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Well, if HTC won't do it, someone needs to... I want to see if it can be done. Can we create our own ATi Imageon Drivers for the MSM7200/7500?
step 1: Find out which Imageon is in there...
Here's the official list
I just hope it's not some custom job!
Think it's worth a go?
^^Bump^^
This definitely needs to be done. I wish I had the know how to develop this but unfortunately I don't.
you should really try posting this somewhere else, like maybe in the development and hacking forum, since the vogue is not the only device that suffers from this.
this is really a great idea in my opinion, and im sure there are those out there that know how to get it done!
Would be awesome, but it seems like it would be a huge undertaking. I'd imagine that Qualcomm has it locked in some way, preventing it's use if the license to use that component wasn't purchased as part of the hardware platform. I really have no idea though. I'll keep hoping : )
A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step... we have a ton of talent here, HTC and Qualcomm don't seem to want to release it... I think that it might be time to start building our own.
Post copied to development and hacking but I quoted first post of this thread to give proper credit for the idea.
I remember reading somewhere that there is actually a $2000 (and growing) cash prize for the msm 7xxx drivers. Totally support the idea.
yep... I think it's up to 7 grand now.
I'm going to wait until the end of March before I start anything.
Draiko said:
yep... I think it's up to 7 grand now.
I'm going to wait until the end of March before I start anything.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well if anyone could point me to link i willing to offer 200 to play quake on my phone
problem is that writing device drivers is the hardest program one can get into
the driver is limited to a very tiny mem footprint and must never be alowed to crash
even if the memory it's using is lost on the heap
and one needs access to alot of whitepapirs from the hardware maker
which is prob why htc did such a poor job writing then driver themselfs
because they were too cheap to pay qualcomm for it
Rudegar said:
problem is that writing device drivers is the hardest program one can get into
the driver is limited to a very tiny mem footprint and must never be alowed to crash
even if the memory it's using is lost on the heap
and one needs access to alot of whitepapirs from the hardware maker
which is prob why htc did such a poor job writing then driver themselfs
because they were too cheap to pay qualcomm for it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not supposed to rain on parade day...
I used to write assembly language device drivers for embedded real-time systems. Doing so requires a high level of knowledge, experience and documentation WRT:
1. Dev & testing tools and environment
2. The target hardware (detailed doc)
3. The target OS kernel and driver hooks
4. System-level programming mind-set (different from app dev)
Quite interesting and rewarding if you have the above - quite difficult, bordering on 'not gonna happen' if you don't.
Sincere best wishes to those who give it a shot!
My entire impetus for this thread was to start gathering people with the skills and talent needed to tackle driver construction. If open-source maniacs can do it, we can too. I have some experience with assembly... the tricky part is going to be finding out the specific commands, paths, and function calls for the embedded hardware. There's going to be a LOT of trial and error involved.
I'm starting to look for the Windows CE DDK right now. Come April 1st, if there is no word from HTC, Qualcomm, or Sprint on this driver issue, I'm going to round up as many capable people as I can and try to hammer this out.
Something that might shed some more light on the entire driver issue... Uh oh
Big Uh oh...
if this ever comes together fully it will be really cool but i still dont get why SE didnt include drivers in the first place??
comeradealexi said:
if this ever comes together fully it will be really cool but i still dont get why SE didnt include drivers in the first place??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As posted before, they probably bought it at a cheaper price by having the drivers restricted. If they were to pay full price then maybe the driver would have been included. It's kind of what Palm did back in the day when they could have spent the extra $.05 for a higher quality speaker but didn't on the Palm III series. I'm pretty sure this is a cost cutting technique used by most electronics manufacturers.
if im paying £500 for a device why not stick $0.5 on the bill! thats a shame
Damn right. I agree with all you guys.
The fact that I cannot get graphics hardware acceleration from a 500 USD+ device is absolutely ridiculous.
I love my Xperia X1, but in hindsight, I would've NEVER supported any product like this had I known it was the case.
Shame on HTC and Sony for swindling their customer from the "rich, multimedia experience" they promise so much.
Bastard Sony/HTC.
well boot android and youll have more qualcomm support..since they own the gpu chip msm7xxx devices uses now, thats what chipset all official android handsets use, even non htc android phones.
ajclai08 said:
well boot android and youll have more qualcomm support..since they own the gpu chip msm7xxx devices uses now, thats what chipset all official android handsets use, even non htc android phones.
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Click to collapse
and thus, there is driver support natively in android for us?
If that's true, what's stopping us from reverse-engineering the android driver and building a WinMo driver?
If we had a starting point, it's feasible--but without a starting point (or white papers), it's impossible.
i completely agree with this we have waited enough for the garbage companies to put out. Ive gone through three HTC phones already with graphics Acceleration turned OFF... WTF!!!
hi all,
I read this thread just now:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=857188
I wanna talk about the same thing but that thread has been closed.
According to some website, I found both G10 and iPhone4 are based on ARM architecture. I have use IDA to analyse some files in iOS 4.2.1 update packages and I found it use ARM7 instruction set. So I think there is still some possibility to port iOS kernel to G10. Is there anyone who also interested on this? Could you tell me something useful about this project? Thanks a lot.
BTW: If you think this post makes no means, please do not laugh at me as the guys who has done this in the thread above. I only talk about my idea. Although this idea maybe impossible to be implemented. I hope you can give me some adivse, information or others, not your ridicule. Thanks in advance.
It's about as likely as getting windows phone 7 to work on the DHD. Without the source it's probably an impossible undertaking as the kernel will need to be rewritten with the correct hooks and drivers to work on the DHD.
-----
Someone Swyped my idea.
dr.m0x said:
It's about as likely as getting windows phone 7 to work on the DHD. Without the source it's probably an impossible undertaking as the kernel will need to be rewritten with the correct hooks and drivers to work on the DHD.
-----
Someone Swyped my idea.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I was agree with your opinion. The driver is really needed to be written for a new device. But for some basic peripheral such as touch-screen, may have a common driver between iphone and desire hd?
jilingshu said:
Yes, I was agree with your opinion. The driver is really needed to be written for a new device. But for some basic peripheral such as touch-screen, may have a common driver between iphone and desire hd?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Highly unlikely in my opinion, if you want iOs on your phone buy an iphone.
BTW I'm sure if you did manage the port you would be unable to connect to iTunes to install apps so would be restricted to clydia etc
ghostofcain said:
Highly unlikely in my opinion, if you want iOs on your phone buy an iphone.
BTW I'm sure if you did manage the port you would be unable to connect to iTunes to install apps so would be restricted to clydia etc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just discuss about the possibility and gather information about this. So, do not suggest me to buy a iPhone. BTW: I'd like to buy a iPad2 when it released.
Why would you want iOS on a DHD?
That would be a downgrade
sromer said:
Why would you want iOS on a DHD?
That would be a downgrade
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nowadays Android can run well on iPhone. So why not try to port iOS to Android phone?
I think a major issue would be the screen resolution; the DHD runs at 800x480 and the iphone4 runs at something like 960x640 this would mean that everything would just be wrong, and most probably wouldn't do anything at all. I don't think that it would really be viable for a dev to work on something like this, especially as quite a few of us (me for example) moved away from iOS for Android.
Wuzz3r said:
I think a major issue would be the screen resolution; the DHD runs at 800x480 and the iphone4 runs at something like 960x640 this would mean that everything would just be wrong, and most probably wouldn't do anything at all. I don't think that it would really be viable for a dev to work on something like this, especially as quite a few of us (me for example) moved away from iOS for Android.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hmm... Resolution is a issue only for application developers... It should not be a problem for kernel porting I think.
i have been highly involved in OSX86 which is where you are porting mac osx to work on windows machines and from that, i can safely say that this project would involve so much work that you are essentially rewriting the whole OS
panyan said:
i have been highly involved in OSX86 which is where you are porting mac osx to work on windows machines and from that, i can safely say that this project would involve so much work that you are essentially rewriting the whole OS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. To driver the peripheral device, we have to write all the driver or at least, modify the original driver. Without the source code, this would be too hard.
BTW: Is it possible for us to port xnu(or the kernel of mac os x) to ARM platform just as iOS do?
And why would you want to
Sent from my leedroid 1..... ah the latest one Desire HD
you don't have iOS source right, you will have to disassemble and go thorugh lots of code, replace a lot of things, then fix so that every thing works in a flow..
This will take years! with no assurance of success again. you may also have to find security holes in iOS again to load it on a different phone.
If you had the source then few months!
Not to mention a possible law suit from Apple.
Hi folks.....it s possible have dualboot on DHD?how to install win7 on DHD? It s possible porting os6 of blackberry on DHD or HD2? thanks.....
^^^^ no its not possible right to put up Win7 on DHD! don't think anybody is going to work on that also.
But Win7 is ported to HD2, or not? Correct me, if i'm wrong. And if it's ported to HD2, it should be possible to port it to the DHD.
I think the problem is only the boot not the porting....because on the HD2 is possible load win7, linux, winxp, android, ecc ecc.....
IOs is like having an Sexually transmitted disease like chlamydia
Its common amongst people and has bad effects on the market.
fkofilee said:
IOs is like having an Sexually transmitted disease like chlamydia
Its common amongst people and has bad effects on the market.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok,epic!
Anyway,why would anyone want iOS?I find it pure bs.But even if there was a way and a reason,would porting it be important enough to put you against Apple?Because,and excuse me everyone for the language I use,the bastards over at apple can sue you for naming a product with an "i" in front!
Ok, so here is my theory why it is taking Microsoft so long to release updates and bug fixes. I think the Windows Phone team is currently recoding Metro to run on top of Windows 8 instead of Windows CE. All the updates they are talking about down the road will be integrated into the new Windows 8 platform. Anyone else think this may be the case.
randude said:
Ok, so here is my theory why it is taking Microsoft so long to release updates and bug fixes. I think the Windows Phone team is currently recoding Metro to run on top of Windows 8 instead of Windows CE. All the updates they are talking about down the road will be integrated into the new Windows 8 platform. Anyone else think this may be the case.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That'd be EPIC if it were true.
I'm fairly confident that WP8 will indeed run ontop of Windows 8.
why ?
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.
ohgood said:
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I very much enjoy my WP7 device thank you. There is no reason for me not to want a WP8 next year.
In any case, merging Windows CE and Windows "proper" makes perfect sense. I see no good reason to maintain two completely different codebases (Windows CE and Windows 8) once Windows runs on ARM. In many ways there is no need for a complete rewrite as Windows CE (albeit very old) was always the ARM (or, mobile if you wish) version of Windows - it includes many of the very same underlaying principles.
What many people are missing is that WP7 is not an OS as such, the OS is Windows CE. WP7 is the shell. Porting this to Windows 8 should require much less effort than maintaining WinCE.
Since [most] all third-party WP7 apps are frameworked it also means any existing apps will work on WP8.
If done correctly (and I know, this is Microsoft we are talking about - chances are slim) it would also enable devs to code/design apps for Windows Phone and Windows Slate simultaneously. Rather than offer two different versions the app would adapt to the form-factor it's currently running on.
I think they have to. Especially at the rate the competition is going, they will have to merge. They will have to do it fast, if they want to stay relevant.
from what I've read, many people feel that Microsoft will release "Mango" as 7.5, and then WP8 to coencide with Windows 8...bumping up a version number doesn't mean it's a total rewrite...just that it adds enough features to be considered a major enough update to get a new number. For example, iOS 4 wasn't a rewrite of iOS 3, and android 2.x isn't a total rewrite of android 1.x
vetvito said:
I think they have to. Especially at the rate the competition is going, they will have to merge. They will have to do it fast, if they want to stay relevant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, and I'm sure Apple is going to have OS/X on Phones and Tablets next year.
I swear some of you people don't even think this through completely before making such baseless statements.
There's nothing saying they have to merge.
Windows just needed ARM support, which is basically done (and Microsoft probably was working on it for years beforehand - CE already basically worked on ARM and they've supported other platforms in the past) and of course another UI layer which they are working on.
However, this says nothing about the tons of Windows Apps which are optimized for non-touch keyboard+mouse use that will be basically broken on a touchscreen device.
You can use any HP touchscreen computer and see just how clunky a Win32 application is on a touchscreen computer. I don't see a majority of vendors running to revamp their application UIs to support touch, and a UI layer cannot do this on the fly due to the multitude of layouts, etc. used in Win32 applications.
Most vendors will basically have to create a touch and non-touch version of their applications.
That's why Apple is using iOS and not OS/X on their iPad. Icons and Widgets work better on larger tablet screens than Tiles, so while WP7 looks great on phones and certainly scales really well to larger/higher res displays... It would look terribad on a tablet, and lead to a ridiculous amount of wasted screen real estate.
I swear you must have misinterpreted my post.
Who said anything about OSX on a phone?
Jobs already said that wouldn't happen. IOS, WebOS(debatable) , and Android will continue to pave the future. Unless Microsoft does something, and I'm not talking about a Windows 7 tablet.
Windows is slow as hell compared to the competition. Look at Windows Media Center, and loom at Google TV, Apple TV.
ohgood said:
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That does not explain why MS failed to solve all the bugs listed here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9153088&postcount=1
the NoDo update, that arrived so late, shall logically have solved must of the above mentioned bugs/issues. But it didn't.
What are MS waiting for? They behave like they have no competitors.
If the applications are all managed code than who cares whether it's WinCE or Win32?
vangrieg said:
If the applications are all managed code than who cares whether it's WinCE or Win32?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are some differences between Silverlight on Windows Phone and Desktop. I believe Silverlight on Windows Phone is a fork of Silverlight 3, whereas the desktop is currently Silverlight 4. It'd be nice to see them converge at Silverlight 5 (crossing fingers for MIX 2011). I've heard plenty of rumors that Microsoft is at work on the compatibility issues.
Sure, but Silverlight can be updated with or without changing the underlying OS.
N8ter said:
I swear some of you people don't even think this through completely before making such baseless statements.
There's nothing saying they have to merge.
Windows just needed ARM support, which is basically done (and Microsoft probably was working on it for years beforehand - CE already basically worked on ARM and they've supported other platforms in the past) and of course another UI layer which they are working on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right - there is nothing saying they have to. It makes sense business wise though. Rather than having two teams working full out maintaining two similar yet very different OSes they can have one team working on maintaining one OS running on both platforms.
CE does run on ARM, it has done so for years and it's been in use in the enterprise sector for as long. Problem is, WinCE, even in it's later versions is old tech. Not just from a UI perspective but the core OS is old tech.
N8ter said:
However, this says nothing about the tons of Windows Apps which are optimized for non-touch keyboard+mouse use that will be basically broken on a touchscreen device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They won't be broken. They will function just as they have always done - with a mouse and/or keyboard. You can't take any old Win32 app and run it on ARM anyway, that's not the idea behind it at all.
N8ter said:
Most vendors will basically have to create a touch and non-touch version of their applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, no. They don't have to do anything of the kind. They can do so to stay relevant - especially if their app is the type of app that would be useful on a tablet, but they don't have to. Just because Win8 will have a tablet specific UI does not mean it will not also have the old desktop UI we're all used to. You need to make a distinction between OS and UI, they are two very different things.
arturobandini said:
That does not explain why MS failed to solve all the bugs listed here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9153088&postcount=1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While I agree, there are still some bugs in the OS, NoDo did fix the major ones. Most of the remaining ones are non reproducible or actually "as designed". Also, many of them are not OS bugs but rather bugs that only appear on certain handsets.
PG2G said:
There are some differences between Silverlight on Windows Phone and Desktop. I believe Silverlight on Windows Phone is a fork of Silverlight 3, whereas the desktop is currently Silverlight 4. It'd be nice to see them converge at Silverlight 5 (crossing fingers for MIX 2011). I've heard plenty of rumors that Microsoft is at work on the compatibility issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, but that's of little concern really. As long as SLx is backwards compatible - which it will be, all existing apps will continue to run just fine. Also, with Silverlight finally coming to the Xbox they have all three screens covered (personally I would have preferred a new iteration of Media Center, but there's still time for that) - TV, Desktop and Mobile. The idea is that we as developers can code/design for the audience rather than the platform. Great things ahead if you ask me.
vetvito said:
I swear you must have misinterpreted my post.
Who said anything about OSX on a phone?
Jobs already said that wouldn't happen. IOS, WebOS(debatable) , and Android will continue to pave the future. Unless Microsoft does something, and I'm not talking about a Windows 7 tablet.
Windows is slow as hell compared to the competition. Look at Windows Media Center, and loom at Google TV, Apple TV.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AppleTV and GoogleTV are Appliance products. Microsoft did have a TV thing a while back, but that's another story. Windows Media Center is fine.
If people aren't expecting Apple to put OS/X on tablets, etc. Why would you make a statement basically they have no choice but to merge WP7 and Windows eventually?
Also, I was talking about Windows 8 (which runs on ARM, and is coming with touch UI), not Windows 7...
N8ter said:
AppleTV and GoogleTV are Appliance products. Microsoft did have a TV thing a while back, but that's another story. Windows Media Center is fine.
If people aren't expecting Apple to put OS/X on tablets, etc. Why would you make a statement basically they have no choice but to merge WP7 and Windows eventually?
Also, I was talking about Windows 8 (which runs on ARM, and is coming with touch UI), not Windows 7...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My choice of words was wrong. My bad. I was meaning that they should do something, something faster than what they are doing. Phones are moving closer and closer to PC capabilities.
Windows Media Center sucks balls compared to Google TV, and Apple TV. I'm seriously thinking about throwing my HTPC out the window. Its embarrassing. I mentioned it because Microsoft basically invented this market, and now they've been left behind. Sort of like what's going on now.
vetvito said:
Windows Media Center sucks balls compared to Google TV, and Apple TV. I'm seriously thinking about throwing my HTPC out the window. Its embarrassing. I mentioned it because Microsoft basically invented this market, and now they've been left behind. Sort of like what's going on now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows Media Center is still the absolute best platform out there. Google TV has nothing on MC7. That said, they [MS] have definitely mismanaged the "platform", I say "platform" because Microsoft never saw it as a platform (God knows why?!). WES (Windows Embedded - which is basically a modularized version of Windows 7) should change this though. There were a few MC7 appliances on show at CES earlier this year and if they can deliver they will kill the competition.
From a WAF perspective nothing is close to MC7. From a live TV perspective the other platforms aren't even in the same ballpark.
emigrating said:
Windows Media Center is still the absolute best platform out there. Google TV has nothing on MC7. That said, they [MS] have definitely mismanaged the "platform", I say "platform" because Microsoft never saw it as a platform (God knows why?!). WES (Windows Embedded - which is basically a modularized version of Windows 7) should change this though. There were a few MC7 appliances on show at CES earlier this year and if they can deliver they will kill the competition.
From a WAF perspective nothing is close to MC7. From a live TV perspective the other platforms aren't even in the same ballpark.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd like to know more. Honestly elaborate more. Media Center is awfully slow compared to Google TV. I don't have a gtv, but I demoed it. You can search for shows and the web in a overlay of what you're currently watching on gtv. On my HTPC running windows 7, that's impossible. Starting Media Center is unbelievably slow, and browsing through media in media center is not fun. Its laggy as hell. On GTV its instant.
vetvito said:
I'd like to know more. Honestly elaborate more. Media Center is awfully slow compared to Google TV. I don't have a gtv, but I demoed it. You can search for shows and the web in a overlay of what you're currently watching on gtv. On my HTPC running windows 7, that's impossible. Starting Media Center is unbelievably slow, and browsing through media in media center is not fun. Its laggy as hell. On GTV its instant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you find MC7 to be slow there is a problem with your machine (either hardware or software wise). I'm running it on several HTPCs in the house and there is no lag what so ever.
Comparing it to Google TV is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruits, but that's pretty much it. Google TV does not have a live TV option as such - you have to feed the output of your DVR or whatever thru the gtv box. MC7 on the other hand accepts tuners (either local or remote) and acts as your DVR.
If you press the Guide button on your MC7 remote while watching TV it will overlay ontop of what you're watching, exactly like gtv. The guide is also one of the best in the industry (depending on your location of course). You also get [some] internet TV built in, but more can be added by installing a Hulu plugin. In addition you have Netflix etc.
I will agree that browsing the media on MC7 using the built-in functionality is rather lacking, but there are plenty of third-party apps that help with this. myTV is great for downloaded/recorded TV shows and My Movies is great for movies.
I've been using HTPCs for around 10 years and MC7 is IMO still the best option available and I've tried them all - multiple times
I'm running on a AMD 6000, dual core 3.2 ghz. 4gb of ram. That's more than enough for media.
Have you tried XBMC? It runs circles around Media Center. I haven't tried those plugins you mentioned, I will do that today.
It's a beta! It's buggy, it's slow (at least on a Surface RT).
If you use your tablet daily, stay away from this thing. Wait for the full release.
SilverHedgehog said:
It's a beta! It's buggy, it's slow (at least on a Surface RT).
If you use your tablet daily, stay away from this thing. Wait for the full release.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
expecting bumps. so far it's good and I am not experiencing any hiccups yet. I very much like the changes.
cheers
Well, I found it rather buggy - though considering how I use it, I'm rather surprised how well it works in 8.0. Still, a warning might be a good idea - I'm sick of people attacking companies when beta software is behaving like beta software.
It's also so limited in terms of the number of devices and regions it will actually install in, I rather get the impression it was a real rush job to try and show that improvements are at least coming at some point.
SilverHedgehog said:
It's a beta! It's buggy, it's slow (at least on a Surface RT).
If you use your tablet daily, stay away from this thing. Wait for the full release.
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Click to collapse
I don`t stand by you .I think the RT 8.1 is perfect。The experience on my surface RT is nice
seven7xiaoyang said:
I don`t stand by you .I think the RT 8.1 is perfect。The experience on my surface RT is nice
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Click to collapse
I second that.. My Surface is faster and smoother now. Especially with IE11. I have no more lags or getting the Browser to freeze. I love it!
I have the 8.1 Preview on my Surface RT and it seems fine. I wouldn't caution anybody against it based on what I've seen so far.
Tk
ToddKlindt said:
I have the 8.1 Preview on my Surface RT and it seems fine. I wouldn't caution anybody against it based on what I've seen so far.
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Click to collapse
Jailbreak. 'Nuff said.
Using Spotify crashes the browser - worked perfectly in 8.0.
A reminder to all who find bugs: PLEASE report them to MS! This is our last chance to ask Microsoft to fix things while the software is in development. Once it ships and gets handed off to a maintenance team, changes will be much slower to arrive.
Note: while the continued restriction on running our own desktop apps is not strictly a bug, this is also a good time to complain to MS about that; it's a very easy policy for them to change, if they decide it would be worth it!
So far my experience with windows rt. 8.1 is very nice. I like the outlook 2013, the keyboard and the response time of the tablet.
GoodDayToDie said:
A reminder to all who find bugs: PLEASE report them to MS! This is our last chance to ask Microsoft to fix things while the software is in development. Once it ships and gets handed off to a maintenance team, changes will be much slower to arrive.
Note: while the continued restriction on running our own desktop apps is not strictly a bug, this is also a good time to complain to MS about that; it's a very easy policy for them to change, if they decide it would be worth it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to read up on win32 vs. RT as well as some basic application architecture, then you will see why your complaint isn't valid.
Just because it has a pretty desktop and a run box doesn't mean apps magically work... Code for winform apps has to be compiled for arm vs x86/x64 to function and that just isn't going to happen. Explorer is there for a shim/stopgap.. By win9, will likely be gone for good.
This is like winnt on alpha and 2008 on titanium all over again... Except its now in the hands of consumers that don't understand what's going on under the covers.
MS should have never put a traditional desktop/explorer in RT and just finished the port of apps to modernui because its confusing to the average user.
Just think if apple had a shortcut in iOS to give you a macosx desktop that didn't run Mac apps..
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
@libbycm: Despite being here even longer than I have, you appear to have no idea who you're talking to *or* what you're talking about.
I maintain the Ported Apps thread for RT, and have ported a few of them myself (and should get back into it with something more realistic than Chrome, which I still hope to get working Some Day Soon Now). I am quite *personally* familiar with the requirements of porting, the difficulties of working around missing functionality (almost all of which, it should be noted, is missing by design and not neccessity), and the realities of what an ARM processor can and cannot do.
First of all, .NET apps (including WinForms ones and even once that use COM or P/Invoke to system libraries) work just fine, no recompile needed. That's a pretty small portion of the overall Windows software ecosystem, of course, but it's a growing one and also it's one that would be seen as worth targeting by more developers if they saw an actual benefit to architecture-independent toolchains on Windows.
Second, and related to the first, .NET is far from the only architecture-independent language. Java (though IKVM, though .NET) kind of works on RT already; it wouldn't take much to make a serious platform worthy of an official port. Same for Python, and we already have Perl. Yeah, that's still miniscule next to the bulk of legacy x86 code, but it would nonetheless make RT a far more popular platform (for example, many of the Windows bittorrent clients are either Java or Python code, and some very popular games are written in those languages).
Third, even with the crippled tools that we have cobbled together to do our porting, and despite the fact that it's all done on our own time, we've managed a fair number of native ports already. There'd be far more if it weren't for the fact that we can't port closed-source programs (and many open-source ones don't happily compile under MSVC, which is the only RT-targeting compiler we have right now). Already, a growing number of programs are natively available on x64 - after all, it's just a drop-down selection and another click on "Build" in Visual Studio. Well, the same is true of RT. It wouldn't get legacy software, but there's no reason that *new* software released in the last half year - even proprietary commercial stuff - couldn't support RT. After all, it's more customer base for almost no additional work (supporting x64 is sometimes actually more work than supported ARM; at least ARM uses the same-width pointers as x86).
Fourth, legacy code is - by its very nature - older code and generally suitable for running on less-powerful systems. You mentioned Apple... but you failed to mention that when Apple went from 68k CPUs to PowerPC CPUs, and then from PPC to x86, they used mostly-transparent emulation layers to bridge those gaps. Yeah, the code ran slower, but it ran well enough for most purposes. Yeah, ARM is *less* powerful than x86, not more powerful (although you could argue that the same is true for some use cases when going from a G5 to a first-gen Core Duo), but we've also gotten better at this emulation thing. When Apple did it before, they hired the best folks in the business, and pushed the entire field of CPU emulation forward with their need to make it work. When Microsoft declined to do that, one guy on XDA took it upon himself, in his free time, with only a partial toolchain and no access to Windows internals, hacking on open-source pieces, and built a transparent emulation layer for RT. Microsoft's Windows application compatibility team almost certainly loses more man-hours in one day's bathroom breaks than @mamaich has been able to spend on that project to date, and yet some of those very same people who pushed the whole industry forward at Apple, doing things like inventing what is today called dynamic recompilation, now work at Microsoft. They have the expertise to make it work if they'd wanted to.
Fifth, Windows on Itanium failed (mostly; it's still being used, just not developed) because Itaniums were targeted specifically at the enterprise market but weren't very good even there; there's plenty of software for that instruction set in the aforementioned market. Alpha (never mind Windows on Alpha, which I actually know people who used and worked on) failed because DEC wanted outrageous sums of money for it, seeking high-end margins instead of embracing the commodity market. Had they done otherwise, they might even still exist as a company today. NT on MIPS and PPC was similarly niche, targeting brand new (and poorly-merketed) segments that didn't have great penetration in the ecosystem (NT for PPC was a server/workstation OS, not a MacOS alternative). Unlike all those achitectures, though, ARM is well established in the consumer market for commodity computers, and its market share there is growing. If Microsoft is serious about succeeding with RT (and I think they are), they should look at the success story in that market... and it's not Apple anymore. Despite Apple's huge first-mover advantage with the consumer market, Android is rolling over them. Yet Microsoft seems determined to repeat many of Apple's mistakes, despite having precious few of its advantages. They need to make themselves a better Android, not a me-too Apple clone.
Sixth, while Microsoft has made no secret of their desire to move to WinRT, I don't really forsee them having much more success with that than with their prior effort to move people to .NET; lots of small developers will go, but the big programs that are the movers and shakers of the Windows world will stick with the vastly more powerful, flexible, and (frankly) useful Win32 API. Porting an app to RT is a hell of a lot harder than porting x86 native code to ARM, though...
I never used Linux never knew anyone who has. What can you run on Linux game wise? Can you play any Windows games on Linux? What is the newest version of Linux? How do you buy computer parts to make a Linux computer? All I ever seen is Windows logo on parts. Whats the advantages compared to Windows? How does one get it one a computer does if come on a disk or flash someplace?
Thank you
Rbohannon89 said:
I never used Linux never knew anyone who has. What can you run on Linux game wise? Can you play any Windows games on Linux? What is the newest version of Linux? How do you buy computer parts to make a Linux computer? All I ever seen is Windows logo on parts. Whats the advantages compared to Windows? How does one get it one a computer does if come on a disk or flash someplace? Thank you
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Click to collapse
I haven't used Linux directly in quite a long time but, the following threads may be helpful in understanding it a bit better. Don't be afraid to ask for some member guidance within one of them too.
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1459153
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2723240
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=3300596
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=3530696
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2885245
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1076138
There's others out there but, this will give you a good start...
Good Luck!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I DO NOT provide support via PM unless asked/requested by myself. PLEASE keep it in the threads where everyone can share.
I looked at them but that didn't answer any my question.
There is Steam on Linux. And lot of games are available on Linux. You can't play all windows games on Linux .
http://store.steampowered.com/linux
Windows is like an LTS OS if compared to Linux.
So Ubuntu 16.04 is a safe.
Some OS are updated on daily basis like Arch , Debian.
Some every 6 months like Linux Mint & Ubuntu ,
Linux runs on everything. So basically , as long as you have a computing device.
As far as custom Linux PC is concerned, checkout System76.
https://system76.com/
There are nice builds and they come with good support.
karandpr said:
There is Steam on Linux. And lot of games are available on Linux. You can't play all windows games on Linux .
http://store.steampowered.com/linux
Windows is like an LTS OS if compared to Linux.
So Ubuntu 16.04 is a safe.
Some OS are updated on daily basis like Arch , Debian.
Some every 6 months like Linux Mint & Ubuntu ,
Linux runs on everything. So basically , as long as you have a computing device.
As far as custom Linux PC is concerned, checkout System76.
https://system76.com/
There are nice builds and they come with good support.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What is the advantages and disadvantages in having linux? Also what do most people use it for everyday personal use?
Rbohannon89 said:
What is the advantages and disadvantages in having linux? Also what do most people use it for everyday personal use?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Linux just works. Windows has lot of software. Mac is really optimized.
People use Linux to devlop software mostly. Cos it's has great support for development and most servers run on linux.
Windows is still for people who want variety of software and games.
karandpr said:
Linux just works. Windows has lot of software. Mac is really optimized.
People use Linux to devlop software mostly. Cos it's has great support for development and most servers run on linux.
Windows is still for people who want variety of software and games.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So can I can play Windows games somehow? I'm only asking cause I'm thinking of buying a older laptop to experiment with and always curious about Linux. Wanted to play with Linux and learn it. Thanks for the response.
Rbohannon89 said:
So can I can play Windows games somehow? I'm only asking cause I'm thinking of buying a older laptop to experiment with and always curious about Linux. Wanted to play with Linux and learn it. Thanks for the response.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are lot of steam games for linux . Older games can be played using Wine or Crossover...
Don't expect to play newer games due to graphics card limitations. (DirectX and Video graphics drivers cause issues.)
Rbohannon89 said:
So can I can play Windows games somehow? I'm only asking cause I'm thinking of buying a older laptop to experiment with and always curious about Linux. Wanted to play with Linux and learn it. Thanks for the response.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
An older laptop would be a good way to start. Since it's an older laptop I don't imagine there will be an expectation to play new games on it, Windows or otherwise. Still, remains a great way to dip in and and look at Linux's potential.
Also, the make and model of the laptop can determine how well it is suited for Linux (you have mentioned the Windows stickers earlier - especially recently manufacturers have been making it difficult to allow the switch to Linux), can do a web search with 'linux' in the search, or a distribution. e.g. ...
Code:
linux support lenovo t420
debian support lenovo t420
Lenovo, HP, and Dell are big names that appear to play nice (and System76 makes PC's for Linux). Others, can be like rolling the dice.
And when I hint at a difficult time, it's usually the wi-fi, sometimes the trackpad, maybe sound, rarely something very important like video.
Not saying this to discourage, only to suggest research when it comes to any equipment, old or new. Hopefully the toughest thing would be deciding which distribution to choose - I'm enough of an old fogey to stick to versioned, long-term releases like Debian and avoid the bleeding edge "rolling releases" provide.
Hope this helps.
Oh (looking back to the first post), advantages (which are in the eye of the beholder since they can potentially hold a disadvantage):
Free (as in freedom). I like to be able to vote with my dollar, even though Linux users are rarely obligated to pay for software. This is a philosophical reason, and one can go deep down that rabbit hole, what I like is, nothing is hidden from the public eye since the software is often accompanied by source code, on request. Which makes it difficult for say, a search assistant to send unknown data back to the mother ship.
Variety of experience. If you don't like an application, a windows manager, heck even the init process, you can replace it with something else or even write your own.
Support for older hardware. Often the method to revive a five to ten (sometimes quite older - I occasionally run an up-to-date Linux-powered laptop from 2002 with very satisfactory results) year old device for a new life.
Thank you so much for the replies. What kind of hardware and era should I look for to make a smart decision to what kind of laptop to get? From someone who has never ever used linux or even seen it only used windows how hard is the learning curb? Can I load it on the the pc and just go for it or will I be massively confused?
Rbohannon89 said:
Thank you so much for the replies. What kind of hardware and era should I look for to make a smart decision to what kind of laptop to get? From someone who has never ever used linux or even seen it only used windows how hard is the learning curb? Can I load it on the the pc and just go for it or will I be massively confused?
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Click to collapse
I would go for a once-mid-to-high-end laptop of about six years old (newer run but still holding the Windows 7 stickers), from a vendor I noted before. It does not guarantee complete compatibility so you would still want to cross reference the model number.
I am not a fan of "chiclet" keyboards (I have enough difficulty typing on laptop keyboards) and have fond memories of the IBM ThinkPads (I used to own the popular 600X) that I maintain one of the final bastions before Lenovo took design tips from Apple (by the way, I hear MacBooks can have reasonable compatibility as well, though there would be an extra premium there).
For a laptop longevity perspective (the second thing to look for), a "flagship" laptop from a vendor (especially from Apple or Lenovo) means better access to (and thus generally less expensive) spare parts. To identify this on the Lenovo side, it would mean part of the "T" or "X" lineup (both are business grade; the X models just have a smaller footprint). For what it's worth, business-grade HP laptops are the "ProBook" series.
From what I understand, the learning curve is not that difficult. There have been people who knew nothing about computers that learned Linux quite easily. The challenge for a Windows user trying Linux becomes "un-learning" specific workflow to make way for new ways of doing things. Apologies I can only be general - me trying to share my experience with the learning curve is difficult since that transition was about two decades ago and Microsoft drastically changed the typical user's workflow three times between the early 1990's of my first computer and the year 2000 (MS-DOS -> Windows 3.1 -> Windows 95 -> NT5) that makes the transition from Windows 7 to 8 to 10 look like a food fight. The first year I was quite reliant on a guru (I was in the expectation to accelerate my knowledge for an upcoming project) until I was directed to not use that as a crutch. A bit sad to say, that moment I was told to "RTFM" for a simple problem was when I really started to learn.
But I would definitely not dive into the deep end (as they say) by wiping your main computer for Linux. For starters, even with decent backups (which you should be doing anyway), your data can be inaccessible (installing Linux on a fully set up PC means losing all your personal files there, and if your backup tool to other media is done by a Windows program, Linux may not support restoring that data).
It is also a quick way to become frustrated when hitting even a small roadblock. I would not use "confused" as asked above for this phenomenon. When you combine the impact of the problem with the time in which you would need it resolved by, it can create a sort of desperation on a forum when the answer could have been glaring back without realizing it. Depending on how well documented the issue's solution is (and when a problem that prevents the achievement of a deadline occours on short notice, blind spots tend to happen to even the best of us), would-be readers get frustrated as well and may criticize the lack of research. An exaggerated XDA example of this is when someone flashes a ROM on their daily driver, without any backups first, without wiping anything, and then frantic that their only phone has app force closures every five seconds - and the plane for their two week trip leaves in six hours. In short, a dedicated device to play on means you set the pace on how you want to learn.
A dedicated laptop would be the better way to go. For a no-cost (no additional hardware to buy) demo of Linux, can try a live CD (will also determine how your hardware can interact with Linux) or maintain a persistent instance through an install in Oracle VirtualBox or VMWare (which Linux will work even if your hardware does not play with Linux). Much further away from recommended territory we have the "cold turkey" method (gripes noted in previous two paragraphs), and finally - for a reason - dual-boot (which has to opportunity to hose one or both operating systems at any given moment - including your data - for as something as simple as a Windows Update).
This turned out to be longer than expected, but I hope this helps.
So it's been about 20 I don't know it's been about since 1997 that I played the Linux or Kali nethunter I was wondering if these are possible put on my smg900v or piece of crap that's the original smart phone from Samsung I don't remember the name but it still on Android Jelly Bean I believe was interested if I could take my two older phones and wipe the OS completely and make them nothing but Linux because I used to have a lot of fun with that we used to stay up and drink beers and play on it you know and then it went away in 2008 and I haven't had a cell phone in years because my work gave me one any advice would be appreciated but my youngest son would probably really be interested in it are you having dyslexia try to get him in anything also I found back in the day where they used to convert that phone to be 2G but I can't find anything but the source code and I don't know how to completely enter source code into an Android phone I had a computer I can do it on the computer but not a phone
averydiablo said:
So it's been about 20 I don't know it's been about since 1997 that I played the Linux or Kali nethunter I was wondering if these are possible put on my smg900v or piece of crap that's the original smart phone from Samsung I don't remember the name but it still on Android Jelly Bean I believe was interested if I could take my two older phones and wipe the OS completely and make them nothing but Linux because I used to have a lot of fun with that we used to stay up and drink beers and play on it you know and then it went away in 2008 and I haven't had a cell phone in years because my work gave me one any advice would be appreciated but my youngest son would probably really be interested in it are you having dyslexia try to get him in anything also I found back in the day where they used to convert that phone to be 2G but I can't find anything but the source code and I don't know how to completely enter source code into an Android phone I had a computer I can do it on the computer but not a phone
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Click to collapse
The closest thing you can do is run linux with chroot.
Here is a good post to get you started.
https://www.xda-developers.com/guid...a-gnulinux-environment-on-any-android-device/