Develop Bugs

angry devs stop living in the stone age

face it, low level apis and languages are for hobbyists now adays. programming languages like C# are huge. .Net makes it so easy and quick to write applications. that's what professionals use. the amount of applications released will be explosive. go ahead, go to android, it's crappy java, and if you use the native development kit,it compiles against the old instruction set. android has hardly even made a dent in the market. it will never be mainstream,just like linux. whine all you want, but microsoft got a bad rap because of crappy coders who crashed the os all the time. it is no longer a hobbyist OS but a consumer OS.

no matter how easy C# is and everything but sometimes you still need access to low level functionality. I agree it's a good idea to recommend modern languages for development on WP7 or any future OS but I don't think it's alright to completely deny the privileged mode APIs, like they were previously called on WM. It's alright if you need to get special certificates if you want to do such risky things (you need that already on WM6) but it still should be possible after all.
I agree about the Android part of your post. On this board it seems to get hyped quited a lot but in real life sales are not really that groundbreaking like everyone thinks. WM is still a lot stronger. Still, I don't even see any advantages you'd get with a switch to Android!

I'm a .net dev but there's instances where you need the unmanaged APIs to do things. There's lots of gaps in the .net compact framework.

I got a nexus one for me and my wife. I was a WM fanboy but I have to say I will never use a WM device again. I have a zune hd and it sucks at everything. The new browser is worse then WM 6.5. I think WM7 is gonna fail big time. What are you talking about that android is not getting market share? Android will gain 20% more market share in two years.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100209-717900.html
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/android_market_share_doubles_will_overtake_palm_soon.php
http://phandroid.com/2009/11/15/android-stealing-symbian-winmo-market-share/

shep211 said:
I got a nexus one for me and my wife. I was a WM fanboy but I have to say I will never use a WM device again. I have a zune hd and it sucks at everything. The new browser is worse then WM 6.5. I think WM7 is gonna fail big time. What are you talking about that android is not getting market share? Android will gain 20% more market share in two years.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100209-717900.html
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/android_market_share_doubles_will_overtake_palm_soon.php
http://phandroid.com/2009/11/15/android-stealing-symbian-winmo-market-share/
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Noone knows what's going to happen in two years. That prediction was also made before WP7 was announced so it's somewhat meaningless now. Who said the browser is the same one that's in the ZuneHD? The web browser was an afterthought for the ZuneHD and it's a prime feature of WP7. I expect it to be much improved.

RustyGrom said:
Noone knows what's going to happen in two years. That prediction was also made before WP7 was announced so it's somewhat meaningless now. Who said the browser is the same one that's in the ZuneHD? The web browser was an afterthought for the ZuneHD and it's a prime feature of WP7. I expect it to be much improved.
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I have seen all the wm7 videos and its the same os. They said WM7 would not be based off of the zune hd os but it is. Watch the zune hd videos then WM7 videos. Same os and same browser. They are just adding phone support. I preordered my zune hd and was every unhappy with it. Nothing new or better then ipod. The browser has to be the worst browsing experience ever. Cant download podcast from the phone. You have to dock it and load the podcast on the phone. Cant listen to music without headphones. Tons and tons of stuff that makes you think WTF.

Interesting considering the browser IS different, and you other complaints wont be there on a phone.
Its not the same OS, its just they standardizing there UIs.

RAMMANN said:
no matter how easy C# is and everything but sometimes you still need access to low level functionality. I agree it's a good idea to recommend modern languages for development on WP7 or any future OS but I don't think it's alright to completely deny the privileged mode APIs, like they were previously called on WM. It's alright if you need to get special certificates if you want to do such risky things (you need that already on WM6) but it still should be possible after all.
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RustyGrom said:
I'm a .net dev but there's instances where you need the unmanaged APIs to do things. There's lots of gaps in the .net compact framework.
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yes i know we need certain APIs to do certain things,but nobody knows yet what the new framework will be like. who's to say what is limited and what isn't when we don't have any of this info yet.

I completely agree with o2neouzr. Whay are people whining about it when they have no idea what will and won't be included in .NET CF 4?
I've only done a small amount of phone development on WM6 and C# has been fine. My app responds to missed calls and texts when I'm on the motorbike. I recently discussed porting it to the iPhone with a friend. It turns out even really basic stuff like sending a text, knowing if you've missed a call, running with the screen off are all impossible on the iPhone - even with approval from Apple. I reckon we'll be allowed to do a reasonable amount. It'll still be better than the crappy iPhone.

Think of an Operating System like the rule of law in a country; now there is a rumor that the supreme leaders decide to enforce that the only dress code allowed is T-Shirt, of course, the rationals in breadth and depth as in any totalitarian country is only known to the supreme leaders.
"Death to fashion designers!" yelled the fanatics.
"They can't see the simplicity of T-Shirt!" chimed the supporters.
" It is easy to make!!" cried the guards.
" It takes only a minute to paint!!!" said the propagandist.
" It is ready for mass market!!!!" snapped the enforcers to anyone who dare to challenge the new establishment.
"Burn in hell for daring to wear any other dress! T-Shirt is the future! Any one wearing dress is living in the stone age !"
Of course it is hard for concern citizens like we, fashion designers - native developers, to have a decent conversation with this group of people. How can words explain the beauty of our love ones (customers), walking through the crowds of T-Shirts --- in designers' dress. How can we explain the search of excellence, as the way of life, to so many of us, perfecting the art, year after year, to bring out the best of us for the world to see the beauty of free expression.
It is not like that we can't make T-Shirt, it is no-brainer for most of us. The beauty of simplicity is simple but not simpler. A native developers try to achieve simplicity without making things simpler.

Fred23 said:
I completely agree with o2neouzr. Whay are people whining about it when they have no idea what will and won't be included in .NET CF 4?
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It's not really about having the limited stuff of .NET CF in mind and doing PInvoke for really standard issues. It's about the whole architecture of the runtime. can you do DLL injection or hook into another process with .NET? Not at all. DLLs don't even exist there. You understand... we need the native API if we want to do all the funny things. Recent example: On the Omnia2 there's the taskmon service running which is closing applications if you open more than 3 or 4 (!!!!). chainfire guy wrote a tool that injects into the service to stop this nonsense. More examples are the File explorer extensions, Quick menu, XTask etc. You don't need this stuff? Fine! Go get an iphone!

RAMMANN said:
It's not really about having the limited stuff of .NET CF in mind and doing PInvoke for really standard issues. It's about the whole architecture of the runtime. can you do DLL injection or hook into another process with .NET? Not at all. DLLs don't even exist there. You understand... we need the native API if we want to do all the funny things. Recent example: On the Omnia2 there's the taskmon service running which is closing applications if you open more than 3 or 4 (!!!!). chainfire guy wrote a tool that injects into the service to stop this nonsense. More examples are the File explorer extensions, Quick menu, XTask etc. You don't need this stuff? Fine! Go get an iphone!
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Ummmmmmmmmm DLLs do exist in .net. In fact, pretty much the entire .net framework is just a collection of DLLs. Have you ever even written a .net app or any software at all for that matter? It seems your hatred is extremely unfounded.
There likely won't be a file explorer to extend and all of the other things you list get into modifying the UI so those won't be allowed either. They're ugly hacks that shouldn't be needed on any platform. Yea, WinMo needed them to cover up it's many flaws.
You don't need native APIs to do those things necessarily. There just needs to be managed APIs to do them. They won't be allowing it though so it's a moot point.
If you want to completely replace the UI, go get an Anroid phone!
There's a middle ground that they need to find. I feel that's what they're shooting for but it doesn't sound like they're gonna hit it. I'm expecting only a subset of .net CF as even that would allow you to do 'too much' in their mind.

alright I admit I have written bull****. of course there are DLLs in .NET but I rather mean they are handled little different than usual DLLs. So I thought common sense is you call them assemblies instead of DLLs. oh! And yes I have written Windows applications in .NET but always refrained from using it on WM due to performance issues and because it's so incomplete and for all the interesting stuff you have to use PInvoke anyway. Also if you at least had checked the link in my signature before judging then you would have seen that I'm actually writing software for WM. besides that, it's even my daily job to write software for Windows/WM for like... ahm... 12 years now.
RustyGrom said:
There likely won't be a file explorer to extend and all of the other things you list get into modifying the UI so those won't be allowed either. They're ugly hacks that shouldn't be needed on any platform. Yea, WinMo needed them to cover up it's many flaws.
You don't need native APIs to do those things necessarily. There just needs to be managed APIs to do them. They won't be allowing it though so it's a moot point.
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That's the point actually. What I love about WM is that you can easily (or not so easy) hack your way through it and if that's not allowed anymore in a new revision then a lot of fun is taken for me and I guess for "a few more folks" here on XDA. WM like it is with 6.5.x is REALLY comfortable with me and that's no joke! I'm trying to customize and modify it because it's a lot of fun to do so, not because the OS is so bad. Currently I'm running 6.5.x with Sense 2.5 on my Topaz and everything is running really smooth and responsive and I can't complain at all!!
RustyGrom said:
If you want to completely replace the UI, go get an Anroid phone!
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I hate Android! I don't really want to code in Java. And their native API is a joke isn't it? If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?

I could understand the frustration for not having full access to native API, full multitasking, etc.
It will be no joy ... no fun ... especially when you simply cannot customize the UI "the way you want" (You can still customize the WP7 start screen).
You cannot express your full creativity.
That is really valid concern.
But ....................................
Could this "new situation of WP7" trigger another kind of creativity?
To the extreme, who would think creating fart application? I know, probably this is a bad example of creativity, but still ... it is kind of creativity.
My point, in whatever situation, people will simply adapt and certain people will excel with their creativity!
Could that be YOU?
RAMMANN said:
I hate Android! I don't really want to code in Java. And their native API is a joke isn't it? If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?
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RAMMANN said:
If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?
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If I understand this Charlie Kindel (who supposedly is the guy in charge of all this API/SDK stuff), it's not their intention to lock the "fun stuff" out indefinitely. What he's saying is more in the lines of "we want a consistent and logical environment/ecosystem for developers and users, and in order to achieve that, we need to change from the "let's push everything we have out the door" mentality towards "let's make it really good", and this requires serious focused step-by-step approach". They want to start with "consumer application" and hobbyist developers (the latter probably means fart app makers and such), which is understandable because they want to build consumer appeal first. Other categories of developers will be addressed after that.
So, while I don't expect much "fun" you're talking about in WP7, I think this will evolve over time. It's unfortunate that we're not getting things to play with right now, but maybe you won't need to wait until you are old and grey haired. And also maybe we'll really get great APIs/SDK, which will be more useful, consistent and complete than the current incompletely and sometimes incredibly poorly documented mess. Just trying to be positive here.

RAMMANN said:
That's the point actually. What I love about WM is that you can easily (or not so easy) hack your way through it and if that's not allowed anymore in a new revision then a lot of fun is taken for me and I guess for "a few more folks" here on XDA. WM like it is with 6.5.x is REALLY comfortable with me and that's no joke! I'm trying to customize and modify it because it's a lot of fun to do so, not because the OS is so bad. Currently I'm running 6.5.x with Sense 2.5 on my Topaz and everything is running really smooth and responsive and I can't complain at all!!
I hate Android! I don't really want to code in Java. And their native API is a joke isn't it? If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?
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I agree with you. Many people hate WM6.5, I like it. I enjoy the customizability as many others on here do. However, I would also enjoy 'retiring' from the need to do that. It's kind of annoying knowing that the first thing I have to do when I get a new phone is go home and HardSPL it and flash a new ROM. I've heard some of the newer devices are much better out the door (HD2 for example) but haven't seen this for myself.
I don't think the members of this forum are part of Microsoft's target audience for end users. Devs, yea, but not end users. They are shooting for people disenchanted with their iPhone, Android, and more importantly the other 75% of the cell phone market that's still using "feature phones" (aka dumb phones).
It definitely looks like MS is going to lock down much more than WM6.5. Will we still be cooking custom roms? My guess is yes. But your common user will have more restrictions on what apps can and can't do.
I look at this as a new challenge more than anything else.
vangrieg said:
If I understand this Charlie Kindel (who supposedly is the guy in charge of all this API/SDK stuff), it's not their intention to lock the "fun stuff" out indefinitely. What he's saying is more in the lines of "we want a consistent and logical environment/ecosystem for developers and users, and in order to achieve that, we need to change from the "let's push everything we have out the door" mentality towards "let's make it really good", and this requires serious focused step-by-step approach". They want to start with "consumer application" and hobbyist developers (the latter probably means fart app makers and such), which is understandable because they want to build consumer appeal first. Other categories of developers will be addressed after that.
So, while I don't expect much "fun" you're talking about in WP7, I think this will evolve over time. It's unfortunate that we're not getting things to play with right now, but maybe you won't need to wait until you are old and grey haired. And also maybe we'll really get great APIs/SDK, which will be more useful, consistent and complete than the current incompletely and sometimes incredibly poorly documented mess. Just trying to be positive here.
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That's a good way to look at it. I just hope that they don't get too restrictive from the start. I think the .net CF would be a good starting point that they should add onto but it almost sounds like they're only picking and choosing pieces from it. If we've got the whole .net CF (maybe minus a few things they don't want us doing) I would be fine with that.

RustyGrom said:
I agree with you. Many people hate WM6.5, I like it. I enjoy the customizability as many others on here do. However, I would also enjoy 'retiring' from the need to do that. It's kind of annoying knowing that the first thing I have to do when I get a new phone is go home and HardSPL it and flash a new ROM. I've heard some of the newer devices are much better out the door (HD2 for example) but haven't seen this for myself.
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I have used my Topaz with the 6.1 factory ROM for at least 2-3 months. At this time I couldn't complain. I didn't face any issues. I only started to flash new ROMs when 6.5 and later issues were available...
About retiring... I don't think you will. The need to immediately flash a new WP7 device is always given. Just imagine you got a new phone from a Telecom contract and you got all your hubs in pink...

RustyGrom said:
I think the .net CF would be a good starting point that they should add onto but it almost sounds like they're only picking and choosing pieces from it. If we've got the whole .net CF (maybe minus a few things they don't want us doing) I would be fine with that.
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I'm not much a developer (it's not my profession, I just did a couple of things for fun), but, apart from performance issues which can more or less be improved in the new OS, I've seen two types of limitations with .Net CF on WM 6.x: it's been nearly impossible to make nice UI without awful performance, and there are big gaps in terms of accessing "low-level" and sometimes not so low-level stuff and hence need for PInvoke.
The first issue will probably be addressed by Silverlight and, possibly, better built-in UI controls and such. The second will probably be partly addressed by OS-level push, "live feed" APIs, which sometimes might help overcome the limitations of SNAPI. The obvious question marks are things like non-SNAPI event handling such as hardware key processing, power management, device IO etc. Theoretically, this could be done in an environment such as .Net, why not, but not in its current incarnation of CF 3.5. If they added functionality to .Net, it could make life easier for devs.
Obviously though, some things just aren't realistic in managed code, so no alternative browsers/video players for us apart from shells over MS engines (which means no .mkv support if it's not built into the OS already). It could be possible, though, if they're serious in trying to do things right this time, that they want to create those APIs/SDK together with devs. Say, it would be an awesome, albeit slow, path to sit down with CoreCodec and build a piece of the SDK on a specific case, understanding and overcoming the challenges step by step. Don't know if we can hope to get that kind of attitude though...

It's good to use .NET languages, but it is limited, at least on CompactFramework, so it's impossible to use ONLY .NET: you have to use unmanaged code for creating some things that .NET doesn't allow to.

vangrieg said:
I'm not much a developer (it's not my profession, I just did a couple of things for fun), but, apart from performance issues which can more or less be improved in the new OS, I've seen two types of limitations with .Net CF on WM 6.x: it's been nearly impossible to make nice UI without awful performance, and there are big gaps in terms of accessing "low-level" and sometimes not so low-level stuff and hence need for PInvoke.
The first issue will probably be addressed by Silverlight and, possibly, better built-in UI controls and such. The second will probably be partly addressed by OS-level push, "live feed" APIs, which sometimes might help overcome the limitations of SNAPI. The obvious question marks are things like non-SNAPI event handling such as hardware key processing, power management, device IO etc. Theoretically, this could be done in an environment such as .Net, why not, but not in its current incarnation of CF 3.5. If they added functionality to .Net, it could make life easier for devs.
Obviously though, some things just aren't realistic in managed code, so no alternative browsers/video players for us apart from shells over MS engines (which means no .mkv support if it's not built into the OS already). It could be possible, though, if they're serious in trying to do things right this time, that they want to create those APIs/SDK together with devs. Say, it would be an awesome, albeit slow, path to sit down with CoreCodec and build a piece of the SDK on a specific case, understanding and overcoming the challenges step by step. Don't know if we can hope to get that kind of attitude though...
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Yup. I'm expecting a 'revolution' of sorts in the UI standpoint. Like I've stated previously, it sucks trying to make a good, finger-friendly UI. XNA will make game/3d creation a breeze. Silverlight will be awesome for more traditional style UIs. I'm just wondering how high level and low level they'll get. For example, if I wanted to make an app that looked exactly like the main UI of the phone would I be able to just create a panel object, give it the text for the title, text and controls on that panel, and it will take care of the placement, input control, etc? Or what if I want to go the opposite route and create a UI of my own, will I be able to do that? I'm expecting things like button inputs to be provided. It would be crazy for them not to. That's part of the benefit of standardizing the buttons, they can easily bubble those up to devs.
The leaked docs show that native APIs and unmanaged code will be available to an extent but only to OEMs and carriers. I'm sure if people make enough noise they'll back down and approve apps that make use of that for others as well if they show the need. Microsoft's corporate culture traditionally hasn't been as 'religious' as Apple's and is more willing to back down on things if pushed.

Advantages over Android

Suggested thread from the one over iPhone because we were getting off topic. What are going to be the advantages of WP7 over Android that will keep everyone from switching to Google's open platform?

Integration with Microsoft's services.
I use them a lot and I like them, but they're not enough to keep me on WM. They will, unfortunately, also not be enough to make me get WP7. At least not until all of WP7's restrictions are lifted and I can find equivalents for all the apps I have on my phone now.
Other than that, unfortunately, there is nothing that WP7 does better than Android, from what I can see. I prefer Android's UI (tiles are just widgets, but widgets are better) and of course I prefer it's openness, customizability and the unlimited possibilities.
vangrieg said:
It's incomplete.
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If you want notes and tasks, yes. But there are apps for that. Everything else is there.
But people are not buying operating systems, they are buying phones. They don't ask "what OS does this phone run". They ask "what can this phone do".
If they need Exchange, they will get a phone with Exchange.
Not on all devices. Not well on all devices.
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Right. But I'll repeat myself:
People are not buying operating systems, they are buying phones. They don't ask "what OS does this phone run". They ask "what can this phone do".
If they need multitouch, they will buy a phone with multitouch.
Yes, we geeks ask "what OS does this phone run". But not normal people. We geeks can talk about fragmentation. Normal people will never think about that, they'll just ask "can this phone do what I want?".
Fragmentation is a non-issue. And it's not only bad. Android running on more phones means more customers, means more people buying apps, means more developers, means more apps, means more customers..................

1. Only high-end devices, which means apps won't be made for the least common denominator.
2. Native full multiple account Exchange support.
3. Built-in Office stuff, with Sharepoint (wow!)
4. MS-supplied drivers, made together with chip manufacturer, no crappy stuff from HTC or whoever.
5. Integration of web services (including third-party ones) in a meaningful way - contacts go to contacts, pictures to device picture library, without doing everything in a separate app - this way even I'll be using Facebook.
6. Real OTA updates, for all devices, because of a truly uniform platform.
7. Awesome UI, not a bland iPhone/WM third party launcher rip-off, both in terms of looks (subjective) and in terms of functionality (OS level widgets with rich APIs allowing to update text, graphics and animation). Hubs are an awesome idea too. Lots of text, easy to read/see what you need to tap. Everything I ever dreamed of in a UI actually.
8. Dev tools making creating awesome UI consistent with overall OS very easy.
9. Absolutely best video codec support out of the box, with perspective OTA additions for all devices.
10. Gorgeous desktop software for syncing stuff - Zune software is truly amazing - fast, flexible, great looking, I couldn't believe it were from Microsoft.
These are just a few things that came to mind immediately.

vangrieg said:
1. Only high-end devices, which means apps won't be made for the least common denominator.
2. Native full multiple account Exchange support.
3. Built-in Office stuff, with Sharepoint (wow!)
4. MS-supplied drivers, made together with chip manufacturer, no crappy stuff from HTC or whoever.
5. Integration of web services (including third-party ones) in a meaningful way - contacts go to contacts, pictures to device picture library, without doing everything in a separate app - this way even I'll be using Facebook.
6. Real OTA updates, for all devices, because of a truly uniform platform.
7. Awesome UI, not a bland iPhone/WM third party launcher rip-off, both in terms of looks (subjective) and in terms of functionality (OS level widgets with rich APIs allowing to update text, graphics and animation). Hubs are an awesome idea too. Lots of text, easy to read/see what you need to tap. Everything I ever dreamed of in a UI actually.
8. Dev tools making creating awesome UI consistent with overall OS very easy.
9. Absolutely best video codec support out of the box, with perspective OTA additions for all devices.
10. Gorgeous desktop software for syncing stuff - Zune software is truly amazing - fast, flexible, great looking, I couldn't believe it were from Microsoft.
These are just a few things that came to mind immediately.
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Damn, great list! I couldn't of said it better myself. But you forgot Xbox live support and acheivements!

1. Since the Market shows only compatible apps, apps do NOT have to be made for the least common denominator, like on WM
2. This is there on Android
3.
4.
5. This is actually better on Android with Sense.
6. Doesn't matter. People own one device, they don't care if others get OTA updates (talking about normal people)
7. The UI looks VERY ineffiecient. VERY VERY inefficient. Wasted space everywhere (why are the programs a freakin' list?! And why so few tiles per screen? That makes it VERY hard to get to apps). Android's UI is much better.
8. Dev tools are VERY restricted. Awesome UI yes, but no native APIs = Awesone looking apps with no functionality = useless
9. Not true. Some Android devices have better codec support OOTB.
10.
I'll agree with the rest, where I've not written something.
That's against:
1. Multitasking, enables lots of possibilities (streaming radio, IM clients and other clients, navigation)
2. Copy&paste
3. Customizability (not only looks, but also easily change the default apps for everything)
4. Apps, apps, apps - a huge market
5. A native development kit - enables much richer functionality for apps
6. More efficient UI
7. You don't have to pay for high-end phones and can still get lots of the functionality
8. Google services (hey, they're not THAT bad)
9. File system access - enables richer functionality for apps and removes the requirement for proprietary syncing methods (or emailind things to oneself ).

Sethos II said:
If you want notes and tasks, yes. But there are apps for that. Everything else is there.
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2.1 in Nexus One doesn't do Calendar sync. Only with Google Calendar which I don't give a damn about. Third party apps do exist but they have limitations and their own problems; plus I don't want to rely on third parties (neither HTC nor things called Moxier) for this critical functionality.
Sethos II said:
But people are not buying operating systems, they are buying phones.
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Most Android phones suck. Nexus One is a great device except default UI and missing Exchange stuff; Desire has HTC built Exchange stuff but is the best one out there. Evo will be a serious contender when it comes out in a GSM incarnation, I'll take a close look at it.
Sethos II said:
Fragmentation is a non-issue.
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It is. Yes, there are benefits to hardware variety (especially for Google), but the downsides exist as well. They are well known and documented, so no need to repeat the same stuff over and over. You can choose to ignore them but it doesn't change the fact that they exist. Froyo will try to address it. I'll take a look at Android then, again.

2.1 in Nexus One doesn't do Calendar sync. Only with Google Calendar which I don't give a damn about.
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Strange. Mine does.
Most Android phones suck.
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At least you get more than one. You usually buy only one phone, so why deos it matter to you whether other suck? Doesn't matter at all.
no need to repeat the same stuff over and over
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So far, the only thing that's been documented is that it is in fact NOT an issue:
If Google really thought there was a problem, they'd force restrictions. The plan described there makes sense, but doesn't adress the "issue" at all, except for Google's apps.
In reality, there isn't an issue. If a certain app doesn't run on your phone, it won't show up in the market. Phone upgrades usually go from lower to higher spec'd hardware, which means most likely more apps will run on the newer phone than on the old one.
The developer interest in Android also shows, that developers aren't too concerned. Developers are much more concerned about the restrictions they find on WP7, than about the fragmentation of Android.
Those restrictions make many projects impossible, whereas the fragmentation just means a bit more work to do.
Also, if they don't force restrictions, it means more phones will run Android. That means more people buying software, which makes up for the additional work developers have to do.
The only "issue" I can see is people buying cheap phones and then complaining that it doesn't work as well as the high-end Android phone they keep hearing about. But those are stupid people, anyway.
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Click to collapse
Now you can keep repeating yourself, but even if you keep saying it a thousand times, fragmentation won't become an issue.
Just because you're repeating it doesn't mean it will become true.

Sethos II said:
1. Since the Market shows only compatible apps, apps do NOT have to be made for the least common denominator, like on WM
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's the same with WM. You see only a fraction of apps in Marketplace (granted, this is a joke of an appstore, but still). The problem is, when the overwhelming majority of devices are crap, that's what normal devs will target. And that's what they do.
Sethos II said:
2. This is there on Android
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No.
Sethos II said:
5. This is actually better on Android with Sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not true. With Sense (which is a third party thing to begin with), you get what's built in. In WP7 you can have third party additional services hook into OS stuff in a very smooth way, way beyond the homescreen.
Sethos II said:
6. Doesn't matter. People own one device, they don't care if others get OTA updates (talking about normal people)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right. Thing is, when Android 2.1 came out, how many devices get the OTA upgrade? What if the one device I own doesn't get it? If it will, will it work 100%? Will my hardware support features in 2.3?
Sethos II said:
Android's UI is much better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll leave this without comment. I said that's the UI I could only dream of - it just implements almost everything I wanted.
Sethos II said:
8. Dev tools are VERY restricted. Awesome UI yes, but no native APIs = Awesone looking apps with no functionality = useless
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, it's not "useless", but no arguing it's incredibly limited. Me, I need an ebook reader and a satnav app. No use in WP7 without this stuff and copy/paste, I'm just not buying it. It's in a way like early Android without NDK, only much better in terms of UI frameworks and dev tools. We'll see how it evolves, it's a big uncertainty now. I personally think that most of the limitations originate in the very simple fact that SL3 just doesn't have the necessary functionality, while SL4 isn't ready yet and therefore couldn't be ported. Among other problems, current SL doesn't have methods to interact with native code. I suspect that this, rather than some religious principles, is the reason for not getting much of the stuff needed. So, in a nutshell, Android's APIs are arguably better in most areas apart from UI. Yet WP7 is hard to beat in this department.
Sethos II said:
9. Not true. Some Android devices have better codec support OOTB.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You missed the point. You get codec support from Samsung but not HTC, just like it is with WM. There's little to no chance you'll get it from Google.

Sethos II said:
why deos it matter to you whether other suck?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, because I personally don't see a phone I would want to buy. That's one hell of a reason for me.

Sethos II said:
Strange. Mine does.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Care to comment all this stuff?

It's the same with WM. You see only a fraction of apps in Marketplace (granted, this is a joke of an appstore, but still). The problem is, when the overwhelming majority of devices are crap, that's what normal devs will target. And that's what they do.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it's not. You're completely wrong here.
Devs make the apps they want. They want a high quality graphics game, they make it. They want an app that runs on every device, they make it. No problem there!
No.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes.
n WP7 you can have third party additional services hook into OS stuff in a very smooth way, way beyond the homescreen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. That's how it should be, but it's not. The dev tools don't allow enough integration.
Do you have an Android? If not, shut up. Cause I have one.
What if the one device I own doesn't get it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you're not a geek, you don't care. Most people are not geeks. No problem here!
I'll leave this without comment. I said that's the UI I could only dream of - it just implements almost everything I wanted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lots of inefficiently used space is all you wanted? LOL
Well, it's not "useless", but no arguing it's incredibly limited.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly. That's why apps on Android will be much more functional. Maybe they don't look as beautiful, but they look good enough. WP7 will get lots of beautiful, awesome looking fart apps.
You missed the point. You get codec support from Samsung but not HTC, just like it is with WM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, I didn't miss the point at all. Fact is, and I'm repeating myself again here, that people buy phones, not operating systems. They don't care whether the codec support comes from Google or HTC, they only care whether their phone can play their video or not.
Also, I don't see why Google wouldn't add codec suppot.

Well, because I personally don't see a phone I would want to buy. That's one hell of a reason for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What phone do you have? I'm sure my Nexus ca easily compete with it hardware-wise!

Care to comment all this stuff?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't know. I think I've downloaded a plugin or so. But I know it works on my phone.
EDIT: Ah well. That's what I did: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=5553563&postcount=2
I see it has to be rooted, because it wants the file in /system.
Well, I give you the points for that, but nevertheless, it works on mine
Plus, as I said, people buy devices. If they want Exchane, they ask "can this phone do Exchange" and if it's a Hero, Desire, Legend... then they get a "yes" and buy the device. I don't see any issue here.
The HTC apps are even better than the integration you get on WP7, or, at least as good. They merge your contacts together from Exchange, Google, SIM card, Facebook,...... just like WP7, but you get more control.
The Exchange mail inbox with HTC Sense is also better, or at least as good, as the Exchange inbox on WP7.
I really don't see an advantage for WP7 here. The HTC Sense stuff is just as good, or better.

Sethos II said:
Do you have an Android? If not, shut up. Cause I have one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great argument. I won't. Shut up yourself if you want.
Sethos II said:
That's why apps on Android will be much more functional. Maybe they don't look as beautiful, but they look good enough. WP7 will get lots of beautiful, awesome looking fart apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No arguing about functionality, at least in early WP7. I've already said I won't buy it for this reason. Yet it doesn't negate other benefits, including UI. And most Android apps look like crap to my taste.
Sethos II said:
No, I didn't miss the point at all. Fact is, and I'm repeating myself again here, that people buy phones, not operating systems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes you did miss the point. I can only get codec support if I buy Samsung phones. And I don't want them. I want an HTC Evo. It doesn't have codecs built in, and there are no decent third party video players yet. That's a drawback of the platform. WP7 will have the edge here. Whether it's important for you or not is a different matter.
Sethos II said:
What phone do you have? I'm sure my Nexus ca easily compete with it hardware-wise!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HD2. Until I see a GSM Evo I personally don't care for what else Android has.

Sethos II said:
I really don't see an advantage for WP7 here. The HTC Sense stuff is just as good, or better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do. I've had enough experience with HTC software to not want it. Ever. You may argue they magically turned into a great software company when they began developing for Android, but I won't believe. Native support for Exchange will always be preferrable to me. For others as well, I know it.

I've had enough experience with HTC software to not want it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On Android?
If not, don't judge it. Cause HTC's Android software is fine.
Their WM software only sucks because WM sucks.
HD2. Until I see a GSM Evo I personally don't care for what else Android has.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hm... let's see... my Nexus has the same hardware... except for the screen... which, frankly, looks much better than the HD2's (I had the HD2 before). It's also lighter, not such a fat brick. Still I prefer the HD2's Design, but that's not worth anything.
So I was right, your WM phone doesn't have better hardware...
Yes you did miss the point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No you missed the point. You buy phones, not operating systems. And by the way, starting from the Desire, HTC's phones get the same codec support.
Great argument. I won't. Shut up yourself if you want.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You think you know more about Android, but you don't even have one! Really?! If you don't know something, don't talk about it.

Sethos II said:
You think you know more about Android, but you don't even have one! How stupid is that? Really, if you don't know something, don't talk about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why do Android fanboys have to be rude? I didn't offend you in any way. Yes I do know something about Android, even though you have more experience and deeper knowledge. Some of the things are common knowledge though, you don't have to own an Android device to know that none of them offer 4.3" screens. Fragmentation is a more general phenomenon than Android itself, and there's enough written and said about it, including acknowledgements by Google themselves. There's a lot of well documented information like lack of native Exchange support, and so on. So please let's not resort to trolling.

Why do Android fanboys have to be rude?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not rude, but this is true!
Don't pretend you know more about Android than someone who is actually using one.
Even "common knowledge" is often nonsense!
And please, stop talking about "native Exchange support". It does have native Exchange support, peroid.
You can say "no calendar without rooting" (which also is not true for HTC devices), but stop denying that it doesn't have native Exchange support. It even supports multiple Exchange accounts! And on an HTC device, I can have my Exchange, including the calendar, pushed to my phone, PLUS my GMail pushed. Try that on a Windows Mobile phone!

I'm not pretending to know more about Android than you do. Never even tried.

Well, somehow you did.
Anyway, the iPhone is getting multiple Exchange account support.
I don't know, but I think this is all just embarrassing for Microsoft. I mean, yes, WP7 will also have that, but when? End of the year? Come on! WP7 should have been out one year ago!
And despite that it took so long, they couldn't even figure out multitasking or notifications! I mean, they had the iPhone, the Pre, Android and so on to copy from, but they even fail at copying the others!
Oh wow... now they've even announced a gaming network... OMG. This is it for WP7. How embarrassing...

Why all the hate?

We get that you don't like WP7, you come in here daily stating it for no reason that I can see. I certainly don't see it benefiting anyone or changing anyones minds. When I look in the android general section I don't see a bunch of WP7 fans in there posting about the (many) faults of the OS. What about Windows could possibly bring about so much hate except perhaps jealousy? I just don't see the reason why anyone wants to come in here over and over again more or less neglecting their own devices forum to bash on an OS most of them have never used. If you have a WP7 device and want to come bash it then whatever but really... no need for all this senseless hatred...

Well, I like it

Because alot of the people you speak of are not android or apple fans yet. They are still weighing their options of which os and phone is better. And when a android or apple user tell them whats wrong and what features are missing. The wp7 pole jockers start to get their feelings hurt, because the phone will eventually have the updates but dont. Thats my 2 cents.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App

Fear
These people you speak of do not like MS for whatever personal reasons. The thought that something like WP7 might be successful irritates the heck out of them. They fear that MS will be successful and it drives them crazy, so they post hateful messages in hopes that someone, anyone, will agree with them and reinforce their hope that MS will fail. Childish, immature, unrealistic, misguided, and, quite frankly, kind of disturbing.

z33dev33l said:
We get that you don't like WP7, you come in here daily stating it for no reason that I can see. I certainly don't see it benefiting anyone or changing anyones minds. When I look in the android general section I don't see a bunch of WP7 fans in there posting about the (many) faults of the OS. What about Windows could possibly bring about so much hate except perhaps jealousy? I just don't see the reason why anyone wants to come in here over and over again more or less neglecting their own devices forum to bash on an OS most of them have never used. If you have a WP7 device and want to come bash it then whatever but really... no need for all this senseless hatred...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What "hate"?...... hate is a pretty strong word for an inanimate object, if your talking about the many shortcomings of WP7 that are constantly pointed out, so what, they need to be pointed out and *****ed about otherwise MS won't change them.
There's probably an element of teasing people because of funny threads like you started about how you've never been so impressed with an OS, with many silly words like "love" and "beautiful" used and how it's so much smoother than whatever, if having smooth swiping and scrolling is your total requirement for a mobile OS, don't get upset when others think it isn't.
Don't assume everybody who says anything negative about WP7 is an Android user, a lot of them are long time PPC/WM users and have probably lost more than you've gained with WP7, it's their right as a customer to bleat all they want, people can say WP7 is not a replacement for WM all they like, fact is, it's being marketed and sold as one by Microsoft.....and it ain't....not even close.
People that are getting all bitter and twisted over others negative comments, need to step back and accept that XDA is a public forum moderated by users trying to be impartial, and if you don't like it, my suggestion is to start your own WP7 enthusiasts forum where you can moderate all negativity to your hearts desire....maybe a yahoo group or something where you can vet users thoroughly before allowing them into your little happy world etc.
"Try it, before you criticize it", yet every post I've read in here where someone has, and then they are pointing out it's shortcomings, WP7 defenders start saying inane things like....you should have known, and.......go back to your beloved android, honestly, this forum is like reading a commentary of primary school life or something these days, it used to be great, now it seems like some sort of perverted amusement value where no one can accept that someone else has different wants or requirements, and start using ridiculous terms like jealousy...hate...love...beauty...trolls....fanboys on and on....pretty bizarre [if not amusing] reading considering handhelds are being discussed.
edit> Fear, there's another one.
Carry on.

gerryjoson said:
People that are getting all bitter and twisted over others negative comments, need to step back and accept that XDA is a public forum moderated by users trying to be impartial, and if you don't like it, my suggestion is to start your own WP7 enthusiasts forum where you can moderate all negativity to your hearts desire....maybe a yahoo group or something where you can vet users thoroughly before allowing them into your little happy world etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
verdict is reached

So essentially it should be like WM6.5 (a failed OS regardless of what the members here say) or bust because its made by a company who in the early 2000s wanted to put out a phone that had some computer functionality and havent changed it much since? I loved WM primarily because I COULD modify the UI to something beautiful and I could always update it with the latest version of some UI replacement and I could do all this but at the end of the day it's nice to have a phone that just works from the start without a stylus or lag or anything. After owning a veritable ton of smartphones I can honestly say that with the WP7 I dont feel that I need to mod it to make it amazing. Yeah, it lacks a few basic features but I think it more than makes up for it in the areas it excels. I understand that not everyones going to like it. Some people are concerned with physical customizations I've personally not seen a UI so smooth before so I dont need any physical changes. However, more often than not if someone posts a thread like "I want to get a WP7" or something like that trolls will flock to the thread and try and pull them to android. I mean its not a big deal for some but some of us cant stand fragmentation. It's annoying and its an issue you'd think they wouldve addressed prior to this. If people want WM 6.5 its there. For those of us who want something newer that actually has a chance in the smartphone world, WP7 is there.

z33dev33l said:
So essentially it should be like WM6.5 (a failed OS regardless of what the members here say) or bust because its made by a company who in the early 2000s wanted to put out a phone that had some computer functionality and havent changed it much since? I loved WM primarily because I COULD modify the UI to something beautiful and I could always update it with the latest version of some UI replacement and I could do all this but at the end of the day it's nice to have a phone that just works from the start without a stylus or lag or anything. After owning a veritable ton of smartphones I can honestly say that with the WP7 I dont feel that I need to mod it to make it amazing. Yeah, it lacks a few basic features but I think it more than makes up for it in the areas it excels. I understand that not everyones going to like it. Some people are concerned with physical customizations I've personally not seen a UI so smooth before so I dont need any physical changes. However, more often than not if someone posts a thread like "I want to get a WP7" or something like that trolls will flock to the thread and try and pull them to android. I mean its not a big deal for some but some of us cant stand fragmentation. It's annoying and its an issue you'd think they wouldve addressed prior to this. If people want WM 6.5 its there. For those of us who want something newer that actually has a chance in the smartphone world, WP7 is there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I'm not interested in getting into a pissing contest about mine does this and yours doesn't, you asked the question, why so much hate, and I was giving reasons I thought were probably relevant apart from the extremely popular Android users conspiracy theory.
I don't really understand why you started this thread when you think you already know the answer, what was it ever going to achieve for you apart from more negativity for something you like?

XDA's official Galaxy S hater.
Location: Austin, Texas.
/thread

JoLLAJoLLA said:
XDA's official Galaxy S hater.
Location: Austin, Texas.
/thread
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what a waste of a post. What does this prove except that you can read???

nrfitchett4 said:
what a waste of a post. What does this prove except that you can read???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, it proves that the OP is a hypocrite as he is a Galaxy S hater. Your inability to extract this information from my post is tragically disappointing.

JoLLAJoLLA said:
Well, it proves that the OP is a hypocrite as he is a Galaxy S hater. Your inability to extract this information from my post is tragically disappointing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
29 posts in almost a year.
Are all of them this helpful???

well.. i used to have iphone and i hate it, i changed to android, kinda better.. then now i have wp7.
WP7 is the best amoung all the OS. i just love it.
games are much better,
i can do office,
interface is easy and fast,
screen is hell big on my HD7,
BUT
games and apps are expensive like shiat!

I am not hating WP7.
I own one for 2 months now and I just realize that it is not really a smartphone.
It is rather a phone for kids or for people who are not used to smartphones and need something very basic.

arturobandini said:
I am not hating WP7.
I own one for 2 months now and I just realize that it is not really a smartphone.
It is rather a phone for kids or for people who are not used to smartphones and need something very basic.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, name me another feature phone that has:
1. MS Office
2. Netflix streaming
3. slingbox
4. 3d games
5. exchange support
Just because it doesn't meet your needs, doesn't make it a featurephone.

It indeed has some nice features, but as long it does not have:
- a file explorer,
- an easy way to manage Office files
- an easy way to send Office and pdf files
- USB drive
- Skydrive client on the phone
I don't find it business oriented enough

I had Desire and Desire Z, so both Android smartphones, well first, I loved them, but that flashing game to get better Android sucks. And With each rom, official or not I got bugs. Well, now I have Omnia7 and it's really awesome. Music player, messaging, people hubs are super! It's a great OS which was created to get things done fast. Android is created to root, install roms and get ****ed up one day. Well, I hope that many other Android users will get bored with flashy thing and grow up one day. People, don't you have anything better to do, instead of flashing roms? And creating them? Company creates OS, and developers makes apps. And with android we have, that Google creates OS, which is **** and needs things like Sense and etc. to look not like cheap **** and then users, developers creates Roms. People, create apps not roms, if you want to create OS go and Create your own or join other companies.
So my opinion about WP7: very good Os, needs some updates to get some features that are lacking and more apps )) Which will come eventually ;]

arturobandini said:
It indeed has some nice features, but as long it does not have:
- a file explorer,
- an easy way to manage Office files
- an easy way to send Office and pdf files
- USB drive
- Skydrive client on the phone
I don't find it business oriented enough
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, these features like explorer will come one day. And I realized that I don't need them. All my things like music and pictures are synced with zune, which is awesome. And because it's not Android I don't install ****s like Roms and etc, so file transfer is not needed for me :]

Niiceg said:
I had Desire and Desire Z, so both Android smartphones, well first, I loved them, but that flashing game to get better Android sucks. And With each rom, official or not I got bugs. Well, now I have Omnia7 and it's really awesome. Music player, messaging, people hubs are super! It's a great OS which was created to get things done fast. Android is created to root, install roms and get ****ed up one day. Well, I hope that many other Android users will get bored with flashy thing and grow up one day. People, don't you have anything better to do, instead of flashing roms? And creating them? Company creates OS, and developers makes apps. And with android we have, that Google creates OS, which is **** and needs things like Sense and etc. to look not like cheap **** and then users, developers creates Roms. People, create apps not roms, if you want to create OS go and Create your own or join other companies.
So my opinion about WP7: very good Os, needs some updates to get some features that are lacking and more apps )) Which will come eventually ;]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Gimme a break. There is nothing bad in wanting to squash from your phone more than it gave you out of the box. Now you sound like some iPhone user
"Simply is simply better cause it's simply and I don't need nothing more". We spend hundrets of dollars to buy a capable phone, not a pretty device capable of doing things that prehistoric people did ;/.

arturobandini said:
It indeed has some nice features, but as long it does not have:
- a file explorer,
- an easy way to manage Office files
- an easy way to send Office and pdf files
- USB drive
- Skydrive client on the phone
I don't find it business oriented enough
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
neither was iphone or android on first release. It will take time. I can't blame MS for taking this approach. Business users were not keeping winmo numbers up enough by themselves (along with the techies). So they are trying entertainment first with business features coming.
raven_raven said:
Gimme a break. There is nothing bad in wanting to squash from your phone more than it gave you out of the box. Now you sound like some iPhone user
"Simply is simply better cause it's simply and I don't need nothing more". We spend hundrets of dollars to buy a capable phone, not a pretty device capable of doing things that prehistoric people did ;/.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing wrong with trying to get more out of your phone.
Something wrong with HAVING to install fixes right out of the box.

would it be possible to get windows mobile 7 working?

I was wondering if was even possible, i noticed that verizon doesn't even have a windows mobile 7 phone and i'd like to play with it for a bit and yes the whole xbox live thing interests me

Then you will have to wait for verizon to have a WP7 Phone. Even if a rom was somehow ported over and made to work with the Increbile, it would be very limited, and it's already been said that the xbox live function would not be able to work. I don't have the link for it but a quick google search should net you that information.

Bobboman said:
I was wondering if was even possible, i noticed that verizon doesn't even have a windows mobile 7 phone and i'd like to play with it for a bit and yes the whole xbox live thing interests me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bobboman, that would be an interesting concept. I wrote the thread regarding possibly porting over a BBerry 6 styled UI, but no takers and don't even know if it is possible at that.
MIUI gives you an iPhoneish experience and that makes me believe if somebody invested their time in prepping such a ROM resembling WP7 or BBerry 6, it could be accomplished. Again, i'm just speculating here, but I like where your head is at and I too look forward to anything our crazy bad ass Dev's come up with.

it really would, i did like MIUI but at the same time it felt way too much like the Iphone for me to continue using it though my ex girlfriend is using it on her droid OG

Bobboman said:
it really would, i did like MIUI but at the same time it felt way too much like the Iphone for me to continue using it though my ex girlfriend is using it on her droid OG
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had the same issue. The trick to miui is using the aosp elements theme. No more iPhoney icons.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App

There is a WP7 theme, if you just want the look. The info is in Android Themes and Apps.

AlpineM3 said:
Bobboman, that would be an interesting concept. I wrote the thread regarding possibly porting over a BBerry 6 styled UI, but no takers and don't even know if it is possible at that.
MIUI gives you an iPhoneish experience and that makes me believe if somebody invested their time in prepping such a ROM resembling WP7 or BBerry 6, it could be accomplished. Again, i'm just speculating here, but I like where your head is at and I too look forward to anything our crazy bad ass Dev's come up with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cooking a ROM that has a similar feel to WP7 and actually porting it (which is what the OP wants) are two entirely different animals. Customizing the appearance of the UI is one thing... actually implementing the functionality that's core to WP7 is an entirely different animal. Since WP7 is not open source, a successful port is extremely problematic at best... even Android to Android ports have their limitations (such as those found in the Desire Z ports).

najaboy said:
Cooking a ROM that has a similar feel to WP7 and actually porting it (which is what the OP wants) are two entirely different animals. Customizing the appearance of the UI is one thing... actually implementing the functionality that's core to WP7 is an entirely different animal. Since WP7 is not open source, a successful port is extremely problematic at best... even Android to Android ports have their limitations (such as those found in the Desire Z ports).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for actually trying to explain the difficulty in porting such a ROM instead of bashing me for asking or proposing a similiar idea.

AlpineM3 said:
Thanks for actually trying to explain the difficulty in porting such a ROM instead of bashing me for asking or proposing a similiar idea.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No bashing here. Some rabid purists would say, "If you want the ____ experience, you should buy a ____ phone". Hell, one of the main bennies of our phones is customization.
Like I said though, it would be possible for someone with talent (that I admittantly lack) to come up with a similar UI. But without access to source, porting the functionality that we'd want from WP7 isn't especially probable.

thanks for explaining that najaboy i figured that it was as simple as getting ahold of stock windows mobile 7 giving it the Inc drivers and going from there
i saw that the HD2 is running it so i thought it might be possible to bring it to the inc even with basic functionality if i knew how to even attempt it i would my self
and yea themeing is not something i'm interested in, i do like the stock look of android but windows mobile 7 would be fun to play with i think
and saying if you like it so much why don't you buy it is such a stupid thing to say as 1) verizon doesn't have it and 2) when i upgraded to the incredible windows mobile 7 wasn't even out yet

Wp7 vs 6.5 Development

I have an HD2 and before Android was fully ported over there were tons of Windows Mobile 6.5 ROMS to choose from. I am planning on selling my HD2 and possibly getting a HD7 but first wanted to get some input from you all. Right now I am running WP7 on my HD2 but really want to get an actual phone that runs WP7. So before I jump in to the WP7 scene I was wondering where do you all see the WP7 development in the short future? Mainly with custom ROMS and apps. Would you say it will probably follow the same path as 6.5 because as of now it looks pretty bad? Thanks guys!

When they make it possible to do real development/testing without shelling out $99/yr, I'll look into it.
Microsoft's development tools are second to none, but the API situation is just unacceptable right now. Marketplace is full of redundant crap, and that largely because the base platform is not done yet.
It really depends on what you want to develop, though...

N8ter said:
When they make it possible to do real development/testing without shelling out $99/yr, I'll look into it.
Microsoft's development tools are second to none, but the API situation is just unacceptable right now. Marketplace is full of redundant crap, and that largely because the base platform is not done yet.
It really depends on what you want to develop, though...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mango development kits are going out to developers next month. You do know that, right?

Jim Coleman said:
Mango development kits are going out to developers next month. You do know that, right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm fully aware, and while that helps develop some apps, it won't help users get them on their phones because they won't have Mango for another ~month.
Nor will it help me use my device for development without paying a $99 premium (the walled garden model is a bit disingenuous to developers, IMO).
Also, next month != now Especially for a bunch of APIs that shouldn't have been missing to begin with, Lol.

The OP asked about the future, so clearly, next month is part of the near future, right? You just need to bring your pessimistic venom in here too, huh.
To the OP, as far as ROMs go, WP7 wasn't designed with that in mind, and to be honest, you really don't need custom ROMs, as they really wouldn't add anything. The UI, as I'm sure even people like N8ter would agree, is second to none in terms of efficiency, and with time, the features will greatly increase (like the Mango live tiles, the concept of Nokia 3D tiles). Where in WM6.5 we NEEDED to flash to make the phone usable, we don't need that with WP7.
As for apps, as of now, the apps are pushing the allowed apis to their limits for the most part. Microsoft was pretty shelled with their apis on the initial release, and that was due to missing functionality. With the Mango api, you'll see a slew of apps hit the marketplace, big named apps such as Skype to be more specific as the platform will flash much more impressive features. In the next month and a half to two months we'll get an idea as to what ideas will start forming with these new apis, but look for the releases to be huge.
Games are about to take off in an even bigger way too, with big names like Hydro Thunder and Angry Birds starting to come out, and I see more coming with time, and available features.
With that being said, I suggest you try the phone out for yourself, as it isn't for everybody. If you're somebody who insists on having a registry editor just *because* you feel the need to look at one, then this isn't for you. Or if you feel you need full device control for absolutely no reason, this isn't for you. But if you enjoy a phone that just works, and does what it's currently capable of extremely well, then you've got a winner.

N8ter said:
I'm fully aware, and while that helps develop some apps, it won't help users get them on their phones because they won't have Mango for another ~month.
Nor will it help me use my device for development without paying a $99 premium (the walled garden model is a bit disingenuous to developers, IMO).
Also, next month != now Especially for a bunch of APIs that shouldn't have been missing to begin with, Lol.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dreamspark...

Thanks guys for the info! Like I said, I am running WP7 on my HD2 right now because the whole Android hype wore out on me. I am loving it right now but as updates are getting harder and taking longer to port over I just see it easier to get an actual WP7 phone. This is exactly what I wanted to hear since I was traumatized with the lack WM 6.5 apps, especially good ones.
So from what I read it looks like in the next couple of weeks and months WP7 is definitely going to take off. So long Android!!

Wp7 is pretty stable for everyday use. Its just missing some features, but to a normal everyday usage you won't miss them. Even with the nodo update I still don't use copy and paste. But if you're into total control and customization you should stick with an Android phone.
Sent from my HD7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

I don't think we need custom roms.
All they did was speed up the system etc. They were needed on WM because it sucked and on Android to remove bloatware, custom firmwares, speed it up etc.
WP7 doesn't need Speeding Up and there's no Bloatware or anything like that to remove. I don't see what a custom rom would achieve.

i think there is no realy need for curstom roms, too. There is a need for some missing features which will come and i dont think they can be done on homebrew way.
App situation at the moment is a bit limited and with mango this will get much better (for example -> photosynth), so i think, the real app "explosion" at wp7 market comes with mango (and nokia market start)
My opinion

domineus said:
dreamspark...
Click to expand...
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I'm not a college student. Dreamspark doesn't exist to me.

N8ter said:
Nor will it help me use my device for development without paying a $99 premium (the walled garden model is a bit disingenuous to developers, IMO).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Better get used to it because this won't change. Apple has been doing this with great success so I don't see this going away.

DaFlake said:
Better get used to it because this won't change. Apple has been doing this with great success so I don't see this going away.
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Click to collapse
I don't expect it to go away. I just code for Android instead.