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As a long time poster and developer at XDA, I'd just like to go on record as saying that my Tilt 2 is the best Windows phone I've ever owned. Fast, efficient and pretty much crash free, this phone has powered my mobile life more effectively and efficiently than any of the predecessors I've owned.
It's a shame that the Windows Mobile OS finally reached its promise only to fade away. WP will be nothing that I want a part of so I'll be moving to Android ITNF just as soon as I can find a device that can match the specs of my Tilt2 on AT&T.
Anyway, kudos to HTC for this one. You broke the mold for sure and showed me that WM really could be up to the task of a daily workhorse in more areas than I could ever have dreamed of.
completely agree. i switched to android for a spell, but came back because it wasnt quite there for an actual business tool. however i have been following it and i think with the additions of some security protocals coming in 3.0 i may make the switch. as far as my tp2 goes, its a rock solid device. sure it took a lot of tweeking but in the end this thing is a work horse and i lament the loss of such a great os. if ms put any effort into it, they wouldnt have had to do wp7 at all, and android wouldnt have gotten off the ground. but oh well, it is what it is.
Sleuth255 said:
WP will be nothing that I want a part of so I'll be moving to Android ITNF just as soon as I can find a device that can match the specs of my Tilt2 on AT&T.
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not to argue with you over your preferences but I’m not sure you have taken the time to go through and look at all that WP7 has to offer, you should check out the WP7 videos on pocketnow.com YouTube http://www.youtube.com/user/pocketnowvideo I admit at first look it made me think WTF but as I read more in to it and learn more about the new OS I get more and more excited for this new platform. Multitasking isn’t there from day one but I believe that the team behind this OS know what they are doing and I believe that feature will come to fruition soon after release.
As for the specs the tilt2 is a great phone but not when it comes to specs, WP7 has standardized specs starting well above the tilt2 specs.
I do agree that the tilt2 is a great phone and android is going in the right direction for itself, but I think you should give WP7 another chance and look at what it has to offer you and everyone else, I believe this is truly the first mobile OS with Business users, home users, gamers and developers in mind.
My biggest problems with WP7 are its locked down, abstracted filesystem, lack of multi-tasking support, and app-store only enhancement source. Taken straight from Apple, these are also many of the reasons why I'll never buy an iPhone. The fact that SD card support exists is a joke since the filesystem is "striped" onto the card rather than targeted there.
Conversely, there are already several free developer tools for Android and underneath the hood, its Linux with a rich, well-known file-system having traditional SD card support. I have many self-developed apps on my Tilt2; it was easy to develop for since WM had the same code-base architecture as windows. As a Java developer, I'm expecting a short learning curve for Android as well, not to mention a large inventory of custom ROMs to choose from.
Hate to see you leaving the WM world, I've been using your apps since my Hermes.
I must agree, the TP2 is one work horse of a device, and after a little tweaking one of the fastest most stable I've owned. I'm torn between WP7 and Android for my next device, I do know it will be something from HTC tho.
For me, the Touch Pro2 is the best mobile device up to date. I guess I'll move to Android later as WP7 isn't exactly what I where waiting for.
Shame that Rhodium hasn't got 2x ram and a snap dragon processor. This probably would enhance it's lifetime.
Shame that also Palm has gave up mobile devices. I would be really excited to see a lifted palmOS device. Like an updated Palm Pre with a qwerty keyboard... Ahhh! I would love it.
Hey guys, question for those of you who already have apps created..
So far in the app store almost every app listed there is a "text based app that list of something". All the apps are like castrated silverlight applications, rather than an application designed for the phone. (seriously who needs to pay money for an xkcd app when you can just use the browser to visit xkcd.com).
To you app developers out there is this a viable development platform.. or should I be getting myself an android or iphone instead? I mean no sockets api.. come on.
I waited a year replace my BB with windows phone 7 and now that I have it in my hands.. not quite so sure it's going to be replaced. It's a really nice phone but the API is so restrictive
As a developer, the WP7 platform is very viable to me. I'm currently working on a game and will hopefully be submitting it for certification next week. I haven't used the Silverlight stuff yet, but the XNA part of the platform is an absolute joy to use. I'm a very long-time Android user and have owned a Nexus One since it launched. Even though I'm absolutely in love with my Nexus One, I will be jumping ship to WP7 solely because of how awesome the developer tools are.
I believe the Marketplace will start getting a bit more lively over the coming weeks. Developing good apps takes time. So, all the crappy ones will get posted first. I'm not saying all the current apps on the Marketplace are crappy, just that because the platform is so new, people are still working on their good apps. As far as I can tell, the platform has definitely attracted a lot of developer interest.
I program because I enjoy doing it; it's fun to me. However, not all programming is fun. For example, programming in Java (including Android development) is just not fun to me. I'm not saying that Java is bad language or that Dalvik is a bad runtime. I just don't enjoy developing for it. WP7, on the other hand, is great fun. I just really enjoy programming for it. Even if I was the only WP7 user in the world, I would probably still mess around with the platform just because I enjoy it and it's just a pleasant experience all around. Now, I know being a fun environment to program in doesn't automatically make the platform profitable for developers to focus on. I'm hoping, though, that the ease of development will attract a large number of developers and that will, in-turn, attract users. We'll see.
The API is pretty restrictive; I'll admit that. It is something you will have to consider when choosing a phone. If you want to write an SMS backup app or a ringtone changer, WP7 is not for you. WP7 has a lot of limitations at the moment and is missing some features I would love to have (socket support in the API being a big one.) However, I still see the platform as a whole as a step in the right direction. I hope it's successful enough that Microsoft continues to focus on it for a long time so we can see where it goes.
With Blackberry and Nokia trying to keep their customers from jumping ship, Android 3, WP7, and whatever Apple does with iPhone, 2011 is looking to be a very interesting year for smartphones. I'm definitely excited to see what happens with all of the platforms.
Note: sockets are supposed to be coming. I don't know if they're coming in the next update, but I have read that they will be added. Hopefully very soon.
I have to agree with what you just said...
I've been slowly learning how to use VS2008 for a while so I could make tools/games/media players for WM6.5. The problem was that the native UI was so ugly that I had to design everything from scratch if I wanted it to look pretty. The Direct3D tools for WM6.5 were hard to use because documentation was not easy to understand.
I just started using VS2010 and the difference is night and day... I'm learning to use XNA for 3D stuff and it's just so easy. There are video podcasts available as tutorials as well as all the stuff on websites. I, too, am having fun making this game...
On the other hand, I haven't tried iOS or Android programming.
I am one of the faithful WM6.5 users. I do not care how cool my device is like most fake people that have moved on to Android & IPHONE cause their friends say they should. I feel that WM is still the best all around OS thought they all offer good things.
I would love to set goals for the future of WM6.5 like tryin to port FLASH 10.1. They did it for the IPHONE so it should be possible for WM. Also since we know software makers are walkin away from us for Android IPHONE and WP7 so i assume development for our devices will be done by the geniuses at XDA. I am not ready to walk away from this platform yet. I think we can keep it going for another year. Lets make 2011 the year of WINDOWS MOBILE. I want this thread to be dedicated to askin developers on XDA what new ideas they have for WM 6.1 & 6.5.
If you have ideas for games, ports, regedits, or programs to make our devices better please post below.
RULES:
DO NOT post tellin us what your favorite OS is or what the best OS is. Everyone knows that different people like different OS's.
DO NOT get upset if someone disagrees with your opinion.
DO NOT post unless you have something good to say about WM. This is a thread that is for people that want to better the WM OS not bash it. If you prefer Android or IPHONE then I am sure you can find somewhere to talk about how they are better than WM but do not do it here.
DO NOT tell us how WM is a dying OS, we know this already.
DO NOT post things such as your career or academic achievments and somehow link it to WM users being more or less intelligent then other users.
DO NOT post unless you love WM period!
WM is still very powerful operating system, but only if you can use it potential.
I wonder why people are more into simple-yet-dumb OS's which simply limit user.
On windows mobile, i can listen to music through bluetooth headset, share my 3g+ connection with laptop, browse html5 websites with flash and all of it on one device. And thats just beggining.
On the note to successor, WP7, where the hell is copy/paste? Dumb.
I love to copy commands from notepad to my remote desktop connection to use quick server commands.
BTW. I'm still laughing my ass off when i think about NO multitasking on iphone.
retsam88 said:
WM is still very powerful operating system, but only if you can use it potential.
I wonder why people are more into simple-yet-dumb OS's which simply limit user.
On windows mobile, i can listen to music through bluetooth headset, share my 3g+ connection with laptop, browse html5 websites with flash and all of it on one device. And thats just beggining.
On the note to successor, WP7, where the hell is copy/paste? Dumb.
I love to copy commands from notepad to my remote desktop connection to use quick server commands.
BTW. I'm still laughing my ass off when i think about NO multitasking on iphone.
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We r using it to its potential as of now but it can be better. As I mentioned FLASH 10.1 which was ran on the HD2 in a video but was never released for WM instead went to Android and was ported to the IPHONE. I think we should start a movement to get these things workin on WM. There is alot of useless apps being made and I would luv to see the developers move towards making our devices better instead of making them "cooler."
I totally agree - I am using WM5/6 as target devices for my private and business projects.
But it seems like the wm programmers are in short the veterans of programming. A little crowd (did someone say 3 are a crowd?) of people that stand to their mobile os :-D
I've been using android for a while and I have to say wm has the throne in productivity. I mean, I can play in android but wm can satisfy my needs mare than any other os
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
I've had a WM device for 3 years now, and it's old news. There's not even one...ONE single good sports app. How is there not one. Developers don't care about WM6. It's been swept under the carpet and it's sad because I still have a Treo Pro.
I totally agree for this post !
I hope that we have soon the the new wm6.X builds (WM6.5 handset,etc...) with new features and new API !!!!!
Why they are moving for less sophisticated OS? That's easy to answer. When Palm was the king of the hill, do you know what was the best selling PDA they had? It was the entry level Zire22 (lowres screen, no sdcard support, ...). Why? Because the vast majority of users are lowend. They will never:
1. sync with their computers
2. install anything new, use what was given with the phone/pda
3. tweak it
We are NOT regular users, and also, we are NOT the biggest buying group. They are business oriented, will manufacture what sells.
You can see the same with games. Who remembers the best racing simulator ever done, GrandPrix Legends by Papyrus? It was so hard to drive that it fail miserably on sales, they shifted their focus to a more arcade kind of games (best sellers).
I totaly agree and i think the same way that Win Mo is the Best OS right now and will tell why.
1st because WinMo is fully Costumizable in every aspect not only visual, so WinMo is the base if you have a WinMo Device for few seconds you can make it look like iOS or Anroid or Windows Mobile 7 or.. you name it.. so the WindowsMobile 6.X give use the freedom and is like chameleon on the same time.
I dont like stupid OS like the iPhone just icons icons and icons everywhere..
Android... you move widgets and etc this is all of course now i have Android look with SBP shell and when im totally pissed of i aways can just uninstall it))))))))))))
Honestly i like Android only for the Speed, and if we talk here honest we all know that WindowsMobile 6.x is SLOW OS by saying slow i mean compared to Android or iOS but overal WindowsMobile is good OS for everyday use if you costumize and optimize it
The things that we can do with our devices NO ONE can do them with Android or iOS or WM7 this is the TRUE.
Im not programer but i believe that many interesting thing can be done if here have serious peoples who love WM 6.x
And i really think that WinMo is still the KING because give us Freedom.
Couldn't agree more!wm6.5.x is quite decent .But lack of latest apps will be a problem as many software companies are no longer providing WM supports.many of apps running on my Omnia2 are last released 1 or 2 years ago and some of them are just not designed for 800X480 screen.
I have been a WinMo supporter since 2003SE. And I recently upgraded from my Tilt2 to the HTC Surround. I have to admit WP7 just works better. But Do not get me wrong, I will never give up my Tilt2. I love that device. I love trying new ROMs, using RDP, and most of all the keyboard. And I will continue my support of WM until Microsoft officially calls it EOL.
You know why people move to android? It's easier to use, more finger friendly, widely supported in terms of games, based on linux (doesnt get much more open source if you really want to dig), and its generally more physically appealing. Even with SPB mobile shell Windows mobile 6.5 looks like crap. I have an HD2 but aside from theming it to look like WP7 I've been using it primarily for android because, hey, I like to have FUN with my phone. When is the last time a truly GOOD app was made for winmo? I remember warspear a few years back that's about it. You pull together enough people to completely rejuvenate a lifeless OS and I will eat my own shoe on youtube for all of you. Til then.
Android: Functionality/Fun
WP7: Ease of use/glorified feature phone
iphone: Overpriced status symbol
WM5/6: Flatline
i didnt like 6.5, i thought it sucked. i did like 6.1 tho.
either way its a dead os with no new apps being devloped or updated. will have to wait to see what wp7 brings
The things that we can do with our devices NO ONE can do them with Android or iOS or WM7 this is the TRUE.
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Lmao. This dude is trapped in a fantasy world.
1. There's a reason that the Android section of this forum has more threads in Apps and Games, Themes, and Software development than Windows Mobile...and it hasn't even been around as long!
2. There's a reason everyone wants to mod their Windows Mobible devices to look like droids, AND even install the android os on their WM devices.
Tell me ONE thing, ONE THING that your WM6.5 or whatever it is can do, that an android phone can't, except make a less expensive paper weight?
I have a Palm Treo Pro, and as much as I love this phone, it's old news. I want a droid. WM is dead.
Long live to Windows Mobile!!
I think WM is far away to being considered as dead, of course MS wants that but it will depend on us users and Chefs & Devs to keep it alive!!
I still prefer it over WP7 and Android!
A voting for the best Developers award will be soon announced as a tribute to our beloved WM!
As much as I love WM, there is a simple fact, developers will develop for the popular platforms first and users will go where there are apps...just like games sell consoles, apps will drive smart devices.
WM is good, but MS has never made it easy to develop on, compact .net has always been lacking and you need a pro version of visual studio (with it's huge price tag). The fact that you can develop windows phone 7 using Visual Studio Express 2010 - which is free and that even the Pro version of Visual Studio 2010 does not support WM, shows that MS are doing their best to kill off WM, they've even removed many of the WebCasts for developing WM from their site so you can't even get the information you used to have available.
Add to that whole new area's of TV streaming devices and Tablets which are likely to support Android or iOS stuff and WM ends up being a smaller and smaller old and tired fish in a fast expanding pond of young competition.
You can see here, that the forum has already swung from WM!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=866626
I totally agree with meltwater. WM is going to die soon or later. In this moment I''m totally happy with my Touch HD, CHT 2.0 gave me all the flexibility on home page I was looking for. I can't find nothing on the other platforms I don't find for my actual phone, a part maybe something related to augmented reality.
On the other way I've already tried Android on my HD and works very well, considered all the limitations. Pity for camera and FM Radio, I use them so Android can't be for a daily use. But if they'll be able to solve last problems it's possible I'll start to use Android, more to start to use and learn the OS so to be ready when really new phones/tablet will come in the market. To say the truth I always liked big screens, so if next year a very good 7" tablet will be in the market with optimized Android (3.0?) and a price near 400 Euros, I'll definitely change the wagon.
About WP7, i appreciate Microsoft efforts, but I don't like at all . I've seen iPhone 4 and it's spectacular to see in use, nothing to say. But overpriced and not for me, similar to WP7 too many limitations.
meltwater said:
As much as I love WM, there is a simple fact, developers will develop for the popular platforms first and users will go where there are apps...just like games sell consoles, apps will drive smart devices.
WM is good, but MS has never made it easy to develop on, compact .net has always been lacking and you need a pro version of visual studio (with it's huge price tag). The fact that you can develop windows phone 7 using Visual Studio Express 2010 - which is free and that even the Pro version of Visual Studio 2010 does not support WM, shows that MS are doing their best to kill off WM, they've even removed many of the WebCasts for developing WM from their site so you can't even get the information you used to have available.
Add to that whole new area's of TV streaming devices and Tablets which are likely to support Android or iOS stuff and WM ends up being a smaller and smaller old and tired fish in a fast expanding pond of young competition.
You can see here, that the forum has already swung from WM!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=866626
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I feel that there are quite a few misunderstandings in this thread. The first is that if developers were going to wait for MS to come up with the goods in the first place, this forum would have never existed. In fact, we would have been relegated to overpriced and monetiseed structures for selling icons and ringtones like the Symbian people.
Secondly, a person's reason for getting an Android phone or iPhone are different to that of the Windows user. Blame it on the recession, blame it on the lower IQ of the average smartphone user, either way the basis of buying Android or iPhone is a product of good marketing and the science of hype,like buying an ipod when instead you could stick a stereo jack in your phone and have all the same stuff. I bought my first WM phone years before I saw an ad for it, because Im a bit of tech junkie and I jumped at the opportunity to have so much functionality in a mobile platform. The decorations came later.
Thirdly, the constant habit of WM users customising their handsets to look like other platforms is for entertainment purposes only, we knew we could always press the hard-reset button and put the hype behind us.
Fourth, Microsoft always does the same thing of taking away support or info when they bring out a new OS. As much as I love Windows Mobile, I dont like Microsoft. The only way to move new product is to stop support for the biggest seller, I remember when they did the same thing with Windows 98 when XP came out.
Conclusion: If youre looking to resell common-place technology (thats been around for years) to hyped-up half wits, then Android/iPhone is the way to go. Its hard to pull the wool over a real Windows Mobile user's eyes,unfortunately.
Windows FTW always
I started using windows mobile long long ago and for its time it was something epic. However, once other smartphones came into play they were just unable to keep the pace. Sure, your phone CAN do a lot more, theres customizations on windows phones that android may not have for a long time. However if they'd been smart and invested some time when phones became more finger friendly rather than still forcing stylus usage when devices with "touch" in the name came out then they'd be a lot better off. Android in some aspects will never catch winmo, you just can't get that open source and expect to have a clean user experience. In some ways we may never catch up to winmo, parts of what they did may still be considered revolutionary 20 years from now but in a lot of ways we passed up windows mobile 2 years ago when the g1 came to pass because we took what you could do, we made it easier to develop, and we made it user-friendly to start out with. Windows mobile will remain a developers phone... if you want to shell out an unreal price for software that you wont make money off of anymore due to it being a dead operating system.
It has been said that developers will code for Windows Phone 8 devices and neglect Windows Phone 7..
I totally disagree. If I was a developer I would code for WP7 and not WP8. Not immediately anyway. At launch of WP8, there would be millions more WP7 devices than WP8 devices so why limit my sales to WP8 devices only? WP7 apps work on WP7 and WP8. WP8 apps ONLY work on WP8 devices. Therefore, I would code for WP7 devices which work on WP7 AND WP8. Makes total sense if I want to make more money from my app. I would wait several months before coding for WP8 to allow time for a large user base of WP8 owners to grow.
Considering WP7 market share is only 3.8% and the fact that it will continue to drop as people start to realize it's an orphaned platform, if WP8 is successful, I would think most developers would prefer to compile their apps for native WP8. The existing user base of WP7 phones will dry up quickly as people will upgrade at the end of their 1 or 2-year contracts.
For new developers, there's usually a good learning curve when it comes to an SDK, so I don't know why they would want to learn the WP7 SDK when they can jump right to WP8.
My company has developers that we are currently contracting for mobile development. We had an active project going on for WP7 for an enterprise app (business purposes).
The day of the announcement we halted all development... First idea was to stop coding immediately, get our hands on the new SDK, and re-write the app so it would be native to the new OS for when development is finished...
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
-We don't want to push this app for WP7 and have it not run natively on the new WP8...
-If we did stay with Windows Phone, we'd want it to be coded in the best way possible (using the SDK and coded best practice using the new development methods of WP8)...
-We don't want to halt development until we hear more as to WTF is going on with the SDK, development, and a product that isn't even out yet...
-We don't want to code for a platform that is obsolete (WP7).
And most of all, this applies not just to us, but to the typical dev writing a complex app... We don't have the time, funds, and budget to develop for both platforms WP7, and WP8...
Zhariak said:
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
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How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
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The only app I know of that is exclusive to WP7 is the Walgreen's app. If you're an old, broken down POS like me, it occupies the top left tile.
sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
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We are a small biz, this isn't your average tinker app... We chose a platform and OS to our liking... Don't have the resources to manage the same app over multiple platforms... That's the main reason why we aren't developing for both development methods for WP7 and WP8.
Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.
Laquox said:
Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.
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They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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I can see that but we probably won't see a SDK for at least 3-6 months. No developer on the planet (that I can think of) is going to wait for that amount of time to get to market. And my take from the Summit was that the 7.5 SDK will not be obsolete as your app will run on WP8. By the time WP8 has a decent enough market share it will be time to refresh your app anyway (14-18 months from now) and then you can make the jump to the new SDK which from what I watched will be almost effortless and will allow native code.
Just my thoughts here.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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In term of money, they would make more money if they can make an app that can run well on both OS without further development.
But in technology side, Native C and C++ would be easier to develop, i am start worrying that Microsoft is driving to a wrong way. Not a straight way to success, but a narrow and longer one.
Just keep thinking about what if they put the native-code support for Windows 7.8 (Simple Speaking, would be what if they make Windows Phone 8 Apps (written in Native C) can run well on Windows Phone 7.8 as well without any modification...
A little more works to be done , but think about what they can get from it. People will respect Windows Phone more, recent user will not regret with their 2-years plan as much as they do right now.
There will be some reasonable explanation about the hardware limitation of the current Windows Phone, but just think about that. I don't think it is impossible to make the current kernel support apps from Windows Phone 8.
If they can't do that right now , just be clear that they don't sound like "Windows Phone 7.8 mark the death for the current Windows Phone gen."
Windows Phone lovers won't be hurt since i know they (and i) will purchase a new phone anyway, but with some users, it is a broken deal if they just picked up a Lumia or Titan for 2-years contract and feel like Microsoft just forget about them.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.
Excellent post Wyn6. Well said. For anyone to say that WP7 SDK is dead..
well, they clearly need to change their mind pronto if they want to make money as a developer. I wish WP8 lots of success and think it will be successful, but there is still (and will be) plenty of life in WP7.
Very well said Wyn6. Can you please post it on some more threads here and around other forums where we have headless chickens running around wanting to jump the ship? I've run out of my thanks for today but will make sure they go where they are due. I will be quoting your post in numerous threads I've pulled my hair reading in past 48 hours! Hope you are ok with that
Wyn6 said:
If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly what i want to say...
Countinuing supporting for Windows Phone 7 right now is the way the developer would do... Since Windows Phone 8/ Windows 8 user base would not reach to the point that WP7.5 has right now.
Wyn6 said:
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. I know in the video game console market there has been a long history of making new systems incompatible with previous generations of a console. The reason being is console makers wanted software developers to use the new console's new features. If left to their own devices software makers would be a lot slower to code solely for the new hardware. I don't know why smartphones wouldn't be the same.
The people that think they are clever waiting for Windows Phone 8 are going to be disappointed. The OS will have some great new characteristics that the MSFT built in apps will take advantage of on day one but I doubt there will be a deluge of Windows Phone 8 exclusive apps for a loooonnnngggg time. Who doubts this?
nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.
pillsburydoughman said:
nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.
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Click to collapse
You are right. Those 100,000 apps that school kids have made for WP7 in about 20 months might be better when a developer who pays $100 makes them. You will be alright.
Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.
nicksti said:
Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.
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Click to collapse
This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.
lqaddict said:
This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe people in here understand that if a software dev wanted to he/she could make software that would be compatible on WP7.8 and 8. What they are debating is if someone would. Because in theory they would want to include as many devices as possible.
Are OEMs going to make new handsets with WP7.8? If the answer is no then WP7 is dead. Dead as my goldfish Goldie.
Developer interest in Android has decreased
Administrator | 09/28/2012 | 16:12
Android logoDespite its continued increase in the mainstream consciousness, Android has seen a decrease in developer interest. A new survey from Appcelerator found that 76% of mobile developers are "very interested" in creating apps for Android. 85% said they were very interested in the iPhone.
Last year at this time, both of those numbers were closer to 90%.
So interest among all platforms has deen a drop-off, but Android is showing the starkest decline, especially in comparison to its relative growth in the market.
The survey didn't provide much in the way of qualitative information to figure out why this is. In fact, one of the results of the survey found that developers see a large installed base as one of the key factors when deciding which platform to develop for - something that Android obviously has.
This survey comes just as Google announced that Google Play app downloads have exceeded 25 billion. The total number of apps in Google Play now stands at around 675,000. So it seems very odd that interest in these platforms has declined.
Maybe it's just due to the changing tide of the industry right now, and hopefully interest in development will start climbing back up.
As Phandroid's Kevin Krause points out, it’s important to note a trend common among nearly all platforms in Appcelerators Q3 survey.
"All platforms, including iOS, saw a drop off from the previous quarter except for Windows 8 Tablets. While developer interest still remains higher for Apple’s iPhone and iPad, it too has declined since the middle of 2011, though to a lesser degree than Google’s Android platform," he explained.
"As such, the figure could be easily attributed to the introduction of new platforms such as Windows Phone or to a general shift towards HTML5 over native mobile apps."
Source: TGDaily
found here on this site- http://www.x-drivers.com/news/software/index.html
please post in the right section. development is for roms/mods/kernels. all questions belong in Q&A. an this will be moved to general
i think people are running out of creativity and are just working on improvement of what is already out. windows platform are increasing because they lack in apps... so developers are obviously flocking over there to try to be the first at something that is already made for android and ios.
Op despite copy pasting something from somewhere can you also let us know what did you understand from the stuff u copy pasted? Cuz i personally do not see how it affects us, since there already are all kind of apps one can need
It was just kind of a shock. Personally I'm pretty new at all this and am surprised at the strength of the Android OS community. That "copy and paste" seemed to me as if they were trying to say Android is a thing of the past and will soon be forgotten. It was really meant to be a post along the "informative" lines or to help others involved in the Android OS community remain up to date on the current events unfolding around us, and/or to see what others may think of the statements made in the article as well. So as far as learning something goes............nah, I didn't learn a single thing that I probably couldn't have figured out on my own. Thanks for askin' there though buddy!
countryboy092782 said:
It was just kind of a shock. Personally I'm pretty new at all this and am surprised at the strength of the Android OS community. That "copy and paste" seemed to me as if they were trying to say Android is a thing of the past and will soon be forgotten. It was really meant to be a post along the "informative" lines or to help others involved in the Android OS community remain up to date on the current events unfolding around us, and/or to see what others may think of the statements made in the article as well. So as far as learning something goes............nah, I didn't learn a single thing that I probably couldn't have figured out on my own. Thanks for askin' there though buddy!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem with stories like this are that people don't look at all the facts, just the ones that help prove their point (not talking about anyone in particular, more of a generalization).
Yeah, there's been a 15% drop in interest in app development, 20% total if you include iOS.
Things that weren't taken into account:
1. There are 1 in 5 people who aren't interested in mobile app development anymore...that means there is still (on average) about 4 out of 5 people who are interested. 4 out of 5 is about 4 times bigger than 1 out of 5. Which means 4 times as many people are still interested than those who aren't interested. Sounds pretty healthy to me.
2. The Play Store and the App Store have something like 1.3 million application between Android and iOS. People who "lost interest" very likely had interest, developed their application, and are no longer interested in developing any more applications. 1.3 million is a very crowded app market. It's not like Pokemon where there's a chance you can catch em all if you play long enough. You'll never use every app in Android or iOS. So is it really that big of a deal if app development slows down a little bit?
3. As others have mentioned, Windows 8 is about to launch. Windows 8 has like no applications (very few, I've looked)...so devs could be looking for greener pastures. It doesn't mean they won't come back if they have a great idea for Android or iOS, it just means they don't have any now.
For every negative thing you can think of about there being a 20% drop in app dev interest over 2 mobile platforms, there are still just as many (if not more) positive things you can counter it with...so this isn't a statistic really worth worrying about.
I really just kinda threw it out there to see folks thoughts on it. Thank you for your take on it all Mr. Poor College Guy, and thank you for the rescue. I thought I was about to be tied up in a political pissin' contest there for a moment
.