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hi
i want to get as many ppl on this band wagon.... DOnt buy any new ppcs.. lets wait it out and try to get companys like o2,vodafone,qtek and imate to give us 2005 upgrades...
i figure if we dont buy..they might just give in...
BTW: applause to HP and dell for the upgrades
Hello!
Do we know that they are NOT gonna offer this upgrade to us?
Björn
well not sure about s and i
but somebody did get some reply to a mail that 1.72 was the last
rom for xdaII from o2 or something
actually no confirmation yet.. but judging from the support or lack of it more to the point from imate etc.. i can safely assume they will not..
plus the best defence is a good offence..
Hello!
Why is everybody complaining about the support? What has happend?
Björn
I'm having trouble understanding how 2005 can realistically work properly on an XDA2...
isn't it a bit like putting XP on a PentiumII 333?
Ant
well newer pda's with 2005 is not that more powerfull then xda2's
cpu speed or memory have not really skyrocket'd that much
newer devices just come with wifi really and maybe 500Mhz cpu's insted of 400
and VGA
RE
I would be happy if O2 gives my O2 XDA II the WM2003SE upgrade... with a small fee though.
What makes you think they would provide the WM2005 upgrade?
I think O2 is trying to monopolize the market.
@zohaer21: i can agree on your frustration cause the product is not made compatible with other types then the xdaII, coincidentally the type being used the most probably and being modified to the rightful end-owners wishes use, likely against the wishes of the developers.
WM2k5 is launched but forgot to mention that at this moment it's only available for a certain type of mobile phone. Which type of wm2k5 is being discussed and described on all the sites? Neato.
Applause to HP & Dell indeed. Their prices are the same as XDA types yet their upgrades on software... ohlala, what a difference.
@WaspWorld: reading many informational sites on Mobile phones, it's more like one local/geographical user will have luck and another can bite the dust, which is wrong yes. Try finding a general QTek support site, you'll end up biting the dust paying more where you bought it.
@ Anton: from what I've been reading here, wm2k5 runs smooth on an xdaII. Isn't more like it's built with more extras, so the end-user would be obliged to buy a new phone because the current phone doesn't support it? Remember the fact that it's (new) software with new 'features'.
I could get XP running on a PentiumI 200MMX, sluggish system but it ran ok, bugged out the non-necessities and it ran better.
@Rudegar: true, so it's not that the xdaII isn't up for wm2k5.
by not upgrading ?
they dont make their money selling the devices
since the device cost alot more if you dont get it
with a cellphoen subscription
so they are spending money when people buy their phones
of cause they plan on making even more on the subscription
the reason i think they would not offer the upgrade is because of
the support cost it would bring yet another platform for their tech's to
advice people about how to get working and how to get working like their old nokia worked and ....
and about monopolize then i guess that depend on where you are
because they are not present here at all
@Rudegar: so true. That's why large OEM companies like HP & Dell have such a large support staff. For the rest of them like most of use are subject to, it's tougher to provide excellent support. I guess that's one of the major reasons for the existence of this forum.
I think they will never offer an uograde to make us looking always for the missing things as I am sure they will never offer us the device of our dreams. there will be always something missing to look forward to buy it when they offer it in a new device lacking some other things,... and so on
I wouldn't say I love Microsoft, but they do have the market for computer software and I do have quite a bit of their hardware, the MS stearing wheel been a fine bit of kit.
I have used Windows operating systems since Windows 3.1 to the present XP (Vista any day now). I have been using a PocketPC for the past few years with software ranging from Windows Mobile 2003 to the 2005 version, all under licence from the vendor I bourght the phone from.
Whilst the pre packaged software on my PDA is all good and well I have had a much more productive and fun time using my device since I stumbled across XDA-developers.com website, usefull information, people who are in the same boat and development on the software to only increese the usabillity of it.
This is the reason I started this thread.
Everyone that own's a PocketPC/PDA has bourght it. This means that once the device has been bourght you have paid for the Microsoft licence of the installed software.
When you buy a copy of Windows for your home or business computer you have a few differnet ways you can install the software, there are lots of third party bits of software you can install, so you can customize the way your computer is setup.
Microsoft are gonna make xda-developers.com to take down the files that are posted on this site.
I believe that as we have all payed to have the software on our PDA's we have the right to have any version that we want, modified or not. Yes, we shouldn't have versions that haven't been "officially" realeased on our PDA's but even with those there are people who have got the ROM's and made them better.
Microsoft should be quite gratefull that there are people out there to make a bit of software they have developed even better, why should it be any skin of there noses for a bit of software they have allready been paid for!!!
Microsoft can't stop new ROM's been realesed on the internet, if Vista is on all the torrent sites there's no way they are gonna stop a new Windows Mobile ROM appearing.
To conclude...Microsoft should know a good thing when they see it. XDA-Developers.com is that!
Well laid out. I totally agree with you. What M$ doesn't understand is that more roms will start to fly around on un-monitored sites. These sites will lack the support provided at xda-developers and customer complains will sky rocket through the roofs.
Like jack bauer say... "Damn it M$", we need our own Chloe O'brian (a mean betatester)... YOU GUYS!
LONG LIFE XDA-DEVELOPERS!!!
You are right !
M$ have a basic problem in their buisness concept ... not letting people have the freedom that they need and want to upgrade and evolve their OS
And that's why (i believe) people are starting to switch to other OS like OSX or linux.
I am very much afraid that it will also start happening in our mobile decives with symbian and others ...
because although WM5 (and 6) tend to .... crash, hang, or just not work, in my opinion it is the most versitile OS there is .... plenty of programs for it ... and plenty of programmers making new stuff as they go, and that's without including ROM maker which are a whole highly respectable group on their own.
I believe that it is our decision to upgrade, as well as our legal right(for the OS' price is no doubt included in the device's retail price) BUT people must have no right to complain after screwing with their device or worse (bricking it).
And in that respect i agree with M$.
So i propose the middle ground, asking M$ if writing a diclaimer here on XDA that users must go through before downloading and/or upgrading their device will do, and hope that they accept.
if not ...
find a legal loophole, because I for one am not willing to give XDA up just yet !
sorry if i bored you guys, but that's just the way i feel about this whole thing.
UPGRADE ON !
heh.
I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them. Two things I would like to say in response to this.
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with, unlike my SPV M5000 which was crashing on a daily basis, even with their latest ROM, until I updated it with a ROM from this forum. Had I not been saved by this this amazing forum, I would have demanded a refund, Orange would have lost money and I would have moved to a different company.
2) People who update their phones with ROM images from this forum should know better than to seek support from their mobile operator after having updated their ROM. They should have known that they would not like this.
Now we all have to suffer.
They'll have to face't!
columbo said:
I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them. Two things I would like to say in response to this.
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with, unlike my SPV M5000 which was crashing on a daily basis, even with their latest ROM, until I updated it with a ROM from this forum. Had I not been saved by this this amazing forum, I would have demanded a refund, Orange would have lost money and I would have moved to a different company.
2) People who update their phones with ROM images from this forum should know better than to seek support from their mobile operator after having updated their ROM. They should have known that they would not like this.
Now we all have to suffer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have never gone to my mobile operator nor the phone support service center! I have not a single doubt in my mind that I know better than the "technician" sitting behind his desk claiming to fix my PDA whenever it hicks up!
This forum and only THIS FORUM, helped 100K of people to fix their own PDAs and even created a wide knowledge to those beginners who knew nada about roms or tweaking pdas!
But sorry to say that OS developers have gone too far this time and as it was rightly said, the tighter and tougher they become the more roms ther will be out there even more than they can imagine, since it is a challenge they've started, they'll have to face't.
columbo said:
I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that, in this case, M$ is hiding itself behind the mobile operators. Bit too easy, ain't it...
In the end
In the end it all comes down to this:
We ALL get F*CKED in the (*) by Bill Gates and his friends
bastiaanoskam said:
In the end it all comes down to this:
We ALL get F*CKED in the (*) by Bill Gates and his friends
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What an amazingly constructive comment you made there...... I would say that this is just a part of life and there is nothing we can do about it. To be honest we all knew this course of action was inevitable.
This action is corporate companies trying to protect there product - can you really blame them for that....... Money makes the world go round and all that...
columbo said:
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well why don't they employ US
I am unemployed atm...
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?xdadevs
Done !
Even if i run with the official orange Rom (because i'm scared of ROM update !), i support this petition !
What to do to avoid persons "cooking" their own ROMS ???
Release a GOOD ROBUST ROM, with fine tuning...
I must wait for about one minute, each time i soft reset my device...
Is it a optimized ROM ???
I signed. I haven't updated because there isn't one for my PPC, but I support anyone's right to do with their property what they wish.
I just did so too...
me too. petition FTW!
Petition
I read about petition on a thread then couldn't find where to sign. Found it now but maybe links should be posted in more places for more people to see.
Keep up the good work. This site is excellent.
up
up
sign it
we need you
Signed,
I don't see microsoft's problem though, the images are free from the providers, the device includes a license to run windows mobile on it, installing a new image displaces the old image, so it's still one license, one copy of WM on the device...
How is running a copy of windows mobile on a licensed device against MS?
By their rationale though, if I installed XP on my machine, from a friend's CD, but used my key, is it legal? from what MS are intimating here, no, yet I am using the license I own on My machine...
Bears thinking about really...
I don't understand
Very strange...
First the Palm vs. Pocket PC debate. Then the Palm / PPC / RIM-BB argument. Soon to come the PPC vs. iPhone. Microsoft is always trying to expand markets and displace other technologies. You would think that this momentum would help them, right?
Suddenly, a group of dedicated people bring a long delayed upgrade to our devices without any obvious or flagrant licensing violation (unless the next step is to charge us all for the OS upgrade for the devices we have already licensed), and Microsoft reaction is to try to shut it down?
Perhaps they are planning to buy RIM and want us all to move to Blackberries. At least I wont have to reboot once a day....
Signed...!!!!
Lets hope Micro$oft see sense and not just a chance of screwing someone for $$$$$$$$$$$
Though I am sad as well and personally endorse the use of cooked roms, I can understand Microsoft's point of view:
1) HTC devices are locked to one of the OEM manufactures, i.e. T-Mobile (MDA), Qtek, iMate, etc. The upgrades only work on the correct OEM-brand.
2) OEM manufacturers have to PURCHASE the updates from Microsoft.
3) OEM manufacturers may or may not decide to release (buy and give it for free or for a fee) to it's customers.
The way XDA-Developers provided all the rom's with the necessary tool to allow the installation of any rom-flavour to any OEM version would basically cause:
1) That OEM manufacturer A would pay MS for the upgrade and all other OEM manufacturers would benefit from it for free.
2) MS to be in a difficult position to be able to charge for the upgrades.
3) A considerable amount of broken devices which would have to be repaired (flashed) for free, as it would be difficult or expensive to prove that the cause is due to the use of improper ROM's or improper procedures to upgrade.
The final argument to the question "why doesn't MS provide the ROM's for free, as the current ones have bugs?":
1) All programs/OS have bugs.
2) It is normal to pay for upgrades.
3) MS needs to pay it's developers and is a company that aims profit.
The only valid question would be, in my opinion: "why doesn't MS sell upgrades to end-users?".
Please don't get me wrong: I have nothing to do with MS and hate the current situation as anyone else. I just hate to always read "MS sucks, everything should be free, etc.".
If you use ilegal ROM's, that's fine with me. But at least UNDERSTAND that they are ilegal!!!
I think it would be best to just use upload servers, instead of having an FTP server. One always will find the necessary files - what's really important about XDA-Developers is the KNOWLEDGE. It would be a shame to have the whole site shut down because of copyright infringements caused by some ROM's.
Cheers,
vma
Done! I support what Crash Override mentioned. And after all, I've purchased a Windows Mobile phone not from a Network provider, but SIM FREE .. It was sold to me with a license to use Windows mobile 5 ... which never mentions the version. Just like PC's Windows licenses. Anyway - I hope they realise soon that people would buy more Windows Mobile phones if they had more freedom to do with them what they want afterwards.
If not the flexibility, there are other great phones on the market, which aren't flexible at all - but have stable and well designed OS's.
So Mr. Gates Your vision in the 80's started well with trying to put Windows in every house. Now you are going for the mobiles - which is great, but don't restrict your users more than necessary or you will start loosing them. The more people can play with these phones, the more they will want them!
Knowing this site and seeing the rules as they are I know the site wouldn't allow pirated software on the site. You guys don't even allow talking about it.
Well, when I told a friend I got WM6 for my phone he is swearing up and down with me that it is pirated and that I am in Denial (which makes no sense). I honestly can't explain how it isn't illegal, so I figured I would let you guys tell me how to explain this.
You can't explain it because it is a form of piracy. Unless you put exactly the same version of software back on your phone with at most a few things removed, it's a pirated version. If you've put anything on it that isn't freely given out in the rom that you didn't have before than it's pirated.
This site doesn't condone warez or illegal distribution of applications.The difference is that in order to make use of these rom changes, you have to OWN a device purchased with the microsoft software to begin with.
So why would MS take the time to contact the site to remove some Roms and not all or these?
I would have also assumed pirated if it wasn't for the post to people asking for warez. If they allow one and not the other that isn't right, so I figured it was totally legal to have WM6. Maybe the same way I had Windows Longhorn (vista) back in the development days legally.
Our goal here is to make the software that you legally purchased with your $700 device actually work the way it was intended to work. We don't offer apps that aren't prepackaged with these devices. You purchased a WindowsMobile license when you purchased your device.
There's a complex relationship between m$, device manufacturers and Operators. Each makes changes to these devices. Consider XDA-Developers to be somewhere between the device manufacturer and the Operator level.
yeah, technically you paid for a microsoft license when you bought your phone. Still, copying these WM6 cooked ROMs ARE a form of piracy. But it does'nt really matter seeing as HTC is planning to Release a WM6 update anyway. we just got it a bit early.
Our phones came with WM5 not WM6
but.. HTC released WM6 for their devices but our phone carriers may never release them to us
Come on guys this ROMs are not Paireted as they are not sold off the shelf... this is not windos XP Pro or Vista... this is a per loaded software on the devices and most of the or at least HTC is giving free upgrade....
but the ROM upgrade VOID's your hardware Warranty... as its stated in your Warranty terms...
So basically the terms of use for mobile phones is not the same as desktop software because you have no choice but to purchase a legit license for WM when you buy the phone?
truffle1234 said:
Come on guys this ROMs are not Paireted as they are not sold off the shelf.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So then, a movie leaked on the Internet before it's actual release date is not pirated?
todd_jg said:
So then, a movie leaked on the Internet before it's actual release date is not pirated?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is not the point. The line, though a thin one, seems to be over whether you would normally have to PAY for the software. Thus depriving someone/corporation of revenue it would normally receive.
WM6 will not be charged for. So within those parameters does not fall within the the strict term "Piracy".
That's pretty close Wam7. Operators and/or hardware developers pay licensing fees to m$ for every device they sell. That cost is supposedly subsidized in the price we pay. Therefore, as you say, revenues aren't decreased by our work here. With Warez, this isn't the case as the hacker deprives the author of revenue with every hacked version that gets used.
This is why we don't tolerate Warez here.
Mcrosoft Offering Windows Mobile 6 Free
In this article:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/...ws-mobile-6-upgrade-for-device-manufacturers/
It is apparent that Windows Mobile 6 is being offered as a free upgrade to device manufacturers. In reality, what we early adopters are doing is beta testing the OS prior to final release. Microsoft, with their droves of legal experts, may wish to twist this into some sort of piracy, ip, rights issue to save face or just to be a$$hole$, and carriers may wish to add and take away what they want as well (I believe it was Cingular that whined to M$ about XDA-Developers), but the REALITY is that nobody here is doing anything more than unauthorized beta testing of an OS that has been released FOR FREE to device manufacturers. It may be more of a gray area when it comes to the addon applications that sometimes come bundled with the cooked ROMS, or as separate addons (i.e. Cyberon Voice Command), but only if the device you purchased did not originally include the same software. I am NOT a lawyer, and I am sure a lawyer could argue against my point just as easily as they could argue that a child molester is a victim of society. Nonetheless, I do not feel like I am doing anything wrong, and, in fact, I felt very annoyed at Cingular when they refused to give me a refund for my 8525 after I decided it was unusable 45 days after getting one (30 days is the policy for returns). My 8525 sat in a drawer for months, until I decided to flash with a WM6 ROM from this site. Suddenly, it worked! No more freezing, no more bluetooth bullcrap, no more missed calls. I agree with sleuth 100% when he says that what we are trying to do is get our devices to work as they should (stable, fast, trouble free). Despite the constant whining that some of the geeks on this site continue doing about petty bullcrap, bless them for stepping up and delivering a working product to those of us that would otherwise have to sit and wait for a bloated crapware ROM from Cingular with that POS "Get Express Mail" and "Get Telenav" cooked into it, and bless the power users who truly beta test the product to help make a better ROM.
Firehawkns said:
Knowing this site and seeing the rules as they are I know the site wouldn't allow pirated software on the site. You guys don't even allow talking about it.
Well, when I told a friend I got WM6 for my phone he is swearing up and down with me that it is pirated and that I am in Denial (which makes no sense). I honestly can't explain how it isn't illegal, so I figured I would let you guys tell me how to explain this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who cares, MS is not going out of business, nor will the price of XP/Vista or my next HTC phone go down if I paid for WM6. I dont see Bill Gates eating in a soup kitchen.....oh and the fact that WM6 will be given free as an upgrade can make all the others feel warm and not dirty about themselves.
You see though why it still is piracy, at least right now. For every device running this wm6 software microsoft should have received a payment. If for some reason cingular decides not to upgrade these afterall (I'm just using this as hypothetical) then microsoft is in fact loosing some money. WM6 is not a free upgrade, that misprint was shot down by several new articles after it came out. The reason this form of piracy is accepted is because the end user has no possible way to PAY for the software legally, you have zero options to legally aquire the newer OS. Thus your pirating it becomes a "gray" area of the law.
This is no different than the canadians stealing DTV's signal from the US. They could not legally aquire the signal, their payment would not be accepted, thus they turned to the only other way to get it. That's of course all changed recently.
wpbear said:
Who cares, MS is not going out of business, nor will the price of XP/Vista or my next HTC phone go down if I paid for WM6. I dont see Bill Gates eating in a soup kitchen.....oh and the fact that WM6 will be given free as an upgrade can make all the others feel warm and not dirty about themselves.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh trust me I don't care. I have 3 pirated XP pro machines running at my house. We just got in a discussion about it so I wanted to see what the answer was. It all started because of all the hell he gives me for my software habbits.
Hey, where is the EULA that I supposedly agreed to? I don't see one anywhere.
and since when do we have pirated beta software? Man, we're been risking our precious device to beta test WM6 for them.
Hmmm.... Well, I think that Microsoft may disagree with that.
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12837
Similarly, other boards have taken a different view.
http://www.phonenews.com/blog/content/view/133/11/
upgrade the Cingular 8125 from Windows Mobile 5 to Windows Mobile 6. That would be a product upgrade and not a product update, and would require a new license from Microsoft
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Also, the argument could be well made that putting WM6 on a device for which it was not intended DECREASES the sales of the devices it is supposed to go on - limiting upgrades. This would most definitely cut revenue - for the device manufacturers, M$ and the carriers who leverage the upgrades for contract extensions.
That said, I agree that it is a very fine line and that both sides of the argument can be made. However, in a courtroom fight, my money is on M$.
Back in the day when direct tv hacking was very easy the canadian government said this.
If you can't buy it, its not stealing.
Same thing applies here in my opinion based on software.
going back to direct tv hacking they also said if it falls in your backyard then its owned by you. What did direct tv do? They made it harder to decrypt their signals. Solved their piracy problem, even if it was legal in some countries.
I like this thread - I hope people don't mind this philosophical discussion and that they take it as a fun mental exercise, not an argument.
exstatica said:
canadian government said this.
If you can't buy it, its not stealing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, then you would not mind if I came to your house and took your refrigerator, which is not currently for sale? Not sure about that one - seems overly simplistic. The fact that it is not currently "on the market" is not the same as saying that it has no monetary value.
they also said if it falls in your backyard then its owned by you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think that this argument would apply here. Surely the signals from DirecTV were being blasted down into your yard by a satellite. I think they Internet is quite different. Hmmm.... interesting though.
Hi, sorry if this has already been asked before.
I'm a small business owner and software developer and have been a keen Windows Mobile Developer and have several products which users currently run on WM6 iPaq PDAs.
The cost of WM6 iPAQ PDAs is currently about £240 and as they are probably no longer being manufactured they will soon become like hens teeth(very scarce).
Currently WM7 only supports Managed code with silverlight. All my apps are written using Visual MFC.
Question 1
I need to know if there is even a hint that WM7 may support unmanaged code in the near future? Can anyone tell me this.
If not then I will have to invest in porting all my apps to the iPhone platform. Why? Because then they can run on the iPOD Touch which will cost the user about £160 (My apps don't need to run on a phone)
Question 2
Does anyone know of a device that runs WM7 that is not a phone? (Like iPAQ 114).
Question 3
Does anyone else out there find themselves in my situation?
I look forward to your replies.
What's WM7?
There is no Windows Mobile 7, there's nothing after Windows Mobile 6.
Windows Phone 7 is an entirely new platform that does not support unmanaged code, hence your MFC/c++ programs will not run on it. It only supports c# and silverlight and xda for now, Microsoft hasn't been forth coming on development plans but it's highly unlikely it will support unmanaged code.
You have to rethink your business, maybe look into other platforms if you're in the mobile device software writing business, as you said windows mobile 6 is going the way of the dodo.
Jim Coleman said:
What's WM7?
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Click to collapse
This actually made me laugh at work, now everyone knows i'm not working lol.
Get the iPhone, and don't forget MobileMe.
Spare us the trouble...
Who uses PDAs? Those iPaqs ate terrible. Better off getting an iTouch or (gasps!) Palm Pre Plus (ATT or Verizon) if your gonna stoop that low.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
don't knock him for using PDAs, they're still very commonly used in business circles as a lot of programs were written years back.
you have your answers already... at present, they don't support managed code.
PDA Apps will work on Windows Mobile smartphones.
They have close to no use, IMO.
I had an iPAQ (still have it, in the closet). They're obsolete for all practical purposes. Smartphones have replaced them.
Don't waste money on a PDA. A PMP, maybe (though that dubious with WP7 and iPhones out there usurping iTouches and ZuneHDs). A PDA, no.
If you want a great business device, then you can always consider a Blackberry Torch or HTC HD2, or perhaps a Nokia N8. They aren't the latest and/or greatest, but those systems [still] work great for business. If you want to work and play, then I guess you have to look to iOS or WP7.
Android phone capabilities vary by device and manufacturer. I cannot give a great hypothesis on them even though I've owned multiple Android phones.
WP7 will grow into a great business OS, but Microsoft has made consumers the focus for the launch - because smartphones aren't just for business (the way PDAs chiefly were used).
in terms of business use where you have a POS, you do not need to pay the additional $150 to $250 per device for the phone functionality. especially when you have to get a lot of them. businesses use PDAs where need be, and phones where need be.
Windows Phone 7 as far a official Microsoft information goes is not going to support unmanaged code. Deployment-wise you will face the same problem on WP7 as on iOS: everything has to go through the marketplace.
Even though you can program iOS using C++ I guess your porting will still very much result in a rewrite of most of the code. Especially if you made heavy use of MFC classes.
Taking all this into consideration I'd actually suggest you go the Android route as there are several cheap phones available that run Android. Additionally Android supports native code as an option.
i believe iOS is actually objective-C, not C++. So it's a different dinosaur all together... (but still prehistoric at that)