Develop Bugs

Rant. WP7, TP2, Nexus, Android etc

Just figured I'ld post this to weigh in.
I love WM. The TP was actually my first WMPhone and I really loved customizing it, ROMs, and in general HTC as a company. Easy tethering, tons of detail, thousands of programs. I hated the TP battery, waited six months for the TP2 to finally come out and changed to Tmo just to not wait anymore. Obviously, I'm a (relatively new) fan.
However, in all my reading and browsing, and mixing and matching Roms and programs, I got annoyed with the endless glitches. It seemed customizing was a chore to fill gaps half the time. And so I waited to hear about WP7.
On a random decision, after loading DualBoot and Android on my TP2, I bought a Nexus One just to have the Snapdragon and multitouch (HD2 announced for Tmo like 3 days later lol). But I kept my ears open for WP7 and totally expected to move back in October.
I know you guys are all WinMo, but to be honest this has to be a common feeling. Look how popular Android on TP has become. We have been looking for something, but wanting it to be windows.
So, the point: my experience.
A.) the nexus one has made me sorely miss a keyboard. However other than that I actually like it. The battery is at least equal to TP2. Things that are chores on WMo are easy on Android, like Fbook integration of contacts and maintaining stability. Having several open programs is such a non-issue battery wise and slowdown wise that there isnt even a freaking task manager or close program button. You have to download a program, and its not that common. You just leave everything open. Zero slowdown. Same battery, more or less. I don't think its superior to WM, more like a close cousin that doesnt share the bad family traits. In the present climate, Android is very similar to WM.
B.) and now the hard part. WP7 looks nice. Looks great actually. Devices will surely be as cool as always. But set aside your loyalty and look: what do you tell your friends you like about WM, why you stay with it? Customization. Open program downloading and creation. EFFORTLESS MULTITASKING. Endless differentiation between companies, UI's, and phones. Where the $%^& is what we love in WP7? Complicated, apparently limited, multitasking that sounds too much like Iphone. Closed development. Limited, almost meaningless so far, customization. Closed App environment. The best anyone can come up with so far about differentiation is adding freaking keyboards and hardware colors. Does anyone now wonder why HTC started shifting more support, and Sense, to Android?
As much as I hate to say it, I will probably stick with Android unless WP7 pulls something great out. It looks great, but so does the Iphone and that is not something I consider wanting. My nexus one has everything I love about htc, and adds in perfect stability and customization. Hardly anyone bothers posting apps online, but only because the Market lets basically anything in! Tethering apps, rooting apps, whatever. Let's face it: Microsoft appears to be spurning its loyal fanbase. And Google is waiting with open arms.

WP7 does not appeal to me at this time with its current UI. They should have hired SPB mobile shell to create their UI.
I like most droid devices (not the motodroid) and the OS is extremely responsive and easy to understand. Haven't done any detailed work w/ the andoird OS, but WinMo customization is what keeps me here.

I agree Trev.
I believe the software industry, much like the music and film (big and small screens) industries, is changing. Open source is the way forwards as people are more able to communicate with each other the need for centralised programming is going to more and more take a back seat.
This means margins will be cut and I'll be supprised if MS, being such a large organisation will be able to keep up. Maybe this the reason for the speculation on WM7 being locked down, so they can have a greater control over revenues. I've read an article which mentioned that MS consider Linux to be a virus that gets into profitable areas of business and destroys the margins. That attitude won't get them anywhere.
I don't think WM7 will have anything new. MS are in the business of preserving what they have and not winning new customers. WM7 will be safe, not amazing.
Android is new so nothing is set in stone. It will be more flexible, open to new ideas and will grow it's market share. They let pretty much anything into their app store which will allow anyone to have a go, not just a centralised "elite". This will help to keep it new too because it's not just the same people going through the motions because it pays the bills. The is what keeps this forum alive.
The MS business model is dying and being replaced with something that's better for the consumer. Much like the short haul airline industry changed

trevorwhopkins said:
Just figured I'ld post this to weigh in.
Let's face it: Microsoft appears to be spurning its loyal fanbase. And Google is waiting with open arms.
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Click to collapse
Absolutely right! Wouldn't surprise me if google is working on an OS for the pc. If they are I would be scared if I were MS.
On another note, i'm not sure what people mean when they compare winmo to android customization. You can customize android just as much as you can custimize winmo. Do these people ever visit the android forums and see all the customization people are doing with their android phones? Any hard core winmo fan will not miss customization moving from winmo to android. I just think some people are having a hard time letting go.

I have also felt like this for a while. Mainly due to being given an MSM7200 for 3 years! Sure there is the HD2 with the snapdragon but that doesn't have AT&T 3G bands and a couple other WM phones with it too, but none that I like.
I would have switched to Android (and still will) if a phone comes out that meets these requirements:
1) WVGA Screen
2) Snapdragon
3) NICE keyboard, comparable to TP2. This is the best keyboard I have ever used.
4) AT&T 3G bands.
The only phone that comes close is the Motorola Milestone on Telus (unlockable). It doesn't have a snapdragon but a decent processor. Its keyboard also sucks.

Google do have an OS. It's called Chrome, like the browser, and it based on Ubuntu.
And Microsoft seems to be basing their business on people not letting go. It's sad really, I wish they'd try harder

I would not care if my Tilt 2 came with Android or WinMO to be honest. They are overall about the same to me.
I got the Tilt 2 because I wanted a qwerty keyboard, with a large very high quality touch screen as well. And I did not want an internal HD like iPhones, I want interchangeable light weight cheap storage cards! That gives me unlimited storage. All that, on AT&Ts service plan.
It did not hurt that it cost me $50 to upgrade from my Fuze to the Tilt 2!
If Microsoft would open up WinMO so the different phone manufactures could customize the OS for each phone, companies like HTC could do amazing things with WinMO.
I honestly wish HTC would update their software for their phones more often.

Keep TILT2 or wait a few more months???
Deleted due to duplication Here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=5679065#post5679065

enahs_ said:
I would not care if my Tilt 2 came with Android or WinMO to be honest. They are overall about the same to me.
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I disagree. But then again, they keyword here is "me". To you they're overall the same. Which is somewhat of a true statement. They both lend themselves to customization and both have plenty of funtionality. But where Android sets itself apart is speed and stability, which I would take anyday. What good is a phone that has all this functionality, when half the time the functionality doesn't function properly or you have to tweak the hell out of the OS to get it to work properly.

So, So true
I remember feeling a weird sort of guilt for liking Android so much when I got my N1. I had spent so much time on my TP2 to get it right and the N1 came "right", right out of the box. Granted full free tethering(with free options) was not there, but everything else is. I think the guilt was all the time, I don't want to say it.... wasted.
I remember starting a thread that really ticked a lot of people off. Just mentioning how Android was what real functionality and customization should be like and BAM!, flame city.
When it was just Windows Mobile or another smartphone option(you can name them), there was no choice. Now with Android, I feel I have made the most equitable of the choices. And the little pleasures of the choice I have made are the reason that it would take a game changer of a WindowsPhone7 to make me think of going back. The lack of weekly(with the best of Roms) or daily resets(just to keep the phone fresh), glitches, memory leaks(a given), freezes, weird pauses and the like, which rank as my largest pet peeves, are my joys with Android. I have reset the phone twice in 3 weeks only to change a memory card and another time just because. Not one freeze, slowdown, memory leak, not in what's going on a month, which I can't say of the TP2 in the same time period. Which was the motivation to flash it. After agreeing on the almost overwhelmingly unanimous feeling that it was the best shipped Rom in a long time!
Yeah, no more of that for me , thanks....

I agree. If Windows "Phone" 7 is going to be as rigid as the other mobile operating systems are now; where's the fun in that? Personally, what NRGZ28 has done with his EnergyROMs especially his most latest is why I bought this device in the first place; he did remarkable work with the Wing. That's me! The work these folks do is nothing short of outstanding; all of them. Now, I don't know enough about the Android devices other than there is a whole lot of folks liking them but everybody I've talked to who looks at what I've done to my TP2; their eyeballs and tongue roll out of their heads; they can't believe it can be done and with the latest ROM I have on my device at first glance they think they're looking at the HD2 (Leo). If Windows "Phone" 7 (I'll never get use to calling it that) is going to follow the path of everybody else then you're probably going to see the bulk of us jump ship; but what cannot be dismissed is are we the majority or are we the minority? My Wing was living proof Windows Mobile 6.5 could run on it as were many of the Windows Mobile devices out there at the time. But smart phones like desktops are becoming as powerful as netbooks today; maybe notebooks. I've had my desktop PC for years but clearly the software today is forcing me to consider a new PC with 4, 6 and 8 GBs of RAM; my current PC maxes out at 512mbs. I've read good reviews about Windows Phone 7 and the moment the HD2 comes out I want it, but I also know the market is going to be flooded with TP2s and they will come down in price as they've already have now from $349.99 to $269.99. What is unknown is how much will the HD2 costs given it's horsepower and upgrades to the US market. We all have to remember there are other devices that will be released after the HD2, for example the Tera, looks like the TP2 with a 600mhz CPU. There is the HD Mini, smaller than it's bigger brother and I'm sure there will be a TP2 style device with the 1GHz Snapdragon maybe clocked higher. I kill to have a HD2, but I also know it is wise to wait. I have read nothing that says it won't be upgraded to Windows Phone 7, though with the exception of XDA, PPC Geeks and other websites; it might be awhile. I've had Windows Mobile 6.5 on my TP2 day one and then on my Wing; it didn't officially release until when; January 20, 2010.

"I would not care if my Tilt 2 came with Android or WinMO to be honest. They are overall about the same to me."
That is the feeling I generally got. I dualbooted android on my TP2 and basically still loved the phone for exact same reasons.
"I remember feeling a weird sort of guilt for liking Android so much when I got my N1. I had spent so much time on my TP2 to get it right and the N1 came "right", right out of the box. Granted full free tethering(with free options) was not there, but everything else is. I think the guilt was all the time, I don't want to say it.... wasted"
my sentiments exactly. except that full free tethering is available. same way as on wm. with some customization. i just rooted my n1 yesterday and got the tethering. works perfect.
As for new comments since original post... I am ever more convinced I am right. When I finally rooted my phone (much scarier than hardspl'ing my tp2 i must say, though not too difficult. similar to Pre unlocking.) it locked in that I'll stay with Android, unless they release a WP7 phone without the tiles and with full customization. Check out the android forums. I just flashed Sense onto my n1. I almost laughed.
It has the exact same look and feel as Sense on Winmo! Same keyboard. Same dialer, almost, so now I dont miss smartdialing. It even has a version of the sliding homescreen with texts and alarms, etc. It feels exactly like the day I flashed 2.5 onto my TP2... only it didnt hamstring my phone at all. It just worked. Customization is more complicated but ultimately more rewarding and way more usable on Android. It's sad to see so many posts agreeing finally. I figured I would get flamed too. This is a Rhodium forum after all! I will probly try to leave this thread alone to not bother the Rhodium guys. I loved my phone and would never trash it now that I got the n1. But I don't regret it at all. Still miss that fantastic keyboard though.
Oh and to the Milestone loving guy... go try that milestone. The keyboard is a joke to me. Its just like the droid. hard flat keys. At least it's finally centered on the phone though. And its sad someone mentioned the milestone as decent powered, it being a low end Droid. But then again, Android still has the G1, which is so much a joke its why I hesitated to even try Android before 2.1.

One final comment:
Are we the majority or minority? Obvious answer: minority. Or else they wouldnt be catering to the masses with 7. However: masses follow trends. Trends come and go. Our minority I would define as a LOYAL FAN BASE. Up until now. What happens when your LOYAL BASE is lost? Obvious answer: your company is a victim of the masses, lol.
Look at the Palm Pre. I had one for about a month before Rhodium. Fantastic OS, always stable, so easy to use. I reccomend that phone to every teenager wondering what phone to buy, or person who doesn't want to bother with the phone. But Palm built its empire on the Corporate and Power User. And then ditched them with Web OS and no poweruser form factor phones like HTC has. They arent necessarily dying, but with alllll that buzz, why do I constantly read reports of their company struggling with insolvency? Because they ditched their fanbase I would say. Sadly, I bet MS banks on WP7. They have the power of laaaarge budgets. But what happens when Iphone 4.0 or whatever the next buzz stealer is comes out? Hope they picked the right group.

trevorwhopkins said:
One final comment:
Are we the majority or minority? Obvious answer: minority. Or else they wouldnt be catering to the masses with 7. However: masses follow trends. Trends come and go. Our minority I would define as a LOYAL FAN BASE. Up until now. What happens when your LOYAL BASE is lost? Obvious answer: your company is a victim of the masses, lol.
Look at the Palm Pre. I had one for about a month before Rhodium. Fantastic OS, always stable, so easy to use. I reccomend that phone to every teenager wondering what phone to buy, or person who doesn't want to bother with the phone. But Palm built its empire on the Corporate and Power User. And then ditched them with Web OS and no poweruser form factor phones like HTC has. They arent necessarily dying, but with alllll that buzz, why do I constantly read reports of their company struggling with insolvency? Because they ditched their fanbase I would say. Sadly, I bet MS banks on WP7. They have the power of laaaarge budgets. But what happens when Iphone 4.0 or whatever the next buzz stealer is comes out? Hope they picked the right group.
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Click to collapse
I agree with this. Companies alienate their loyal fanbases all the time in pursuit of of larger sales. There's nothing wrong with niche products, even when influential tech blogs try to declare your mobile OS "dead" even though you still have roughly 20% market share in the space.
I'm with the OP on the original point as well. I've defended WinMo to the death in the face of hordes of iPhone users and what thanks do I get? A dead Moto Q9h (replaced under warranty), a quirky Palm Treo Pro, and a Tilt 2 with a dead touchscreen (also being replaced under warranty). I applaud MSFT for trying to standardize the hardware experience of WP7, but I can't stand the walled-garden, locked-down UI, app store approach. Android is the most logical choice for my next phone - that Dell Mini 5 is looking pretty good.

If you were "normal"...

We all know that most, if not all the people, on this forum are "abnormal". We use our phones in ways that most people do not, and we expect/demand features and capabilities that most people do not use or don't care much about.
My simple question is, if you were "normal", if you forget all those extraordinary demands and ways you use your phone, would Windows Phone 7 Series appeal to you?
Feel free to leave a response as to why you answer as you do.

I guess if I were a "normal" person I'd have likes WP7S.. the reason is that, when I got my first WM phone.. it took me about 2 weeks to get everything going (I was a symbian user before).. for me, I could use all the functions of the phone.. but if I gave it to one of my "normal" friends he can't even get access to the music player, they didn't know what the start button was.. I mean let's face WM is complicated for someone who haven't used it before.. but look at the iPhone.. all so plain and is like "click on the program, do what you want, press the home button".. anyone one can use it from the first time.. WP7S is easy to use and that's what is gonna to get it a big market share with the "normal" people..

Experimented...
I did a 15 minutes demo to my girlfriend (not tech savvy at all) to present her the general concepts and behaviors with the unlocked emulator. She liked what she saw a lot. She mostly liked the apparent ease of use and the overall appearance (metro).

I think the iPhone brand is far too entrenched in an mass-market and ordinary consumer's mind by now. That's the biggest huddle for MS to overcome. It might be through very clever marketing campaign as well as to sell WP7S extremely cheaply to appeal to the more budget conscious consumer, or by other method. Likelihood is, by now, every many "normal" consumer will have at least a few friends with iPhone/iPod Touch and they might also have briefly played with these devices and love what they see in iPhone/iPod Touch, which has achieved such incredibly high level of smoothness, user friendliness, and versatility (arising from the fact that you can find applications for almost anything under the sun by now). Among my friends, those who do not already own a smartphone all talk only about iPhone if they're going to get one. They have not even heard of WP7S up to now, if they're "normal". So, ya, lots of work to be done to get them, IMO.

I've shown the thing to my wife, non-tech-savvy colleagues, and my 4 year old daughter (not a target audience, but she uses her mom's iPhone easily). I haven't encountered a single person who wouldn't like it. Many say "wow, that's cool".

I tried to show my girlfriend it and she called me a nerd, but that doesn't matter because I like it anyway.

If I was "Normal" I would not even know about WM7 yet, there has been not official advertising or releases that would be mainstream visible.
When it was finally advertised i would see it in the same light as iPod vs Zune. And we all know who won that.
So, if I was going to go for any device it would be the iPhone, but as a normal person it would be more than I needed so I would likely stick with whatever came free with my plan.
Thank god I am not normal.

No, realy not
If I'm a normal, I'll not go to M$ anymore
Nokia for stability, or if I need an advanced one (as a normal) I'll go to IPHONE
but Microsoft, never ever
The WM6.xx is the best OS ever for business and truly advanced users.

Fa7my said:
I guess if I were a "normal" person I'd have likes WP7S.. the reason is that, when I got my first WM phone.. it took me about 2 weeks to get everything going (I was a symbian user before).. for me, I could use all the functions of the phone.. but if I gave it to one of my "normal" friends he can't even get access to the music player, they didn't know what the start button was.. I mean let's face WM is complicated for someone who haven't used it before.. but look at the iPhone.. all so plain and is like "click on the program, do what you want, press the home button".. anyone one can use it from the first time.. WP7S is easy to use and that's what is gonna to get it a big market share with the "normal" people..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i know here most people either use a nokia phone or the iphone.

y b normal?

If I were "normal" I had a nokia/samsung/whatever dumb phone. actually I even had such a phone before I got myself a Topaz.

Kloc said:
I tried to show my girlfriend it and she called me a nerd, but that doesn't matter because I like it anyway.
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Click to collapse
Haha. Exactly the same here!
"Why are you showing me this - it's not even a real phone yet"
In all honestly, I think the majority of "normal" people will like it (I like the sexyness of it) - though there will always be those that don't!

I don't think WP7 will ever appeal to me! It's simply not a nice OS to look at. Just wait and see, Microsoft will still stay at the same spot. Don't expect them to make a leap forward with this WP7.

The whole premise of this thread is the issue.
There is no "normal user". There are only 3-4 big os right now and the fact is, anyone can like anything. The innovators tell us what we like in accordance to their discoveries and business model.
To contribute fully though. I would be like, "why does this look like my zune?" and I think I would be a little pissed. I think a normal person wouldn't mind some USB mass storage either.

Moved to WP7 Q&A as D&H is the wrong place for this thread

Goodbye Windows Mobile... Hello Android

Retiring my TP2 today. Just had to get that out of my system.
Signed,
Another unsatisfied customer.

Quitter.

You are darn right I am a quitter! And proud of it! I just can't believe I lasted this long.

lame. though i would love an android phone with the form factor of the tp2. the keyboard and tilty screen has made every iphone user i know impossibly jealous. but its not a phone i can recommend because of windows mobile. windows mobile works well, with a custom rom, registry hacks, and custom installed programs. android is just easier out of the box. i look forward to htc releasing an android phone with a good slide out keyboard.

Nobody can blame you for leaving this device. You're the third person who's posted a thread about abandoning the Rhodium, and I doubt you're the last. I'm personally holding out for the HTC Vision and it's beautiful looking QWERTY, but there are so many great options out there it's extremely tempting just to sell my Rhodium on eBay and buy a Desire or some other decent phone right now.

Yeah dude I was originally going to hold out for that HTC Vision also, but I just can't take it any longer. Flashing custom WM ROM's and installing certain cabs and reloading all my tweeks and stuff is just too time consuming. Holy cow do I waste a lot of time reading xda! When you see how fluid some other devices are out there, at some time you have to ask yourself what the point of all this is? There is nothing WM can do that Andoid can not do and better (for me that is). I have tremendous respect for the developers on this site but I think WM is a dying breed. The TP2 should not have been as crippled as it is either.

I dunno, I have to wonder if there's a big difference between your TP2 and my Tilt 2 because I am having very few issues with mine even after modding the hell out of the stock ROM (no compelling reason to go to a cooked one yet). Yeah, WinMo has its issues, but I've been using it since WM2003 on a Viewsonic PDA, so I'm pretty familiar with it. My Tilt 2 does everything I need it to, much like My Incite did. The only reason I upgraded was because I needed a larger screen for my failing eyes. Anyway, I was just ribbing you. I might go to an Android at some point, but for now, my Tilt 2 has me covered. The honeymoon isn't quite over just yet.

I left the party and went over to Android. For me, it was more of a preemptive thing -- WP7 is an abhorrent POS and while I probably would have stuck around if a 4.3" device with WinMo 6.5 was being released, it looks like the TP2 is all she wrote for WinMo.
XDA was absolutely crucial to my being able to use and enjoy my TP2. But I don't have to live with buggy software anymore (actually, the things I got from XDA were stable, but the commercial products were certainly not).
If anyone is interested, Sprint in coming out with the Samsung Epic, a 4" SAMOLED 4G Android device with a slide out keyboard. But I've moved on to the Evo. I've coveted the HD2 and its Snapdragon processor and 4.3" screen for ages.
In the end, MS finally killed whatever enthusiasm I had for the platform.

You know I tried everything. I too modded the stock and still this thing lagged. The best I could do was cooked ROMs but still it was one thing after another that just got me to the point where I was milliseconds away from shattering my phone into a thousand pieces for some gratitude. Talk about rage! I honestly think I have worn out the reset button. And as far as WP7, give me a break. I can't believe that Microsoft is so far behind the game and now they are trying to reinvent the wheel. Cell phones and cell phone technology are a crazy booming and growing business. It's sad when a technology company tries to reverse engineer something because in this day and age by this time it's just too late.

tbh ever since Android came out, i always wanted one but since it started hitting the market, every damn person i know has an Android and it ticks me off because it totally reminds me of how iPhone got all popular, now Android is in that stage, teens are having the Droid incredible, EVO 4Gs its insane because i bet you 95% of them dont even know how to operate it, thats why right now im sticking to my roots by staying with WM because no one knows what the heck it is(except XDA ), i rather have something different from the crowd.....i started with WM and ill hang on to WM until the whole WM thing just dies which probably wont happen for awhile you never know

man thats a tiny slide out keyboard on the vision. im not so sure about that one.

If different is what you are going for then I say stick to WM. Personally for me, I need function and ease of use. To me, Microsoft is their own worst enemy for not delivering without making us spend hours on xda fixing their mistakes. Although it can be fun here on xda, it can be really frustrating as well.

To me, WinMo seems designed by the same people that design the desktop platform and not by people who actually use it every day. Too many things that just don't make sense (but easily fixed by others, fortunately). I think M$ needs to hire a few XDA developers and put them into the development cycle for WinMo. If WinMo 7 isn't a significant improvement it will be the last WinMo version because once the phone manufacturers stop supporting it in favor of Droid and others, death will be imminent.

And when you see Microsoft developing apps for iPhone and Android yet still plug away at their own software ala "Kin the spectacular failure" I can't help but be embarassed to be a part of this. Playing catchup in the tech world is just plain silly to me. Here is an article about it posted 3 days ago:
http://mobile.venturebeat.com/2010/...developers-to-catch-up-to-iphone-and-android/

Don't know if everyone's already seen this:
http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobilize/windows-phone-7-dont-bother-disaster-211

"The developers at Mobile Beat quickly recognized the labor-intensity of this UI method and one asked the Microsoft rep if anyone had bothered to test it with users. The answer was essentially "no" -- a scary thought indeed."
Sounds just like what I said earlier.

Hanson68 said:
Don't know if everyone's already seen this:
http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobilize/windows-phone-7-dont-bother-disaster-211
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then, be sure to read this as well.

I dunno, maybe it's because I've been using WinMo since 2003 but I'm comfortable with it. The biggest problem is there are still remnants in the 6.x versions being used on phones from when it was ported from PDAs back with version 5. Too much stuff designed for a stylus and not a finger. Another problem is that WinMo is not designed for idiots like iPhone users who have no concept of the level of customization that WinMo allows. I like that I have to be more knowledgeable to get the most out of my WinMo phone. It means I can more readily identify when something doesn't work right and why and fix it myself. I also love that I can make my phone more personal and not look like anyone elses. Every iPhone I've ever played around on, with the exception of what apps were on it, was identical to every other one in looks and function. Maybe this is OK for those with limited ability to mod their own phone, but I'm a tinkerer by nature and it would drive me crazy. Been modding my phone since my first RAZR way back in 2006 and wouldn't have it any other way.
I also like that I'm not tied to any one company for apps. For all the complaints I hear about so few developers writing for WinMo I have yet to not find an app for my needs. In fact, there are usually about 4-5 apps that do the same thing and almost always at least one is free. Sure, some are crap, but choice is a good thing. Certainly much better than limits.
I love my Windows Mobile phone and if WP7 improves on it even just a little, I'll probably stick with it.

Personally, I am really liking my WinMo 6.5 tilt 2. Yes, it has a cooked ROM and a few other tweaks, but so did my iphone that I had before this Tilt2. IMHO, as far as useability, and business is concerned, the Tilt2 is all business and not so much a toy (which is what I look for in a phone, since I run a home business from it.).
Scott

I think anybody who has taken the time to flash a custom rom for themselves here can be considered a power user. Everybody on this board wants more than the next guy. But what do you do when you've been let down and this place just isn't enough anymore? I have had Windows CE devices since 2002 and as silly as this sounds, my favorite device was my old T-mobile MDA with WM 5.0. Why? Because it worked. Now I realize that we are trying to do a lot more with our devices, but even simple tasks like text messaging and the actual phone part seems to get worse with each new OS. When I watch the videos for WP7 I am very let down. Customization is key to the MS fanbase. So the things that I would like are either getting worse or going away. Why MS didn't just turn over the whole program to XDA is a real mystery isn't it? Since I honestly think that we are the only ones who really care.

Youtube app - general rant

A friend (sadly an iPhone user) was playing with my Desire the other day, looking up music videos on the Youtube app.
When she searched "eminem love the way you lie" the app returned loads of results, but the official video was way down the list. Everything in the top 10 results was cr*p - people's own covers, parody versions, etc.
My friend went on to say "This phone's search engine is pretty rubbish isn't? My phone just shows me what I want when I search Youtube on it."
I couldn't respond to that. I didn't go to the lengths of making her get her iPhone out to repeat the search, but later on I did it with my laptop and the results shown were very different to what the Android app returned.
Furthermore, whenever she was in a video and pressed the back button to back out to the list, it took 2 presses to get there. The first press just didn't do anything most of the time. Again, she was not impressed.
These are minor niggles, but I can see why the general sheeple think the iPhone is the best thing since sliced bread - it just does everything they expect of it. Sure, my Desire kicks any iPhone all over the street in many different ways, but I was a bit gutted that my phone didn't impress her in the way it should've.
Remember, this person is someone who doesn't know how to turn her wifi on/off, doesn't know if/how she can change her alert tones or wallpaper, doesn't know if/how her phone has an Airplane Mode - frankly is clueless to even half the features her iPhone has - so she wouldn't appreciate the finer nuances of Android. Yet in her mind, her phone is better than mine.
This is just one experience using Youtube. Anyone else find the app leaves a bit to be desired (no pun intended)?

Did the same test (Eminem) and yeah, random stuff before official video...doesn't bother me but I can see how some people might get annoyed with it

Well it never bothered me before since I rarely use Youtube that much anyway, but having to click through about 9 videos before finding the one you actually want is pretty poor really.
I mean I'm no programmer, but Google OS + Google app connecting to Google service, using what was 5mths ago the best hardware around = easiest win on the planet. Or it should've been!!

It's this sort of stuff that will convert iPhoners in the long run - most of them couldn't give a crap about root privileges, or downloading files from the internet, or customising their iPhones - at least they won't until they have an alternative that can do the basics very, very well. That's when they will consider changing & also realise what else they were missing.
The Android browser is pretty kick-ass - except the text selection method makes me want to kill myself. HTC's Sense text-select is a much better attempt, similar to the iPhone - but the Sense browser only lets you open 4 pages at a time, highly annoying. I know there are other browsers out there, but I think that having a phone that is awesome out of the box is key - most people don't want to eff around testing browser alternatives.
Another example is the Facebook app - granted it has got better recently, but it's still rubbish compared to the iPhone offering. Yet this is something that MANY millions of people use multiple times a day. Google should just send a team of their best engineers over to Facebook HQ for a couple of months. Either that or just throw $20 million over to Facebook and tell them to write something that destroys the iPhone app in comparison.
Lots of people moan about the likes of HTC/HelloMoto/Sammy laying their skins over Android, but stock Android leaves a lot to be desired, which is why they do it. Dialer/contacts management - rubbish. Music player/media handling - rubbish. Notification window shade - great idea, but looks like it's stuck in the 1990s. Launcher - looks f***ing great, but feels clunky as it has a strange inertia built-in that stops it flowing more than a few lines at a time.
When all the built in and popular 3rd party apps are kick-ass, and the OS looks/feels modern and appealing on it's own, then people will consider dumping their iPhones. And when they discover what they can do what they never used to be able to, then they will never go back.
I get friends and work colleagues asking me what phone they should buy. And I used to say "this Android phone" but this has just resulted in me getting support questions when things don't work properly - "Why doesn't my Orange Hero see Angry Birds in the Market when her Vodafone Desire does?" "Why doesn't my auto-brightness work?" "Why don't I have Google Navigation?" "Why isn't there an Android app like this iPhone app?" And with so many different versions spread over so many handsets, it's literally impossible to know everything about every fault/problem/limitation.
It's just a lot more hassle than it's worth, unless the person with the phone is prepared to put some work in and do research, and learn about their phones. Which most people aren't. So these days I just tell them to get an iPhone if they can afford it! I feel like a traitor...

I've always been a tinkerer, be it PCs or phones, so I like being able to piss about with my phone. Owning an iPhone would do my nut in BUT the iPhone 4 is the first one I've looked and thought 'yeah, I'd have one of them'

Yes, the iPhone 4 certainly looks the part doesn't it? I do find myself with a bit of phone-envy when you look at the hardware, and the ultra-smooth scrolling, and the flashy apps (which p*ss all over most Android apps from a great height).
Don't get me wrong, I'd never buy one. But I can see exactly why most people either do have one, or want one (if they can't afford to have one).
The only reason Android has got as far as it has in the open market (read: general public) is because handset makers are pushing it, and because you can get handsets at a variety of price points and form factors. If Android had been in a one on one head to head (with just one handset choice) against the iPhone then it would be pretty much gone by now. It's now time for Google to step up to the plate and give us something that blows iOS away!
EDIT: I realise it already blows iOS away for technical function/ability - but I'm talking about eye-candy, full-featuredness and ease of use for the average Joe.

The YouTube app search nuisance is definitely one I agree with (it was actually my partner [iPhone 4 user, not avid, nor mad about it though] who complained about it first to me and on checking, I agreed with her).
-----------------------------------
- Sent via my HTC Desire -

Glad I tried it, but...

I don't think I am a fan of Android. I admit, I was enthused, at first, but after spending a few days playing around with XDAndroid on my Tilt 2, I'm convinced that I'm in no hurry to upgrade my phone. I've been a WinMo user since 2003, so I'm pretty familiar with its strengths and weaknesses and how to overcome most of them. Droid does some things well (reflowing web pages when zooming is one), but it seems more like a Mac to me in the way that a lot of the OS is inaccessible to the user unlike WinMo. As a tinkerer/modder, I feel like WinMo lets me get under the hood easier and better and in more ways. I'm sure my short exposure to Android is probably not unbiased, but I just couldn't find the customizability level that WinMo has built-in to it. It looks good, it worked OK (a bit sluggish, horrendous battery usage and no BT didn't let me really enjoy it), but it just felt too rigid compared to the flexibility I'm used to with WinMo.
I do have to give props to the people behind porting this to work on my Tilt 2. I'm sure it wasn't easy. Thanks to all you developers who share your talents here and on PPCGeeks. Gonna play with it a little more, but I'm no longer feeling any Droid envy.

Well I guess it depends on how you look at it... there's no registry, but there's so many other ways to modify things within Android... After all, the source code is all available, and with a little bit of knowledge you can change anything.
Plus, don't chalk up poor performance and lack of BT to Android... our builds are NOT like native Android phones - don't expect it to be anytime soon either... Perhaps one day we'll get it close, but this phone has a tired old processor. Not many native Android phones have our slow processors & run Froyo
Heck, we'll probably run Gingerbread before 90% of the native Android devices officially get it!
Either way, this is just meant to be tested/had fun with. It's not supposed to replace WinMo

Yeah, I didn't expect it to be a replacement. I'm sure if I invested the time (like I have with WinMo) I would find all kinds of ways to bend Android to my will. I guess I just like what I'm used to better. The Android interface is too iPhone like for my tastes. I like having program groups, not a page full of icons of unrelated programs that I have to scroll through. I like that I have different backgrounds on all my screens and that I can access System items by category instead of scrolling through menu after menu. I did spend some time looking through the Android Market and was impressed by the number of apps, especially free ones, but I've yet to not find an app available for WinMo for the way I use the phone, most of them free, as well. I'm not convinced that Windows Phone 7 is the answer and I will NEVER buy an iPhone, so I will probably end up on some Android phone in the future. At least, thanks to this little preview, I know I don't need to switch anytime soon and can keep using my Tilt 2 until it dies.

arrrghhh said:
Well I guess it depends on how you look at it... there's no registry, but there's so many other ways to modify things within Android... After all, the source code is all available, and with a little bit of knowledge you can change anything.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Personally I consider the lack of a registry a -good- thing.

****ing confirmed yihaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

F22 said:
Personally I consider the lack of a registry a -good- thing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
agreed... sometimes

Miami_Son said:
Yeah, I didn't expect it to be a replacement. I'm sure if I invested the time (like I have with WinMo) I would find all kinds of ways to bend Android to my will. I guess I just like what I'm used to better. The Android interface is too iPhone like for my tastes. I like having program groups, not a page full of icons of unrelated programs that I have to scroll through. I like that I have different backgrounds on all my screens and that I can access System items by category instead of scrolling through menu after menu. I did spend some time looking through the Android Market and was impressed by the number of apps, especially free ones, but I've yet to not find an app available for WinMo for the way I use the phone, most of them free, as well. I'm not convinced that Windows Phone 7 is the answer and I will NEVER buy an iPhone, so I will probably end up on some Android phone in the future. At least, thanks to this little preview, I know I don't need to switch anytime soon and can keep using my Tilt 2 until it dies.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm with you 100% there! I still love playing with XDAndroid though... any time I start getting bored with WinMo I come play with it. One thing it did clarify for me is the difference between 'application' (WinMo) and 'app' (Android and IPhone) and I now understand why there are more 'apps' on the market... they're more single purpose where WinMo is more of a 'suite'.

This is not a flame as much as it is a testament to the great dev's here at XDA who work so hard at making these Android ports.
Having been forced to use WinMo due to "company policy" and using an Android device on the "sly", I would take Android over WinMo hands down. That is my personal opinion and choice.
And apparently the DEV's have done a great job at porting over XDAndroid to the TP2/Tilt2 as I noticed Miami_Son's signature now states Samsung Captivate (Android Device) as the primary phone and HTC Tilt 2 as "(going soon)."
I just found some humor in that.

Miami_Son said:
I don't think I am a fan of Android. I admit, I was enthused, at first, but after spending a few days playing around with XDAndroid on my Tilt 2, I'm convinced that I'm in no hurry to upgrade my phone. I've been a WinMo user since 2003, so I'm pretty familiar with its strengths and weaknesses and how to overcome most of them. Droid does some things well (reflowing web pages when zooming is one), but it seems more like a Mac to me in the way that a lot of the OS is inaccessible to the user unlike WinMo. As a tinkerer/modder, I feel like WinMo lets me get under the hood easier and better and in more ways. I'm sure my short exposure to Android is probably not unbiased, but I just couldn't find the customizability level that WinMo has built-in to it. It looks good, it worked OK (a bit sluggish, horrendous battery usage and no BT didn't let me really enjoy it), but it just felt too rigid compared to the flexibility I'm used to with WinMo.
I do have to give props to the people behind porting this to work on my Tilt 2. I'm sure it wasn't easy. Thanks to all you developers who share your talents here and on PPCGeeks. Gonna play with it a little more, but I'm no longer feeling any Droid envy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's what ive been saying... its a great gimmick, but im just a windows fan at heart. I mean, games are great on it. Its like, if im picking someone up and im waiting for them, just boot up droid. Its like a mini arcade. I like that about it. the fact i can switch over from business to play. But for everyday use, winmo is just soooo much better for me. great interface. sense is a hog, but whatever. I flash my phone daily so I dont notice anything. i get a fraction of the errors with winmo i do with android.
Dont get me wrong, these ports are BADD-EFFIN-ASS!!! I mean just look at them, you can see the amount of time and energy they put into them. And ill continue to use it as an arcade... but a daily driver??? nnaaahhh
winmo=way2go

I too was a long timer with Winmo (since 2003) before they were integrated with phones...blablabla cough cough old school.
I discovered Android through my touchPro2 and was quite impressed how close I could get to Winmo's capabilities. The early versions of the kernel definitely needed to mature for a few years but in my opinion is now up to scratch...
I acquired the desire HD and have just been blown away by the extent of its capabilities like I was with Winmo in the old days.
Integration of apps within the OS actually make it grow stronger rather than stalls it if you guys see where I'm coming from.
What killed Winmo for me was its lack of good memory and screen resolution management.
All I'm eager to see is a good Office suite replacement and maybe TomTom but doesn't mean I can't edit word docx and navigate...(not at the same time of course).
Lastly, let's be real, Microsoft has pulled the plug on Winmo and Devs have moved on... It's almost as if I was still trying to get divx running on my poor Amiga (which I loved so much but had to let go).
That was my humble opinion, hope it will be understood accordingly. (now where is that Amiga emulator, lol)
Dodsin.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App