARM architecture, or do I just need to compile the final application for the ARM architecture, with the pocketsphinx dll somehow baked into the end result?
Also, I was wondering if anyone could point me to a beginner level tutorial for developing applications on windows mobile. I'm brand spanking new to developing on mobile devices, and while the language specific stuff is old hat, there's lots of transitional stuff I need to learn. Any links are appreciated. I'd like to not brick my Omnia by doing something silly, so I'll be developing strictly on my desktop until I'm satisfied with the safety of whatever it is I'm developing.
Thanks, awesome community here!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Writing in C#.NET Compact -- you have no worries for 'safety', unless you literally do a File.Delete("/Windows/blah");, you should be okay ;P
But yes, It is based off of the big .NET Framework. So if you can do .NET, you can do .NETCF.

acidhax said:
if you can do .NET, you can do .NETCF.
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Click to collapse
I don't agree. In .NET you usually do not need to worry about performance, you usually get away just fine by using a simple approach at the cost of a small bit of performance. On .NET CF you certainly need all the performance you can get. Also, the .NET Compact Framework is heavily stripped down and for a lot of tasks you need to find an alternative, innovative solution.

Managed DirectX For Windows Mobile

Hi,
Unfortunanately there isn't yet a lot of information available out on the net regarding development using Microsoft.WindowsMobile.DirectX namespace.
I am hoping we can start a new forum section dedicated to just this? What do you guys think?
I've only been working with it for about a week now, and I am struggling to find helpful information, and am figuring out a lot of things through trial and error (note the SDK documentation is quite thin too!).
Is there anyone else on this site that is keen to collaborate and share DirectX experiences?

i'm very interested in but i failed in basics (look here) and nobody here seems something to know about that.
one year before i gained few expieriences in direct3d. its similar but not the same to develop for mobile...
did you get running the examples of d3d from the ms mobile sdk?

heggenhugo said:
did you get running the examples of d3d from the ms mobile sdk?
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Yea, all the examples (not) in the SDK worked. I put "not" in parentheses because it took me a long time to locate them as the are no longer included as part of the .Net compact framework SDKs or the DirectX compact framework.
I am working on a simple app now that will determine the hardwares capabilities, allowing developers to quickly discover which devices their apps/games will run on. But I am still only just getting used to the environment also.

could you send me please (or link) a working example? it would be enough to see how to create a d3d window. i want to develop an application that uses the g-sensor to navigate in a little 3d environment (for instance turn around a cube or sth like this).
ty

VB.Net D3DM Samples - DirectX Capabilities App
Here are all the MS provided examples. I have not tried them all, but most of them work (on my device). The emulators run them, but very very slowly.
I have also attached the ActiveX Capabilites Test.exe application I created which will show you exactly what DirectX features are available on a particular device.
It requires .Net 3.5 to be installed.
View attachment VB.zip - Vb.Net samples
View attachment 250790 - DirectX Capability Test (install to device)

A good start
Anyone looking to get started on Mobile DirectX Development, should start with the fundimentals of the Managed DirectX Runtimes.
I recommend "Managed DirectX 9 Kick Start - Graphics and Game Programming" by Tom Miller. It's a good start into the world of Managed DirectX.

Extracting Native APIs? Possible...maybe.

Okay, so since the unlocked emulator has a file manager and task manager, does that mean it would be possible to extract them and run them on an actual WP7S device? And if that was possible, would it also be possible to extract the Native APIs from these apps? I'm fairly certain that they use Native APIs because ordinary apps can only access their own directory. I'm not very smart with these things, so sorry if it's obviously impossible or something.

It's wince - the native API is always there, where do you want to extract it from? Also some people figured out most WP7 apps from the emulator ROM are written in native as well. it's always here.
But you can't just put file manager on a WP7 device because there's no access for you to put anything on it, except apps from Marketplace you got the picture? even if we could cook our custom ROMs in the future the only thing we could do is throw in our own DLLs, services or background tools on it and customize it a little. I still doubt you'd be able to develop real WP7 style apps like a file manager or registry editor because the GUI is supposed to be written in Silverlight/XNA. And from those frameworks you can't access the native API unless Microsoft would add support for it.
101% dumb phone. If you think about it then WP7 is even WORSE then iphone.

But what if you could use Visual Studio to load it onto the device? If you look around in it, there is an option for that.

Actual devices will have to be unlocked for developement purposes to allow sideloading through Visual Studio and even then I doubt the system would be able to deploy native code. Developer phone means a yearly fee for membership in the MS developer programm.
I don't think that using native APIs from managed code would be impossible in the SDK - carriers, e.g. will be allowed to use it, but for normal applications the Security Context in .Net would prevent the programm from calling them (Code Security Managers are configurably available in Java and .Net from the beginning, so i believe that would be what MS uses to block access).
And of course programs using those wouldn't get on the marketplace.

Oh, too bad then, but thanks for your response anyway!

Fdo35 said:
Okay, so since the unlocked emulator has a file manager and task manager, does that mean it would be possible to extract them and run them on an actual WP7S device? And if that was possible, would it also be possible to extract the Native APIs from these apps? I'm fairly certain that they use Native APIs because ordinary apps can only access their own directory. I'm not very smart with these things, so sorry if it's obviously impossible or something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay, the issue here is the lack of a few key DLLs: Windows 7 Series will not offer GDI most likely (I'm downloading the emulator set now, and will confirm this soon) and will lack comctl32.dll and the like, removing these functions. As it's been stated before, like Windows 7 uses the 6.1 NT Kernel, Windows Phone 7 series uses the 6.5 Windows CE kernel, at least, last that I've heard. It would then be both possible to bring Windows Mobile 6.5 DLLs over, but anything that calls GDI will not work. Solution? Make a mock GDI that uses the new render.
This isn't new either, Windows 7 uses WPF more than ever (Which composes most of the games as well as Windows Media Center), which is a 3D accelerated and fancier way to draw to the screen, and Windows 7's GDI subset has been updated to allow hardware acceleration granted the graphics card allows it (It's actually something the video card driver must tell Windows, as MSDN states)

Deploy native code, no. Run it, of course
I'll be investigating the possibility of native code here shortly. Chances are, you will need to set the target to ARMV6, and set the compile type to Native, not Windows. Most developers, if not all, probably have overlooked this.

I would expect that it'll require privileged access to run native code, so you'll need to solve the code signing problem.

ThymeCypher said:
Okay, the issue here is the lack of a few key DLLs: Windows 7 Series will not offer GDI most likely (I'm downloading the emulator set now, and will confirm this soon) and will lack comctl32.dll and the like, removing these functions. As it's been stated before, like Windows 7 uses the 6.1 NT Kernel, Windows Phone 7 series uses the 6.5 Windows CE kernel, at least, last that I've heard. It would then be both possible to bring Windows Mobile 6.5 DLLs over, but anything that calls GDI will not work. Solution? Make a mock GDI that uses the new render.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I doubt things like comctl.dll and some other things like GWES will be that big of an issue once Platform Builder 7 is released and we can just generate these components ourselves. Hell, adding back GDI support (if those rumors aren't just lies) may be as easy as replacing the GWES with a less crippled one generated by Platform Builder. Maybe GDI support is still compiled in but just doesn't output directly to the screen using the default graphics driver implementation. That's how the Dreamcast implementation of Windows CE was. To even see apps like IE on the screen, you need to copy the contents of the standard WinCE GDI output to a DirectDraw surface.
What I'm more worried about is the hackability of the hardware/software. I'm really hoping it's not as insanely locked down to the point to being unhackable like every Zune.

do you think Platform builder is still available for WP7? Since MS won't allow the OEMs to modify the OS I doubt that. Do you have a source? You've seen an announcement from MS or something?

RAMMANN said:
do you think Platform builder is still available for WP7? Since MS won't allow the OEMs to modify the OS I doubt that. Do you have a source? You've seen an announcement from MS or something?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Platformbuilder is for the OS, which is Windows CE. There is still some debate as to what version the emulator is running, leaving alone the possibility that the actual version of the OS may be different at release.
If the CE6R3 camp is right, you can get platform builder for that right now, though you wont have telshell.exe (WP7 replacement for explorer.exe), and the WP7 specific apps. It would be an interesting exercise to see if they could be run on CE6R3. If no one beats me to the punch, I plan on trying this for myself when I am less swamped at work.
If the CE7 camp is right, you will have to wait till MS releases that version to the public. And they WILL release it because there are far too many embedded systems outside of phones that run on CE for them to neglect it.

No, I was talking about the generic Windows CE 7.0 Platform Builder and not the OEM specific OAK for WP7S. Unless MS plans to completely drop their generic Embedded Windows CE offerings, I see no reason why PB 7.0 will not be released and help with hacking WP7S (if it is even based on 7.0). You always needed to be a large ODM and sing an NDA to use a Platform Builder addon/OAK for the MS platforms like Pocket PC. Those almost never leak and I can't imagine this would be much different.

RAMMANN said:
do you think Platform builder is still available for WP7? Since MS won't allow the OEMs to modify the OS I doubt that. Do you have a source? You've seen an announcement from MS or something?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, platform builder was used to build leaked wp7 arm image.
d:\wm700_6176\platform\common\src
\soc\qcom_v1\oal\power\sleep.c
It is from from nk.exe

use dumpbin.exe to get all methods in dll/exe

[Q] Why Microsoft decided not to build NT-based OS?

Hello,
one question bothers me since the first time I have heard about WP7. Why Microsoft have decided to create a whole new OS without thinking of OS that would ne NT-based so any program made for normal PC would run on our phones. Just imagine, how many developers could easily port their programs to new OS, just changin the screen size, leaving all core components just the same... All classic PC games, like Blood, Duke Nukem workin flawlesly on a phone without the need of any port. I believe, that it is the only real way to compete with Android and Iphone OS. What do you think?

Wolfas said:
Hello,
one question bothers me since the first time I have heard about WP7. Why Microsoft have decided to create a whole new OS without thinking of OS that would ne NT-based so any program made for normal PC would run on our phones. Just imagine, how many developers could easily port their programs to new OS, just changin the screen size, leaving all core components just the same... All classic PC games, like Blood, Duke Nukem workin flawlesly on a phone without the need of any port. I believe, that it is the only real way to compete with Android and Iphone OS. What do you think?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if the app was created in siverlight/c# which alot of newer apps are then it can be ported to wp7.. For sometime now microsoft has been pushing their silverlight for devolpers to use so if the games you mentioned is bult in silverlight there should be no problem...

NT on a mobile phone would be a usability nightmare...look how far windows mobile got with the masses. Microsoft is not catering towards the hackers, but the masses.
And to be honest, I would not touch any mobile device running NT...LOL.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

emuneee said:
NT on a mobile phone would be a usability nightmare...look how far windows mobile got with the masses. Microsoft is not catering towards the hackers, but the masses.
And to be honest, I would not touch any mobile device running NT...LOL.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
me eather!!! i am so done with wm 6.0, 6.1, 6.5 and its many problems having to flashing rom after rom, restarting the device cause it has no memory left, this list goes on... wp7 is like a breth of fresh air...

Why so negative? WM always had problems, but the level of freedom and customization made me love this platform more and more. And I wouldn't be so sure about unpopularity of this kind of new OS, as NT-based Windows OS platform is the most popular in PC world, stable and nice-looking enough, so why it couldn't be that popular in mobile phones, especially with wide variety of programs already designed for this platform, only waiting for small fixes of resolution? Those games are from dos era, with no good port on any mobile platform...

wolfas said:
why so negative? Wm always had problems, but the level of freedom and customization made me love this platform more and more. And i wouldn't be so sure about unpopularity of this kind of new os, as nt-based windows os platform is the most popular in pc world, stable and nice-looking enough, so why it couldn't be that popular in mobile phones, especially with wide variety of programs already designed for this platform, only waiting for small fixes of resolution? Those games are from dos era, with no good port on any mobile platform...
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Click to collapse
dont get me wrong i not trying to say 6.5 is not for some people just not for me... I think the fact that smartphones moved to a more touch enviroment it seems that the old wm is not as finger friendly and made more for the use of an stylist, to me this type of os seems to not work well on mobile devices for long peorids without a reboot maybe its the way its design or maybe it just have too many things of the desktop enviroment not sure but it gets to be a problem for me, others my not mind. As far as customizing goes well guess you cant have everything.. i personaly would prefer a more stable os than customization, and i am sure additional pc like options will come as well as more customization in the future..

I think the main reason why NT would not make a good mobile OS is simply because it was never designed or meant to run on a mobile device. Your phone is not a computer, so your phone needs an operating environment to suit it's purpose.
The "phone as a computer" approach has been tried by Microsoft, it's called Windows Mobile. While I love Windows Mobile, I have to say, having "Windows NT" on a phone just doesn't make sense.
While it would be cool to play Duke Nukem on your Windows NT mobile device, at the end of the day, you are going to put down your Windows NT phone and just sit at your computer and play Duke Nukem on that. It's just a better overall experience, and Windows NT was designed for that sit-down, productive, huge screen experience. So it wouldn't make sense to invest in a platform that no one would use at the end of the day because their desktop computer does it better.
What you have to do is create an entirely unique and different experience designed for the phone and "on-the-go" life, to complement the Windows NT desktop experience. That is after all, what your phone is for. That's what Windows Phone 7 is.
Can't wait to get my hands on a Windows Phone 7.... phone.... XD

Well, I guess you are right, but I will try once more to support my idea, if you don't mind. I still see some reasons why NT- based mobile OS would be a good idea:
1. There are plenty of popular netbooks, tablet PC's and other relative small devices with full XP, Vista or Win7 OS. All of them are made for on the go experience and still having NT OS. Not even talking about miniature UMPC's. We also often leave these devices unused when we turn on our normal PC's at home, but doesn't prevent them from having huge popularity.
2. Of cource, I do not want to suggest porting normal WinXP to mobile phones (but win98 on my touch pro didn't look half that bad ), but rather something with an UI suited for small screens, but still capable to run any application made for normal Windows.
3. I also think about the interest of developers to this kind of OS. Theorically, there would be no need to learn OS-specific programming, just the things used on any NT OS. Most of the developers who makes programs for PC would be able to make a version for this OS just by changing the resolution, leaving engine just the same.
Please, say your opinion about these things I've pointed out

1. Netbooks and tablets still operate outside of the smartphone arena of capabilities and requirements for most users. There is a reason why there isn't a successful phone running Windows XP. You can write the drivers and software for phone functionality, but at the end of the day NT was not produced with phones in mind.
2. Applications written for desktops are written for desktop processors and memory capacities. Its not a simple change of just resolutions. What if an app request memory that doesn't exist on the mobile device? Chances are the mobile device can't even address that amount of memory. So you design a mobile focused NT kernel...well now all apps can't run on both platforms..so what's the point.
3. Yes you do, because all the capabilities available on a desktop aren't available on a smartphone. Developers still have to keep that in mind when their app is in development.
I sit here looking at my Windows XP work workstation and I would kill myself if I had to use this on a phone. Windows Mobile was hard enough.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

I forget the name but there was a secret (ish) project inside Microsoft to make the NT kernel more portable and sorta combine it with the CE kernel. They were basically building off the MinWin work.
But remember, native code still wouldn't be cross platform. x86 and ARM are not binary compatible. Just look at "OSX" on Mac desktops and "OSX" as the base of "iOS". Nothing crosses back and forth.

The NT kernel doesn't scale down that well yet. The kernel land is still full of bidirectional vertical dependencies. The current lowest profile incarnation called MinWin needs like 40MB RAM to boot to a text console and offer next to no APIs and is still shock full of missing dependencies (apparently boot loader magic makes it not break on boot).
Once they're really done despaghettifying, you might see it on mobile devices. But that'll still take a while, because right now, slimming down involves tons of aliasing dependencies to nothing.

Absolutely no reason why they could not run NT on a smart phone but why would they? They already have Windows CE (aka pocket PC) and if MS had been serious about Pocket PC IMHO they would be in a much better market position now.
One of the biggest messups with Pocket PC is the inconsistancy of the user interface and MS failed to revamp the 6.5 completely for touch.... They have a lot of good things going with WM 6.5 but it was an incomplete effort and it shows.

well, I see you are right... That NT is much more complex monster than I thought, thanks for clearing that out Yesterday, I found information about device called xpPhone, I wonder what would you say about it ? http://www.xpphone.com/en/product/specification.html

[Q] Anyway to run a win environment on the note? (emulator)

Hi
Been wondering if there was anyway to emulate or run a virtual win environment on our little tab?
Was thinking along the lines of Xp or Win 7...
Anyone?

DeBoX said:
Hi
Been wondering if there was anyway to emulate or run a virtual win environment on our little tab?
Was thinking along the lines of Xp or Win 7...
Anyone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not possible.

Not running Windows per se, but the Microsoft RDP client on Android linked to a Windows PC works very well.
I don't think we'll ever see the Windows kernel running on the Exynos chipset TBH, at the least it would require virtualization or emulation that would require a lot of coding and in any case Windows would place a much larger overhead on the processors than Android or Linux.
Windows RT, the Microsoft "equivalent" of Android (i.e. designed to run on a low-powered chipset), has not been very well received due to its much reduced command set. It looks like Windows desktop, but it cannot run full-blown Windows desktop applications.
FWIW

Ok, figured I'd ask. I know there were a decent number of virtualisation projects a while back, but usually focused around win98 etc
Though I'd love a stripped xp version on this tab

Could always use Citrix Receiver

could you elaborate a bit?

DeBoX said:
could you elaborate a bit?
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Heres a link all the info is there most probably best to use gotomypc By the same devs though mate.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.citrix.Receiver

Well contrary to the "impossible" brigade... a VM with CPU emulation allows all kinds of impossible feats.
PearPC being an example or VirtualPC on old PPC Macs, etc etc. ! There are of course limitations. But the point is x86 & some basic HW emulation will allow you to run Windows as long as what's being emulated is of good enough spec for the version of Windows you want.
The bottleneck is almost always the speed the CPU emulation runs at, and that depends on both host and target architecture and there are different approaches with different advantages/drawbacks.
I've used BOCHS on my 10.1 (original) to run win98 (slooowly) - and others have got XP running (google is your friend) I chose 98 as it's basically DOS +GUI so I figured it might work better. I've not invested a lot of effort as the emulation and integration of UI elements isn't brilliant (yet).
There's a link here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1389700
There are other x86 emulators like DOSBOX/QEMU running on ARM but as with all emulation it's never going to be as quick as a real CPU! That said some DOS games play well I believe.
I've not tried it on my 10.1 (2014) so can't comment on how it good it is there. Can't see how it would be worse!
YMMV.