Develop Bugs

Predictions for Enterprise/Business side of Windows Phone 7 Series?

Obviously, I think the use of the word "Series" tells me that Microsoft isn't done with the many "options" they will offer with WP7S. I think a nice enterprise/business UI is on the way as well, if not coming a bit after the holiday 2010 release.
Any predictions? I'm looking forward to this update in the Series just because my life really doesn't revolve around what my friends ate for breakfast and what movie they just went to see.
Personally, I need to make sure that I have a professional messaging/mail layout, Office, file management, VNC capabilities, and the ability to customize the UI based on limitations necessary per business needs.

1. Office Communicator Mobile with PUSH capabilities
2. Remote Device Management
3. Remote Desktop

Well, I guess Microsoft already put a lot for Business users in there: multiple Mail-Push-Systems, Sharepoint Integration and so on.
One could perhaps integrate Status messages on corporate progress from time management systems to the people screeen (and i'm pretty sure this already integrates with MS Exchange).
It comes down to what information u need and u are able to have that on the Start Screen via Live Tiles. What will be interesting is how company's will be able to deploy their custom software to the devices - as Marketplace is not the way to deploy these.
All the Social Networking Systems are just a means of adding additional information - u don't need it, u don't use it. Guess there'll be a RDP Client in there (although i hope it's more usable now, than the version in WinMo 6.5).
Remote Management - well, do you really think MS would release a phone that supports all the features of MS Exchange Active Sync but omit the manageability (disable storage card, disable camera, wipe device are not that hard to implement).

WP7 expectations before adoption

The following are the features NEEDED before I adopt WP7 as my new smartphone OS.
1. Rooted device.
2. Rooted windows share Local network access.
3. File explored => than iFile
3. Phone theme app similar to winterboard for iPhone.
4. DLNA in all forms.
5. True windows live Mesh.
6. Zune updated via explorer, no tethered or untethered syncing needed.
7. Push everything.
8. App pirating scene => apptrackr.org for iPhone.
9. Video game console emulation from all the greats.
10. IE download manager.
11. Video chat.
These needs are almost already met with my iPhone. Being a avid windows 7 and windows media center user I can see a huge advantage of adopting WP7. Devs, can u tell me how many features I can check off this list? I know some are possible with 6.x already. Feel free to add to this list for wanted features that are out of the norm.
Also I don't think I like the idea of ROM cooking. I might not understand it though, since ROM means read only memory does it mean that u have to modify your devices os before you install it in your phone? I don't like that at all. I want to be able to modify my os at anytime in explorer like u can with windows 7.

App pirating...oh yeah that's a feature that will be good for the development of the platform. Seesh, people work hard on stuff and generally charge reasonable prices to keep themselves afloat and you demand app pirating!? Dear Microsoft please allow rpoot access to the device so people can find work arounds and steal your client's good work. That's exactly the attitude which stops Microsoft from allowing root access, because its waaaaay to easy to pirate then.
What we really need is a good ad revenue generator (ie Google ads, iAds) so that innovation can be driven by the financial incentive and these guys who dev can get some well earned cash.
Anyways, whats your job? Would you like it if I asked for yur services and then you didn't get paid?
Sorry grouchy this morning. #Rant

Yea. $400 for a phone is fine but then when asked to pay $3 for an app you'll use all the time it's just too much? :facepalm:

......why the hell does a mobile browser need a download manager?

Thats what the iPhone needs to be able to download mp3s or docs from safari. I just want the ability to download a mp3 from the net in the brower and have it show up in my zune media player. The iphone requires a few jailbroken apps to achieve this at the moment.

that's native in the zune music player already you know...
1. Rooted device.
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I thought rooting was only used for android. But as far as the unlocking thing, it is device dependent. Several developers are working on finding means to give developers more freedom as well as users with wp7. but it is a work in progress and takes time.
2. Rooted windows share Local network access.
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what
3. Phone theme app similar to winterboard for iPhone.
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Does this really have to be said? I mean are you looking for an application that will allow user customization of the start menu like winterboard? If so see post 1. to be frank the theming for wp7 so far is okay but nothing as open as windows mobile. But again we have no idea what the device can really do. It is based on what is found and the extent of what development will lead to.
But if you want winterboard...well get the phone that has it
4. DLNA in all forms.
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Again unsure if wp7 can do that. It may be able to but no idea. We don't know
5. True windows live Mesh.
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Isn't live mesh going to be gone soon?
6. Zune updated via explorer, no tethered or untethered syncing needed.
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I dunno if that's really necessary. There may be a program for it most likely. But I don't think its needed in first generation wp7 devices. Heck I much prefer to just drag and drop my files or sync with zune anyway...
7. Push everything.
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Not everything has to be push...I think that as far as notification goes push may be a hindrance. I do prefer the old system though
8. App pirating scene => apptrackr.org for iPhone.
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yeah this is a fail...
9. Video game console emulation from all the greats.
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That is developer dependent and its tough to say what the emulation scene will be like...
10. IE download manager.
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Why!? Seriously why!? sorry but that's retarded. I mean how much are you downloading on your phone right now to substantiate a feature like that. remember, wp is the de emphasis of the phone being a computer but performing some basic tasks like all smart phones can do in a different way.
11. Video chat.
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It could be a developer making something for that. No one knows
As for the things being met for your iphone, keep your iphone =) if you honestly are looking for information on a platform that isn't released, wait a year until wp7 has some options available...
and for the point of not liking rom cooking, do you even know the process? No you don't. May wanna read up on it...
...
IMHO, almost everything you listed I know personally I won't be using my phone for that. I don't mind media centric information but there is overload. For suiting my needs (clinical psychology) I may need to browse some psychology databases, a dedicated pdf reader, an ebook reader, the ability to record notes from class, patient intake, and so on. But again specifics differ according to user of the device.

Thanks for the info domineus, what I mean by "Rooted windows share Local network access." is the abiltiy for my phone's whole file system to show up when I click on the network in explorer on one of the PCs in my house. The iPhone does this with ubuntu when it is jailbroken right now. Also I want the abiltity to telnet/ssh into all my home network PCs to move files around and delete them or whatever. Basicly I want total control of my home network in the command line. This feature is lacking with my iPhone right now. I bet telneting is possible in windows mobile 6.x right now isn't it?
As far as the download manager thing goes. I don't know what u use your phone for but I am constantly getting new mp3s, pics, video, and docs offline everyday. The itunes library on the phone is encrypted right now so u can't just drop and drag in iFile to add to the itunes library. Also the default safari you can't save target as to get the file. I think you can with windows mobile 6.x though, I did it at work once. Half the time I'm not around a pc to sync anyways, I feel like tethered syncing is a chore. I am pretty sure you can't "save target as" in IE with the WP7 emulator.

Yeah Ive decided....you should get the iPhone...Im pretty happy to see how the community goes but for you to make demands a lot of which are stupid or overly tailored to your specific needs and hence serve no purpose on a public forum, well thats pretty darn silly.

gotta agree its a bit solipsistic
especially on a platform that is newly developed and IMHO we have no idea how its going to develop or the clientele requirements

Skatingn330 said:
[...]Also I want the abiltity to telnet/ssh into all my home network PCs to move files around and delete them or whatever. Basicly I want total control of my home network in the command line. This feature is lacking with my iPhone right now. I bet telneting is possible in windows mobile 6.x right now isn't it?[...]
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Uhm, telnet? Yes, through 3rdparty apps of course. Telnet is a very simple thing to use, but you still need somewhere to telnet TO and something responding on the other end (on your computer(s)). So, the "feature" you want is not something that is related to the device, but rather something you need to setup on your LAN. You would only need a telnetapp on your device
Though I must say... Unless I was in a DIRE need for exposing my WHOLE system for outside access I would NEVER even dream of using a telnetserver on ANY of my systems (except on my linuxbox, hehe). Its a disaster waiting to happen There are fare better choices to use than telnet.
Regarding the file-sharing (SMB) you spoke of. Even if we disregard the fact that SMB is not a very secure protocol, the main thing that speaks against that MS would incorporate such a feature is... since MS doesnt even provide filesystem-access ON the device, why should they do it through SMB? I am pretty sure you can forget that one, at least out-of-the-box, maybe if its unlocked and through some obscure 3rdpartyapp.
Just my two cents...

Moving to general.

Skatingn330 said:
The following are the features NEEDED before I adopt WP7 as my new smartphone OS.
1. Rooted device.
2. Rooted windows share Local network access.
3. File explored => than iFile
3. Phone theme app similar to winterboard for iPhone.
4. DLNA in all forms.
5. True windows live Mesh.
6. Zune updated via explorer, no tethered or untethered syncing needed.
7. Push everything.
8. App pirating scene => apptrackr.org for iPhone.
9. Video game console emulation from all the greats.
10. IE download manager.
11. Video chat.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. Might happen, but a strange requirement
2. Don't understand this one?
3. You're not getting this, the phone don't have a traditional filesystem.
3_. You're not getting this either.
4. Microsoft is a promoter of DLNA
5. It's being merged to SkyDrive, and is supported at launch
6. Won't be possible with the explorer, but it will with the Zune desktop client.
7. The notification-system is based on push.
8. Microsoft is a large company with a long history of anti-piracy. You'll might get in trouble here
9. Write some XNA wrapper for it then!
10. I'd suspect there will be a form of management of downloads and downloaded files.
11. None of the 1. generation phones have a camera on the front side, so you'll have to wait. But software-wise it's supported from day one.

smuppy said:
Though I must say... Unless I was in a DIRE need for exposing my WHOLE system for outside access I would NEVER even dream of using a telnetserver on ANY of my systems (except on my linuxbox, hehe). Its a disaster waiting to happen There are fare better choices to use than telnet.
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Im pretty new to networking but wouldnt using a VPN serve the purpose of what he is wanting? Im not familiar with telnet hardly at all (expect for watching star wars episode 4 that i stumbled across google, haha) but it sounds like a VPN would do what hes looking for. Which WM, the iphone (from what i understand anyways), and im hoping WP7 does. Plus its much MUCH more secure then telnet in even its most basic form of PPTP.

How "limited" is Windows RT compared to regular Windows 8?

I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?

Deusdies said:
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
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Well if its for your criteria of a full Desktop you are right - you can't do this with Windows RT, thus with no RT tablet. But as im using my Surface as a thin client, remoting my home pc or my server for all the stuff i can't do on my tablet it's quite wonderful. And the Windows Store has been incresing ever since, last week i reset me tablet and did some serious store browsing to get up to date with available apps and i probably couldn't find anthing that's not there - development environment and compilers excluded of course. But as far as i can see - not knowing your area of expertise - there is everything you would need to get a basic start, though some apps will cost a dollar/euro or two. Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
As for the Nokia 2520, it definitely looks good! Haven't actually seen this one come up, looks promising.
To sum it up: if what you like is the new Modern UI interface you can definitely go with an RT tablet for there are plenty of apps available. For the desktop that's a whole other story, as I've described (jailbreak/ported apps) - if you are willing to compromise, you will get another added benefit from this cool piece of hard- and software.
The decision which RT tablet to use should be yours i guess, there are quite a few out there, but in a matter of usability I deem them all to work the same.
Greetings,
Fasin

The app market you can check out on your full windows 8 machine no problem. I do personally think its a bit limited.
Windows RT is for all intents and purposes windows 8 running on ARM instead of x86 processors. This does bring a few limitations, and then microsoft impose 2 more.
ARM and x86 processors are rather obviously not compatible. x86 programs cannot run on ARM and vice versa normally (you could emulate an ARM CPU on x86 and vice versa but thats slow).
Most "metro" apps are compiled in both ARM and x86 versions. There are a few which are not for whatever reason. But most should be available in both stores. The vast majority of metro apps use C# or VB.net anyway which dont output native ARM or x86 machine code and instead use .NET bytecode (the .NET runtime is present on both windows 8 and windows RT). VLC is the only major exception I can think of right now, although that hasn't been publicly released yet and ARM is planned (right now its x86 only).
Just about all desktop software for windows is x86. It won't run on ARM. If its open source it may be portable however the only compiler capable of targetting Windows RT is MSVC whereas alot of software can only be built in alternative compilers. There is a list (already linked in the post above) of software which people have managed to recompile for Windows RT.
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Whether the RT is suitable or not depends on your needs. If all your going to do is surf the web, well its full blown internet explorer 11 not some sucky mobile browser, it even has flash (but not java, which you should not confuse for javascript. However iOS and android dont have java either).
You get full RDP support in windows RT. So you can view the screen of and interact with your real windows 8 desktop remotely on the tablet. In the ported apps section for jailbroken devices there is also VNC which does the same thing but is cross platform unlike RDP which is supposed to just be windows (however there is an RDP server for linux too so if you have a linux machine, install the RDP server, remote access it on non jailbroken RT device no problem).
You get microsoft office. Its missing plugins and macros. But otherwise, its a full office suite. Its more than android or iOS have.
Being close enough to normal windows, you get a full file browser which supports network mapped drives and USB etc as you do on your desktop. Android can have file browsers, but they usually arent as good as a desktop file browser. iOS doesnt have a file browser at all.
With the file browser you have support for USB storage. Got some photos on a memory stick, plug it in, you can view them. iOS cannot do this. Some android phones can, some can't (your LG should be able to).
True there are not as many apps as iOS or android. But both iOS and android had low apps counts when they first released and according to what little public data there is, windows after 1 year is about on par with both android and iOS app counts after 1 year. It takes time (but will it take too long is a better question)

Thank you both very much. Very well thought out responses. I was debating between getting the Dell Venue 11 Pro (full Windows 8) or the Nokia 2520 being as that they're the same price, but I have honestly been convinced to get the RT version.
Fasin said:
Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
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Oh. My. Gott.
I had no idea that this even existed. I think this is pretty much what settles it - I'm definitely getting an RT. Notepad++? Python? 7-zip? Amazing! Vielen dank!
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
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You're right, that truly is an odd restriction. Perhaps they just want people to use Windows Store more and more? But from this thread it seems that Jailbreak "fixes" a lot of issues - and I didn't even know this existed until now (admittedly I wasn't into the Windows 8 on mobile devices a whole lot until now).
Yep, I think my only pseudo-concern is now gone. Thank you again both, and Nokia 2520 - here I come!

Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.

BestBuy will have Surface RT for $200 in Black Friday. I'd like to buy one since it is such cheap and I can play with some ARM Win32 programs.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
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I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
I've just read Engadget's review of Nokia 2520, which is overall positive. But I thought it would be much better than the Surface 2, and apparently (according to their review), it isn't. In fact, I thought it will have a better battery life, while in fact it has worse.
As a student I also get a 10% discount on Surface only, and I have a $25 Microsoft Store gift card that I got eons ago, so that brings the total cost for a Surface 2 down to ~$370, which is phenomenal.
It's still in between Nokia 2520 and Surface 2...

Deusdies said:
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
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To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.

ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
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I do program on a laptop with a 14" 1366*768 display. I have used much higher resolution displays though and it is certainly alot better.

ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
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Yep... I do all of my programming on a desktop. At work 3 monitors, at home 1, but 27". So, yes, tablet is just for movies, some games, etc.

It is possible to emulate some x86 programs on RT's ARM processor, however often it will be slow. Most desired programs won't run through emulation (including utorrent, VLC, Steam, etc)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934

Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?

Rakeesh_j said:
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
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No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
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Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.

Rakeesh_j said:
Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
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trying to start flamewars again...

SixSixSevenSeven said:
trying to start flamewars again...
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No, it's very much on topic. If the goal was to start a flame war, then the OP beat me to it a long time ago.

Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
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Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
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I don't really see it that way. Just issue an 'oem unlock' command to the device and you're golden. RT devices however by design forbid doing anything like that.
That said, the ultimate limitation in RT comes from this: RT won't run any app unless MS explicitly greenlights it. A lot of the more interesting apps (to me anyways) are ones that companies like MS and in some circumstances even Google wish didn't exist at all, like ad blockers, being able to tether without carrier permission, etc. Even so, not all of these require root and there's nothing stopping you from using them on Android.

Rakeesh_j said:
Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
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Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
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Two things:
Comments I've heard from developers
And most importantly, Microsoft's own comments
SixSixSevenSeven said:
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
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That later bit is more of a reason to not want RT. Virtually every platform out there uses OpenGL. The number of devices that use directx exclusively make up such a small percentage of the marketplace that it almost may as well not even exist. Android wouldn't gain anything at all by having it (really, no developer out there has ever said "I'd port to Android if only it supported directx,") and it really hurts that RT/WP don't have it. For this reason, any developer who says that they'll only use DirectX is shooting themselves in the foot. Microsoft is doing exactly that - too many games developers said they probably wouldn't ever bother porting anything to RT/WP because they don't want to spend all of the money on porting because the revenue gained is almost guaranteed to not be worth it. Sure, some game engines now support it, but that doesn't solve the problem of backporting their own customizations and additions to the base engine.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
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That's probably because you missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with whether or not battlefield is an FPS. The point is that I've seen web browsers do more impressive things than RT apps. Battlefield is merely an example of why even Chrome is more valuable to me than RT.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
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You aren't telling me anything new here. Microsoft has done something similar more than once and we've already seen the results: It'll just go derelict and then eventually deprecated but still kept around.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if MS created an app store for win32 apps similar to what apple is doing with OSX. Their current store model is just a flat out knockoff of the ios app model (contrast to the play store model where each publisher is at their own discretion, and some people still wonder why android/play is by far more popular than the rest) so they may as well go all the way with it.

Surface RT work like a Pro - Ho to

Hi all,
browsing the web I read in the link below, a way to make RT to work like a Pro. Unfortunatly I'm not familiar with Windows Azure that seems to be the key of this solution.
What do you think about ?
Here you go: http://www.systemcentercentral.com/...e-a-prowith-a-little-help-from-windows-azure/
[email protected]

Meh, way too much effort for what you get, in my opinion. It's a bunch of shenanigans with remote desktop (remote apps, specifically), working around the limitations on using Windows Server. It'll work, after a fashion, but it's not fast to set up, it requires a good Internet connection at all times, you need to make sure to save locally instead of saving on the server (unless you don't mind leaving the files on the server), and Azure subscriptions cost money (not a lot, for the low-end instances the guy uses, but some).
Saying it makes RT "work like a Pro" is complete hyperbole. It makes RT work as a thin client. No more, no less. Whoop-de-do; welcome to the 1970s.

I agree with GDTD that it is a tremendous amount a work for a fairly small gain. I think that employing the jailbreak gives one a great deal of flexibility to do pro-like work on an RT.
There's a couple of great text editors (Notepoad++, SciTE, MicroEMACS, Vim), a couple of C# IDEs (QuickSharp, SharpDevelop), two source-control clients (Subversion, Fossil), Python, Perl, Lua and NodeJS, WinMerge.
There really are lots of options for doing real work on the RT without going nuts with Remote Desktopping. No, you're not going to have access to Visual Studio, and compiling C or C++ isn't available, but if that is the subset of development activities that is most important to you, you can always go Surface Pro.

[Q] Windows surface RT.

How's everyone doing?
I bought a Surface RT during last Black Friday and i have been using it mainly for school. I just found out there was a jailbreak and i guess this whole world of mods. Just wondering what kind of things can a normal computer gamer and medical student gain by jailbreaking? What additional features do you get?

Windows RT cannot run desktop applications normally for 2 reasons.
Firstly it uses an ARM architecture processor commonly used in phones and tablets whereas your normal laptop or desktop uses an x86 architecture processor. The 2 are not compatible, same way my A+ blood is not suitable for a B- recipient (as far as my limited medical knowledge is concerned anyway).
Secondly, unlike windows 8, windows RT features digital signature enforcement. In order to confirm whether a piece of software is legitimate or malware it requires microsoft to add a digital signature to the executable. If the signature is missing or invalid then it won't run it. Apps you download from the windows store will come with this signature so its not a problem there. Unfortunately there is no way to obtain a certificate for desktop applications available to us at this time so only microsoft office, internet explorer and the other built in desktop programs that came preinstalled have the required certificate.
The jailbreak removes the signature checking on windows RT 8.0 only, it does not function on RT 8.1. Black friday is not a thing here so I have no idea when you got the tablet, it could have come with 8.1 rather than 8.0 in which case you can get an 8.0 recovery image and "downgrade" the device again. That solves the second issue and allows us to run software not authorised by microsoft.
The first issue. I don't know how much you know about software development but normally you take a human readable file(s), run it through a compiler and that spits out the executable binary. Of course existing software that you can just hop online and download or pull from a CD will have a binary for x86 processors not ARM. Microsofts C/C++ compiler with support for windows RT is available though so we can at least get binaries which will run on the Surface RT (and other RT devices). Downside, in order for us to port this software to RT it has to have the human readable source code available and that source code needs to work in microsofts compiler, if either of those requirements is not met then there is nothing we can do for a port.
If you are running the 8.0 version of RT rather than RT 8.1 then you can obtain the jailbreak tool from here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2092158
A list of applications which have been ported to RT can be found here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2092348
So what do you gain as a medical student/gamer by jailbreaking? The ability to run the software in the list above, that is it (and if I was to pick up an RT device that would be highly important to me, but thats me, not everyone)

SixSixSevenSeven said:
A list of applications which have been ported to RT can be found here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2092348
So what do you gain as a medical student/gamer by jailbreaking? The ability to run the software in the list above, that is it (and if I was to pick up an RT device that would be highly important to me, but thats me, not everyone)
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I wouldn't consider myself a serious gamer, but the jailbreak gives me three game-related things that I use occasionally. First is Quake. I never actually played through the whole game back in the day, so I'm finally doing that on my Surface, which I think is really cool. Mouse not required so I can pretty much play it wherever (unlike Quake 3, which I've also played on it occasionally). Second is DOSbox, as I occasionally pull out some old games like Duke Nukem when I'm bored. Last is the super Nintendo emulator snes9x. Yes I know there is also a store app version, but it got pulled for while, so I like the knowledge that the desktop version is mine to keep.
Past that there are some very helpful desktop utilities that I use, KeepPass2 (password safe) I use for both personal and work passwords, so to have it on my Surface is awesome, and since there is also a subversion client, I can even check out the work safe directly using my Surface. And of course Putty.
Basically I would not have bought my Surface RT if it weren't for the jailbreak. And I will also not upgrade to 8.1 if a jailbreak isn't available. There are too many things I would rather do on the desktop, even on RT.

domboy said:
I wouldn't consider myself a serious gamer, but the jailbreak gives me three game-related things that I use occasionally. First is Quake. I never actually played through the whole game back in the day, so I'm finally doing that on my Surface, which I think is really cool. Mouse not required so I can pretty much play it wherever (unlike Quake 3, which I've also played on it occasionally). Second is DOSbox, as I occasionally pull out some old games like Duke Nukem when I'm bored. Last is the super Nintendo emulator snes9x. Yes I know there is also a store app version, but it got pulled for while, so I like the knowledge that the desktop version is mine to keep.
Past that there are some very helpful desktop utilities that I use, KeepPass2 (password safe) I use for both personal and work passwords, so to have it on my Surface is awesome, and since there is also a subversion client, I can even check out the work safe directly using my Surface. And of course Putty.
Basically I would not have bought my Surface RT if it weren't for the jailbreak. And I will also not upgrade to 8.1 if a jailbreak isn't available. There are too many things I would rather do on the desktop, even on RT.
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Thank you that sounds amazing. Yea I use it mainly doing work at a clinic, but there is always downtime throughout the day. Playing some Old school quake/snes would be tight. for SNEs are the roms all on there or can you just download everysingle one you want? also do you need a controller?

Redistributing ROMs is generally considered at least technically illegal, and thus against XDA rules. That said, I'm guessing you have them or can find them. No idea if it works with a controller (in general, Windows RT supports controllers, but no guarantee on app compatibility through something like DOSbox or an emulator).
There's one other advantage of Jailbreak that 6677 didn't mention: you can run an x86 emulation layer that (very slowly) allows running (a small number of) normal x86 programs. A few old games, like Heroes of Might and Magic 3, are known to work with it. It won't run anything very new or fancy - for example, even really old versions of Firefox don't work, although their installer will run - but sometimes something that hasn't been tested before is tried, and works out.
Something to consider about DOSBox: a lot of the games on GOG.com are 16-bit games that run in DOSBox. If you extract the DOSBox disk image and configuration and bring them over to the tablet, you can run them using the RT port of DOSBox as well.

egyptionsr2buff said:
Thank you that sounds amazing. Yea I use it mainly doing work at a clinic, but there is always downtime throughout the day. Playing some Old school quake/snes would be tight. for SNEs are the roms all on there or can you just download everysingle one you want? also do you need a controller?
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Everything I mentioned I do with the Surface keyboard, and I've got the type keyboard. The Surface itself can make use of an Xbox360 controller, but I've never tried to configure it in snes9x. A quick search on Google looks like people have used the X360 controller with snes9x on regular Windows, so it may work. I know the store version (snes8x) can use, as I tried it briefly once. I just don't usually have my controller with me, so using the keyboard is much more convenient. The store version has touch controls, but that is really tricky to use when you need precise movement in a game.
ROMs are not bundled with the snes emulator, but that's typical in the emulation world. I don't want to go into too much detail since it's against forum policy, but again, Google it a bit as it's pretty easy to find info on the subject.