I'm not sure of the legal basis for O2 refusing to supply onlock codes (which they have done with me 3 times now, despite others' success), so I have decided to complain to OFCOM.
1) I don't see how they can control what I do with a phone I have bought privately, SIM free on the open market.
2) I have no contract with them, so they cannot bind me to anything. They have tried telling me I can have the unlock code when I have had my PAYG SIM for a year; however, this is nothing to do with the xda. These were two separate transactions. There is no term in my SIM contract relating to a particular phone.
3)the original owner still has a contract with them and is using his SIM in his new phone, thus they are not losing out. Furthermore, by refusing to unlock it they are getting two customers from one contract.
4) It is anti-competitive, as I cannot choose to go to a cheaper network (I want to use T-Mobile for the free voicemail). They could raise their PAYG tariff astronomically, and I would still have to use O2 or my phone would be useless. I am also unable to use a foreign SIM card when abroad, thus am tied in to expensive international calls, with the money going to O2.
5) What would I do if O2 go bust or cease to trade, or fail to get their licence renewed, etc? My phone would be absolutely useless.
Below is the link I have used to register my complaint. If they are inundated with complaints, hoefully they will do something about it.
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/contact_ofcom/general_complaint
Cathy
I guess I am playing Devil's Advocate, but I have to say that I see there point.
Otherwise, ANYONE could buy an XDA2 for just one example, sell it on at a high profit from the subsidisation cost he/she paid/will pay through the contract term, and make a tidy profit there and then, whilst still selling it to you for less than an unlocked SIM free handset from the likes of eBay.
I appreciate your views, BUT, to the letter of the law, UNTIL the original purchaser fulfills his 12 months, its technically not even HIS to sell to you.
Its a grey area, but to the letter of the law, that's the situation.
We ALL know that in reality it doesn't work that way, and we all sell stuff on before the 12 months is up, knowing that we as the original owner are liable to ensure we see out the 12 months.
BUT, in your case however, you are not talking about a day to day ownership, but arguing a point of law because of the difficult situation you are in.
And as I outlined, this is one of the very reasons why, to the letter of the law, its not even meant to pe permissable to even sell it on to you.
It becomes the property of the original purchaser, only at the point he has satisfied his 12 month term, and only then is he really meant to sell it.
We all know this isn't what happens, but it DOES mean we are not in any position to argue law, if we choose to agree to buying it.
Otherwise, i could buy a £120 XDA2 from onestop, with a contract bringing it to £360 all in, over a year, BUT sell it straight on to you now for £400, unopened, sealed, brand new in effect, sim free, and make a tidy profit of £40, AND spread the rest of my repayments to O2, IF they were to then instantly agree to give you the unlock code.
An unlikely scenario to say the least.
(All this of course aside from the fact that the XDA2 can easily be unlocked using any of the tools on this site - including the latest ROM version I beleive - so I am not sure waht the purpose of the post is Cathy - why not just unlock it like I did, to use it on Orange?)
im with you Shadamehr. Why bother complaining when its so easy to unlock it anyway. i unlocked mine without problem using the tools available on this website.
...However, there have also been posts from people who have used the download tools and have then experienced problems. I have the ROM version that requires the hard reset and using bootloader mode, or whatever it is. I am not a computer expert, and I have forund from experience that tampering with things that are at present working is not a good plan. It is very time consuming, and I don't feel competent to deal with any problems that arise.
Cathy said:
I have the ROM version that requires the hard reset and using bootloader mode, or whatever it is. I am not a computer expert, and I have forund from experience that tampering with things that are at present working is not a good plan. It is very time consuming, and I don't feel competent to deal with any problems that arise.
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I completely agree with your right and demand to get services in such a case. However, for anyone that does not want to go through the unlock process with the bootloader and hard reset (the 'old' method), I advise you to upgrade. As far as I know all major sellers now provide upgrades. These will also upgrade your radio to version 1.10.x, which is a very much improved radio version. Well worth the upgrade. After that upgrade the simple upgrade tool (the 'new' method) works.
Cathy, I never meant to offend - just to point out the basic premise that on a point of law, you have no legal basis to ask for the unlock code, because to the letter of the law, he had no legal right to even sell you it.
It's a bit hard insisting on an unlock code from the netowrk, for a device that the owner shouldn't even have sold you anyway now is it?
I know we ALL do it QUIETLY, but that doesn't make a whole lot of difference when we need to kick up a fuss and publicise it does it?
But believe me, the Unlock method you refer to, if you have radio stack version 1.05, is REALLY easy enough, and in fact, the LEAST dangerous, in that it isn't actually CHANGING anything unlike the others, as it is only working out what the unlock code is - it doesn't actually unlock it - it only works out the code for you, so it could be argued it's the least intrusive/dangerous.
You then just put another network SIM into the XDA2, so it gives the obvious unathaurised SIM message, and then asks you to enter the unlock code - just exactly the same as if it was supplied by the network.
Failing that, and if you still are unhappy, which I understand, then the new GENUINE, OFFICIAL ROM Upgrade is now available from the O2 UK website.
It's a long process of around an hour all in, but it updates to the latest version whereby you can run a simple unlock tool on the phone to do it all for you.
Hope this is of some use, and if any of us can help more, just ask here...
Thank you...
ahhh, but...
I would contend that although the owner no longer has the phone and has sold it, he is in fact meeting the subsidation requirement by maintaining his contract.
I would also contend or pose the question that what if you broke the phone (by mistake)?
As long as the contract period is still upheld by the original owner, than the provider has no right to hold the unlock code of the now, transferred phone. That's why there are cancellation fees and long-term contracts.
JS
If a locked phone presents a problem for a potential customer then they should, at the outset, request that the phone be unlocked and that your signing the contract depends on this, the reason, if asked, is that you may have to use a 3rd party sim in another country and you dont wish to carry 2 phones, or see why you should.
Re: ahhh, but...
wiredup said:
I would contend that although the owner no longer has the phone and has sold it, he is in fact meeting the subsidation requirement by maintaining his contract.
I would also contend or pose the question that what if you broke the phone (by mistake)?
As long as the contract period is still upheld by the original owner, than the provider has no right to hold the unlock code of the now, transferred phone. That's why there are cancellation fees and long-term contracts.
JS
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Of course there IS mate.
Because under UK law, the network is within the law to with-hold the code to the actual contract holder, never mind the person they re-sold the handset on to. (Save for them charging a 'small' admin fee and supplying you with it IF you pay of the equivalent of the remainder of your contract).
So they are WELL within their rights to do what they are doing.
Let's not forget here, we are talking about heavy subsidisation by the networks towards the original handset.
My XDA2 cost £119. With my contract, that will be still only £360 or even less, all told.
i can't even buy an equivalent Pocket PC itself for that sort of money, never mind something as swanky as an expensive XDA2 that would cost loads more.
This is becuase the network is so heavily subsidising the cost of it.
And yet you expect them just to say "certainly sir/madam, with pleasure" when you ask them for an unlock code part way through your contract?
Er yeah, right.
Put it this way, the day they do, is the day our handsets start costing £400 or even £500 WITH A CONTRACT.
Let's be real folks!
Again, im with u Shadamehr :wink: . The networks have every right to deny you the unlock code as technically it is still their phone until the contract is fully paid as the handset is heavily subsidised. the networks would lose a lot if the phone was unlocked out of the box or they gave the code away before the contract was up. As i said previously, why bother complaining to them when there are tools available on this website for unlocking the phone , pre and post update. it is just a waste of time and energy when u can have the code in less time than it would take to get through to them to explain to them why they should giv u the code. im not a phone techy but i followed the instructions on the pre update tool and it worked without problem giving me the code. i put my old Vodafone SIM in and entered the code the tool gave me. it worked without a problem . they obviously arent giving you the code Cathy, so cheat like the rest of us :wink: .
Re: ahhh, but...
Shadamehr said:
wiredup said:
I would contend that although the owner no longer has the phone and has sold it, he is in fact meeting the subsidation requirement by maintaining his contract.
I would also contend or pose the question that what if you broke the phone (by mistake)?
As long as the contract period is still upheld by the original owner, than the provider has no right to hold the unlock code of the now, transferred phone. That's why there are cancellation fees and long-term contracts.
JS
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Of course there IS mate.
Because under UK law, the network is within the law to with-hold the code to the actual contract holder, never mind the person they re-sold the handset on to. (Save for them charging a 'small' admin fee and supplying you with it IF you pay of the equivalent of the remainder of your contract).
So they are WELL within their rights to do what they are doing.
Let's not forget here, we are talking about heavy subsidisation by the networks towards the original handset.
My XDA2 cost £119. With my contract, that will be still only £360 or even less, all told.
i can't even buy an equivalent Pocket PC itself for that sort of money, never mind something as swanky as an expensive XDA2 that would cost loads more.
This is becuase the network is so heavily subsidising the cost of it.
And yet you expect them just to say "certainly sir/madam, with pleasure" when you ask them for an unlock code part way through your contract?
Er yeah, right.
Put it this way, the day they do, is the day our handsets start costing £400 or even £500 WITH A CONTRACT.
Let's be real folks!
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Shadamehr,
Clearly you do not understand. Let's suppose: As you stated, the phone would normally be 360, but since the network subsidize the phone, they sell it for 199. Fair enough. I know I am responsible for a contract term of 1 year. Done.
I have later sold the phone after just 3 months. I am STILL responsible for the one year contract... still paying back their "subsidation!" So, what the BIG deal whether I still own the phone or not--the contract obligations are still being met!... own the phone or not.
Like I said before, WHAT IF I broke the phone? What's the difference, I am still obligated to continue the contract--phone or no phone! AND, they still get their SUBSIDATION!
Geez... and, it's no different in USA!
Don't be so bloody stupid.
No one ever said it doesn't HAPPEN. Or are you blind?
What I CLEARLY said is that just because it goes on, unspoken, quite regular, doesn't help one little bit when it comes to wanting an unlock code from the network provider within year one.
May I suggest you re-read my post again?
And PLEASE - if you are in the USA, dont make the mistake of assuming that things must automatically be the same.
If you buy a car on H.P. (slightly different, admittedly), then you CANNOT automatically sell that car on in the UK, if you are still paying back the H.P. on it, and to do so can be illegal. That is a simple given fact that most people in the UK know about - so please don't assume for one second that things have to be the same.
If you want to settle this definitively, then feel free to ring OFCOM, and then post your response here for us to share. But I offer you don't need to, as I already posted what the situation is in the UK.
Besides, let me end by saying as LOUD as I can, as you seem to have missed it...
The day that the networks start giving out Unlock codes within the first 12 months, is the day our handsets suddenly cost 100% more money to obtain, even WITH a contract included.
YOU might want that mate...
But us sensible sorts in the rest of the world surely DON'T want to see an average cost increase of at least £100 on an XDA2 for example, just to cover those people who want an unlock code from the start.
There is a method already in existance for getting a phone network free...
It's called BUYING SIM FREE/UNLOCKED. And if you are going to tell me that it costs MUCH MORE to buy it that way, as opposed to on a contract, now why on earth might that be I wonder... now let me think...?
Oh dear me - not because on contract the networks heavily subsidise them by any chance - well there you go - would you look at that!
Sorry for being flippant, but isn't that what I already said in my post, and I now find I am repeating it here...
(And as an EDIT to this post, as I realised it hasn't sufficiently covered your post, let me remind you that one little detail - no matter whether you DO continue to pay your bills in respect of it, as the original owner. UNTIL the subsidisation period is met, even with you still happily paying for a phone you sold, then the networks do not give out the unlock code, and are within their rights under UK law to do so - so your argument has no merit, or productive outcome anyway - it doesn't make a jot of difference to the new owner anyway, until YOU have paid your 12 months - which is also covered in my post).
Shadamehr said:
Don't be so bloody stupid.
No one ever said it doesn't HAPPEN. Or are you blind?
What I CLEARLY said is that just because it goes on, unspoken, quite regular, doesn't help one little bit when it comes to wanting an unlock code from the network provider within year one.
May I suggest you re-read my post again?
And PLEASE - if you are in the USA, dont make the mistake of assuming that things must automatically be the same.
If you buy a car on H.P. (slightly different, admittedly), then you CANNOT automatically sell that car on in the UK, if you are still paying back the H.P. on it, and to do so can be illegal. That is a simple given fact that most people in the UK know about - so please don't assume for one second that things have to be the same.
If you want to settle this definitively, then feel free to ring OFCOM, and then post your response here for us to share. But I offer you don't need to, as I already posted what the situation is in the UK.
Besides, let me end by saying as LOUD as I can, as you seem to have missed it...
The day that the networks start giving out Unlock codes within the first 12 months, is the day our handsets suddenly cost 100% more money to obtain, even WITH a contract included.
YOU might want that mate...
But us sensible sorts in the rest of the world surely DON'T want to see an average cost increase of at least £100 on an XDA2 for example, just to cover those people who want an unlock code from the start.
There is a method already in existance for getting a phone network free...
It's called BUYING SIM FREE/UNLOCKED. And if you are going to tell me that it costs MUCH MORE to buy it that way, as opposed to on a contract, now why on earth might that be I wonder... now let me think...?
Oh dear me - not because on contract the networks heavily subsidise them by any chance - well there you go - would you look at that!
Sorry for being flippant, but isn't that what I already said in my post, and I now find I am repeating it here...
(And as an EDIT to this post, as I realised it hasn't sufficiently covered your post, let me remind you that one little detail - no matter whether you DO continue to pay your bills in respect of it, as the original owner. UNTIL the subsidisation period is met, even with you still happily paying for a phone you sold, then the networks do not give out the unlock code, and are within their rights under UK law to do so - so your argument has no merit, or productive outcome anyway - it doesn't make a jot of difference to the new owner anyway, until YOU have paid your 12 months - which is also covered in my post).
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The debate was a discussion of whether network should indeed allow unlock codes to be made available before the contract term--of which I replied.
My comments addressed your arrogant, definitive statements surrounding why carriers do not release unlock codes. That is, and what you believe to be, a dependency between contracts and subsidation. However, my opinion was simply the two are mutually exclusive.
Law is the law. While you might prefer subsidation and being locked into a carrier, others may prefer the contractless freedom--of which, some are available.
In addition, I think your condescending, rude and utterly poor communication skills are of an entirely new thread. I suggest a filter between your brain and keyboard as clearly your intuition to write without consideration is overwhelmingly powerful.
It is simply a discussion.
Best regards,
JS
Mmm - I've spent seven years as a die hard internet user, from forums, to newsgroups, to chat rooms and all in between.
I learned a LONG time ago, that the rudest, most arrogant and obnoxious posters are never the brainless ones, but rather, just like you so emphatically prove, the ones that try and hide their attacks behind smooth words, and flowing language.
Consequently, I'll grant you one thing mate... You probably the rudest and most offensive to post to me, in a wee while.
Another thing I learned a long time ago, is not to bother arguing.
I will simply say, the post, the entire thread, is there for all to see, and more importantly, all to judge as they see fit.
Whilst I have no reservation in saying this thread is indeed one of my more flippant posts, compared to the help I try and chip in with round here, I have no suspicions whatsoever that I will be the one judged to be the perpertrator round here - after all, I merely pointed things out. Its not MY fault that you don't LIKE what I had to report. Hey, I never even said that I LIKED it either - I'm merely messenger, pointing out a few home truths.
And not letting you get away with it that easily, I would just remind you that once again, if people DO wish to prevail themselves of a handset that is NOT network locked, the facility already exists for them to do so, and its called BUYING SIM FREE.
Or did you miss that yet again.
Making it as clear as possible for you, in case you haven't worked out yet that I have NO reason to defend the networks per se, nevertheless mate, if a Network heavily subsidises a handset, provided you agree to stick with them 12 months, not tariff change until after 4 (or 6) months, and not get an unlock code until after the twelve months, then it couldn't be simpler mate...
You either take it, or you leave it.
But if you go into it with open eyes, as you surely should, then you have no right, or place, or reason, to later post in here that you think its unfair that the network won't give you an unlock code in the first twelve months.
If you don't like that idea, you DON'T take out the contract mate.
ITS THAT SIMPLE.
And if you want to, you can then buy a SIM FREE handset.
But please, don't complain about the cost being too high then. Of course it is - that is the REAL price.
The price you are used to, on contract, is a heavily subsidised one, available to you provided you AGREE to certain conditions etc.
Note that word "agree". Because it means that once you accept it, then there is little point or purpose to whingeing on later, about something that you, as a consumer, of your own volition and free will, AGREED to.
Now please, my Email address should be in my profile.
If you want to flame me or troll me anymore - by all means do so by Email, and keep your incesant ramblings OFF this board.
Like I said - both our comments are there for all to see.
More importantly, they are there for others to judge.
I'm more than happy to let the members judge me.
I trust you are the same.
Now leave it please. (Or rather, troll and flame me as much as you feel the need to, but use my email in future instead of boring everyone else in this forum).
Shadamehr said:
Mmm - I've spent seven years as a die hard internet user, from forums, to newsgroups, to chat rooms and all in between.
I learned a LONG time ago, that the rudest, most arrogant and obnoxious posters are never the brainless ones, but rather, just like you so emphatically prove, the ones that try and hide their attacks behind smooth words, and flowing language.
Consequently, I'll grant you one thing mate... You probably the rudest and most offensive to post to me, in a wee while.
Another thing I learned a long time ago, is not to bother arguing.
I will simply say, the post, the entire thread, is there for all to see, and more importantly, all to judge as they see fit.
Whilst I have no reservation in saying this thread is indeed one of my more flippant posts, compared to the help I try and chip in with round here, I have no suspicions whatsoever that I will be the one judged to be the perpertrator round here - after all, I merely pointed things out. Its not MY fault that you don't LIKE what I had to report. Hey, I never even said that I LIKED it either - I'm merely messenger, pointing out a few home truths.
And not letting you get away with it that easily, I would just remind you that once again, if people DO wish to prevail themselves of a handset that is NOT network locked, the facility already exists for them to do so, and its called BUYING SIM FREE.
Or did you miss that yet again.
Making it as clear as possible for you, in case you haven't worked out yet that I have NO reason to defend the networks per se, nevertheless mate, if a Network heavily subsidises a handset, provided you agree to stick with them 12 months, not tariff change until after 4 (or 6) months, and not get an unlock code until after the twelve months, then it couldn't be simpler mate...
You either take it, or you leave it.
But if you go into it with open eyes, as you surely should, then you have no right, or place, or reason, to later post in here that you think its unfair that the network won't give you an unlock code in the first twelve months.
If you don't like that idea, you DON'T take out the contract mate.
ITS THAT SIMPLE.
And if you want to, you can then buy a SIM FREE handset.
But please, don't complain about the cost being too high then. Of course it is - that is the REAL price.
The price you are used to, on contract, is a heavily subsidised one, available to you provided you AGREE to certain conditions etc.
Note that word "agree". Because it means that once you accept it, then there is little point or purpose to whingeing on later, about something that you, as a consumer, of your own volition and free will, AGREED to.
Now please, my Email address should be in my profile.
If you want to flame me or troll me anymore - by all means do so by Email, and keep your incesant ramblings OFF this board.
Like I said - both our comments are there for all to see.
More importantly, they are there for others to judge.
I'm more than happy to let the members judge me.
I trust you are the same.
Now leave it please. (Or rather, troll and flame me as much as you feel the need to, but use my email in future instead of boring everyone else in this forum).
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Mr. Shadamehr,
Please don't patronize me with your comments like, "If you want to flame me or troll me anymore - by all means do so by Email, and keep your incesant ramblings OFF this board." If you review your postings above, it is your posts that "ramble" (i.e. are the longest!)
Last time I checked, freedom of speech is well within the bounds of this board. Your decisive statements, most of which are opinion-driven, are your position only. I'm not sure anyone complained of the cost of the PDA's--if you review the posts, no one actually did. I have plenty of income, so cost isn't an issue for me... so, why would you assume it does?
And, may I say, that this conversation will last as long as it needs to; again, isn't freedom awesome?
All I'm saying is: we agree law is the law. The debate lies in whether it is fair or not (personal opinions); as consumers, we have the ability to persuade the industry.
I'll refrain from the "are you STUPID mate?," "Or did you miss that yet again" statements as they are useless, condescending remarks that provide no value to the debate.
At what point do you believe you're more intelligent than the rest of us?
JS
Freedom of speech is indeed a truly wonderful thing.
But YOU were the one that said:
"In addition, I think your condescending, rude and utterly poor communication skills are of an entirely new thread."
Implying this should be kept well off the board, or at least, THIS thread!
But NOW you are saying:
"And, may I say, that this conversation will last as long as it needs to; again, isn't freedom awesome? "
I'm sorry, there's not a lot I or anyone else can do to help you, if you yourself are unsure as to what you want, and change your mind to suit, as and when you feel like it.
This whole thread was about Networks with-holding the Unlock code within the first twelve months.
I have just CHECKED again, and my first post on this topic, was an indication of the current position, based on my OWN issues I had, just like Cathy, and what OFTEL (as it was then), informed me was the law, and the issues around it.
I posted that information here, and as such, was only the messenger for what I am all too aware is unpopular knowledge. Nevertheless, I was nothing more than messenger.
Because that information was not popular reading however, you took it on board to somewhat hold me to blame, or at very least to turn the argument around onto me.
Suit yourself.
I end, after having demonstrated how you blow hot and cold in the same debate (a frightening quality indeed), simply by referring the Learned Gentleman to my last post, where I said:
"The members, ultimately will decide who they feel is right, and who is in the wrong..." (or similar)...
And in that respect nothing has changed.
Now, finally, you DID originally say you wanted this kept off the board, so I implore you to do so now.
But of course, you being you, you later contradicted yourself by then saying you will keep this going as long as you want, so I doubt you will leave it now.
Funny how you change your mind to suit yourself best.
But give the matter thought, because I really can't be bothered. You see:
"I learned a long time ago never to argue overly long with fools. All they ever do is bring you down to THEIR level, and of course once they manage that, they then go on to beat you with their vast experience over you they have in that role..."
And in an effort to reach closure, can I make something clear where your WHOLE debate is wrong...?
You say:
"All I'm saying is: we agree law is the law. The debate lies in whether it is fair or not (personal opinions); as consumers, we have the ability to persuade the industry."
Forgive me for completely correcting you...
This is Cathy's post.
And she called it:
"Are O2 acting legally in with-holding the unlock code"
Clear as day, a question on whether the issue was legallly correct or not. Nothing at all, as you seek to save grace by now implying, about the relative morals of it. I can't even see where that aspect creeps in other than your OWN posts.
And my response, pointing out the LEGAL position, was thus therefore a completely correct, and completely appropriate response to her thread.
You are therefore completely incorrect in saying this is a thread about the MORALS of it - it was a CLEAR question on the LEGALITIES of it.
If you wish to have a moral debate about the relative rights or wrongs of the netoworks doing this, then I would be HAPPY to join you in such a debate.
But as this would be a NEW aspect, then I would expect an apology from you (which there is no chance I will get), for you completely having wrongly judged me, by saying this debate was already one about morals.
It isn't - please read Cathy's title again.
My response to her, that you so deride and find worthy of argument, was thus totally appropriate - she asked if O2 were acting LEGALLY (it's in the title).
I replied explaining that they were - from my own experinces with OFTEL.
I trust, and I mean this fairly and not conflictory, that you now realise that I had done noting wrong. This was NOT a debate, as you so keep saying, about the MORALS of it.
That post would be entitled:
"Are O2 acting immorally or unreasonably by with-holding the unlock code"
And in that post, your comments would be far more correct then, and appropriate, and I couldn't fault them half as much.
But, er, this is NOT that thread though.
This is the "Are O2 acting LEGALLY..." one.
Sorry for keep repeating it.
Well, that gave me a laugh during lunch time....
will this ever happen!!!!!!!!!
well considering that the imei is the identifier for a mobile phone i dont think you will ever get to change it, and if you could, why would you want to?, the only reason someone would want to change an imei on a mobile is if its a stolen mobile and that person wanted to change the identifier *imei* so as not to get caught...
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think it ever will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
never say never. i guess the imei is just a few bits on an unknown adress in one of these flash memory chips inside. what i am trying to say: the imei is nothing hard coded in the device, it is programmable. for mobile phones there are a lot of hacking tools for changing the imei e.g. of nokia phones, philips, sagem etc.
but i agree: what would be the sense of changing imei? covering a stolen phone from being identified and possibly tracked?
greetings
peter
There are legitimate reasons for wanting to change one's IMEI. For instance: if I were to use pepaid cards for multiple identities which I wish to remain separate towards the state, then I must use many phones, or change IMEI. And if you think resisting the eyes of a state is somehow evil, then please consider not all nation states are equally friendly at any given time. Union organizers and human rights activists in many countries stand to lose if we only associate their technical needs with crime and terrorism.
Excellent point of view Peter!
So I wonder which Nas is: Union organiser or human rights activist?
IMHO, changing IMEI number is something that will help more criminals than secretive activists, and it shouldn't be encouraged. Of course, just MHO.
Ha Neither!
But what are the chances that a simple minded phone thief will actually have the intelligence to join a form and ask, die hard users if they could unlock the phone he has stolen from probably another die hard user.
We all have our reasons, and it makes me smile, when every time there is a chat about changing this or that on a product that people assume the worth or blindly give their assumptions on the reasons!
I remember back in the early 90s when people like myself were hacking the Amiga games and putting them in the public forum, it was the same thickle minded people that said we were all gangsters raising money to have drug parties in Europe.
The reason i wanted to unlock my IMEI is simple, the prices in the UK are far too high, so on a trip to Singapore i brought one, boxed receipt ect!
It worked fine out there an no matter what i do with it here its not working, so i have flushed it, and changed various settings and unlocked it but it has never worked as a phone.
This is just another throw of the dice.
So will all the people thinking im a freaking mugger or two bit crim, please stay away when the grown folks are talking!!!!!!
Nas said:
But what are the chances that a simple minded phone thief will actually have the intelligence to join a form and ask, die hard users if they could unlock the phone he has stolen from probably another die hard user.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The organised gangs of criminals who deal in stolen handsets are very cunning, and far from simple minded. The petty criminal who snatches a phone may well not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but he isn't the one who does the real business and makes all the profit.
Right now I would say that a fixed IMEI number is the best deterrent we have against large-scale phone crime, and I'd be happy to keep it that way.
Agreed the big fish are very smart, however the smartest thing to do with a stolen hand set is simply take it out of the country it was stolen in.
Why go through the need of replacing IMEI numbers and possibly bringing attention to yourself in chat rooms, when you can get on a plane and sell the phone as perfectly working.
these gangs make big money, and i agree any method stopping them doing what they do, especially in light of the recent killing in the UK is a good thing.
What gets me is when, guys like me ask a question, for a valid reason and a chat room full of people that most probably all hack for fun, turn around not even question but put foward opinions on my motives, and liken me to a mugger!
Did you buy the phone brand new in Singapore? I cant think of any reason for the phone not to work here unless it was previously blocked here in UK and found its way out east. Have you tried different sims from different providers? What do you hear/see when you try to place a call?
Nas said:
Ha Neither!
But what are the chances that a simple minded phone thief will actually have the intelligence to join a form and ask, die hard users if they could unlock the phone he has stolen from probably another die hard user.
We all have our reasons, and it makes me smile, when every time there is a chat about changing this or that on a product that people assume the worth or blindly give their assumptions on the reasons!
I remember back in the early 90s when people like myself were hacking the Amiga games and putting them in the public forum, it was the same thickle minded people that said we were all gangsters raising money to have drug parties in Europe.
The reason i wanted to unlock my IMEI is simple, the prices in the UK are far too high, so on a trip to Singapore i brought one, boxed receipt ect!
It worked fine out there an no matter what i do with it here its not working, so i have flushed it, and changed various settings and unlocked it but it has never worked as a phone.
This is just another throw of the dice.
So will all the people thinking im a freaking mugger or two bit crim, please stay away when the grown folks are talking!!!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nas said:
will this ever happen!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It happened a long time ago. This forum is not the right place to search for.
I can sell you IMEI resetting tool which works fine for both XDAs. It doesn't change your IMEI to desired one, but replaces your number with 0000-s.
Get your resetting tool today only for 99,99$! PM me anyway!
-if you want to be anonymous, you are using a prepaid card
-but, with an imsi catcher anyone (who does own such a device) can listen to your calls
-the guy behind the catcher does some filtering regarding the sim-number "guess" - and also the imei of your device
-so your are "transparent" with your prepayd-cards and also your imei.
-card changing is not that big problem, but doing this with new phones every 2 weeks or so is not fine.
-this cardf/imei changing does not regard only illegal activitys/criminals.
-imsi catcers are not only used by police, etc. - also from criminals, so it is an useable part of keeping your secrets (think about an top manager, ....)
if anyone is interested:
a imsi-catcher does nothing as simulating an gsm-Cell - doing some forwarding to the real network.
but:
the imsi-catcher doe have more tx-power, as other cells in the area, so the phone connects to the catcher.
the imsi-catcher uses not encrypted communication witch the phone, so the calls can be logged without any problems. (i only know the siemes S4 (S10to?), telling you, if the communication is not encrypted)
sorry for my bad english
It will be changed if you change your mazard board,,,,,,
Hello,
I am interested in sponsoring the development of a free HTC IMEI Restore Tool. For this purpose, I have posted a project here:
http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/BidRequests/ShowBidRequest.asp?lngBidRequestId=507960
If you have interest in this work, and have the time and skills to complete this project, and accept to make the results of your efforts available for free:
I WILL PAY YOU FOR YOUR TIME.
Please post a bid at the above site, explaining your qualifications. The minimum bid starts at $100, and naturally, bids can go a lot higher. I am willing to pay up to $1,500 for a tool of this capacity. Naturally if there are multiple bids, I will choose the lowest bid.
I will publish the resulting source code of this project under GNU/GPL, so others will benefit from your work also.
Why am I doing this?
1) About 3,000 Turkish HTC users have been greatly inconvenienced by the abrupt deactivation of their phones based on the IMEI
2) No free solutions appear to be available for HTC users
3) The quality of service for commercial solutions leaves a lot to be desired
What guarantees do you have that you will get paid?
1) The project the site is posted on is an escrow site
2) When I accept your bid, I will pay the site in advance - before you even start the project
3) Once the site confirms that the funds are in escrow, you begin work
4) You get paid when I confirm that your solution works
5) The site acts as a neutral arbitrer to resolve all disputes
For more information: www.rentacoder.com
Why will I share the results of your work for free?
1) I don't want people to think this is a commercial venture
2) I have no intention to compete in this "phone unlocking" market
3) I just want my phone restored, and FAST! I have no further interest
GPLing your efforts guarantees that other people can benefit from your work after this project (and my interest) expires; it also guarantees that nobody can take your source code [or a version of it] and charge for it.
There are legal issues with such program. It would use code obtained by reverse engeneering of radio part, and GPL license is absolutely incompatible with such code.
I would personally refuse to join such program, though I know the process of changing IMEI in Universal and some other devices.
And more. You'll need to give the author one device of each of device types you'll need to unlock. And this would cost you much more than 1500$.
Then we'll devise a variant of GNU/GPL which is compatible with the goal of this project: making this tool free for everyone, and the source code available.
Somebody who already has HTC devices can realize the software, and subsequently can pocket the entire cash.
mimarsinan said:
3) The quality of service for commercial solutions leaves a lot to be desired
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried on the dedicated support websites for the commercial solution(s)?
Thought not. So stop spamming this forum please - one thread of your begging is enough.
Richard
Richard you really are blabbing and actually it is you spamming. None of your posts help anyone and you're just being a "smarty" to other people.
Stop telling people what to do eh? he is trying to help people here. if you don't like it, you don't read his posts. thats it .
or do you think that your "stars" make you a more "reputable" person?... sheeeeshh....
Guys, although I'm surprised that there needs to be more then 1 thread on this by mimarsinan, I think that the idea is great... let's just let it pan out.
fluffcat1: I know your concerns, and it's obviously your posts and the other threads that have pushed mimarsinan to this idea, but again, it can't do any harm to see if the $$$ will flush out a solution. It worked for getting XP running on the Macs
mimarsinan: you would be wise to pay close attention to what Mamaich says. Any solution to this problem is highly illegal for most of us to release, regardless of your jurisdiction.
I suggest that making it closed source but free may assist you in getting a solution, but this might not be what you're after. But again, all respect to you for showing that you're serious about getting the solution.
V
Thanks, people.
My intent in making this open source was two-fold:
1) To demonstrate that I am not interested in making profit or entering the "phone hacking" market as a competitor,
2) To make sure that the source code built (or flushed) using the cash incentive goes back to the community and encourages further development.
If legal issues are a concern, as long as we have a free working solution, we may be able to drop the open source clause. We are free to negotiate all of this, guys and gals - so don't hold back on your bids.
Also, this would be work-for-hire, so the employer would have all rights to the furnished source code (non-exclusively if you wish), but the point is, the employee will be free from any sort of litigation, because this is work-for-hire. The employer would be solely responsible for the work performed, not the employee.
Bottom Line: This wouldn't get you into trouble, although it might get me. And this doesn't have to be published on your site if you're not comfortable, but I will assume the risk and publish it on my own site.
moriteri said:
Richard you really are blabbing and actually it is you spamming. None of your posts help anyone and you're just being a "smarty" to other people.
Stop telling people what to do eh? he is trying to help people here. if you don't like it, you don't read his posts. thats it .
or do you think that your "stars" make you a more "reputable" person?... sheeeeshh....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1 Thread IS ENOUGH.
SPAM is SPAM. Replying to a thread is not spam. I am not telling anyone to do anything other than asking to avoid multiple cross posts and threads about the same topic which is SPAM.
The stars are how much I donate to xda-developers. Read my posts to see the help I have given and check my ebay feedback to see I am a 'reputable person'.
I'm glad you've reads all my previous posts before deciding I am unhelpful BTW. Mr I've-posted-five-times....
mimarsinan said:
Make your bid today - get paid for helping people, get paid for doing the work you love, get paid for advancing the state of freely available tools.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Get paid NOWHERE NEAR what you will get fined for breaking the law in whatever country you live in....
Get paid VERY LITTLE whilst you are locked up for 3 years in prison washing shirts / stampling out licence plates etc etc.
IMEI manipulation, in the UK at least, carries a 3yr prison sentence and £10,000 fine.
Richard
Do we have any people who would like to ask questions on this project before making a bid?
Please let me know if you have any questions!
Richard,
You make it sound like I'm trying to lure people into this project so I can throw them into jail. Do you really believe that yourself?
If you're so concerned about the legalities, how come your buddy Raskal isn't in jail? Plus, he is SELLING his product, he is making a profit out of changing IMEI numbers. We won't be doing this for profit. If Raskal isn't in jail, there's simply no way we'll go to jail.
How about removing SIM locks? Do you think that's legal? I don't see you spamming other people's posts about SIM locks...don't be a hypocrite.
You must be having some kind of commercial interest to protect - there is no other way I can make sense of your extremely offensive, rude posts.
About your reputation...some people seem to think of you as a crook:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=53815&highlight=fluffcat+crook
(may want to cover your back before you go out lashing at others next time)
Whatever reason you're against this free imei restore project I don't know - nor do I care. If you're not interested, the sensible thing is to walk away. If you really think you're going to jail for this - just walk away. Let us get the job done in peace.
If you're still coming back, then you're giving everybody plenty of reasons to brainstorm about your ulterior motives.
'Given my history'? What a knob you are! Anyone in sales is bound to have people *****ing, and the only problems I have are with items that go abroad....hmmm, funny that.
http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=fluffcat1&ssPageName=STRK:ME:UFS
There's my ebay reputation - unique feedback - 1895, total positive - 2455, negative - 8.
Eight negative. Out of 2455. Makes me a crook does it? Winker.
You're the one making yourself look petty bringing up other threads you have no knowledge about and mentioning reputations - I have tried to help those people who have thrown it back at me so screw 'em - and it has no bearing on my comments on your actions in this thread despite you thinking it affects my 'reputation' - how can my fair comment 'hurts me even more.'? . How very pathetic of you.
You are the one who has made it personal, attacking both Raskal and I with no basis other than that he will not subvert his distribution process and cut out his middlemen just for you because you ewant him to, or write a special application just for you, and that I do not agree with you. It's no surprise no one wants to help you. This project is doomed frankly.
I have bought 1 jafWM from a UK reseller. I have had 2 email corresspondance with Raskal when the unlocking was first launched for jafWM ( it didn't do it out of the box) and I know a little of the unlocking industry and how it works.
jafWM is not aimed at 'hobbyist' phone unlockers or those who want to use it once or twice - it is a solution designed to make phone flashing ( and now unlocking) quick and painless for those not used to flashing HTC devices i.e market stall unlockers etc, and compared to some other devices it is relatively inexpensive. It is cheap as the device out of the box will not do anything other than flash files overriding CID, unlcoking needs a server credit at a cost of €25 IIRC.
If you wanted to flash your Nokia, would you pay € 500 for a furious box that could also change the IMEI? No. You'd get someone else with the box to do it...
Raskal actively promotes the free solutions for one-off unlocking use, and supports this site, but jafWM is desgned to save time and make flashing easier without reg edits etc to save time FOR THE PROFESSIONAL.
I have nothing to do with Raskal and no revenue to protect as you claim, I am merely stating my opinion to counter your ridiculus posts slagging him and other 'commercial' solutions.
IMEI manipulation is illlegal in most European countries. Raskal is not in a european country. The fact his device can do this does not render having it illegal. Using it to manipulate IMEI's is illegal, possession is not. It's his risk to develop the tool, but as all the other products he makes and sells for 'normal' phones can manipulate 'corrupt' IMEI's ( a handy euphemism) he obviously doesn't care as no-one has bothered him yet.
You say removing sim locks is illegal - IT ISN'T - it is perfectly legal and absolutley nothing to do with IMEI changing. You're just showing your lack of understanding of what you are talking about.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/20020031.htm
"1 Re-programming mobile telephone etc.
(1) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he changes a unique device identifier, or
(b) he interferes with the operation of a unique device identifier.
(2) A unique device identifier is an electronic equipment identifier which is unique to a mobile wireless communications device.
(3) But a person does not commit an offence under this section if-
(a) he is the manufacturer of the device, or
(b) he does the act mentioned in subsection (1) with the written consent of the manufacturer of the device.
(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable-
(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to a fine or to both.
2 Possession or supply of anything for re-programming purposes
(1) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he has in his custody or under his control anything which may be used for the purpose of changing or interfering with the operation of a unique device identifier, and
(b) he intends to use the thing unlawfully for that purpose or to allow it to be used unlawfully for that purpose.
(2) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he supplies anything which may be used for the purpose of changing or interfering with the operation of a unique device identifier, and
(b) he knows or believes that the person to whom the thing is supplied intends to use it unlawfully for that purpose or to allow it to be used unlawfully for that purpose.
(3) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he offers to supply anything which may be used for the purpose of changing or interfering with the operation of a unique device identifier, and
(b) he knows or believes that the person to whom the thing is offered intends if it is supplied to him to use it unlawfully for that purpose or to allow it to be used unlawfully for that purpose.
(4) A unique device identifier is an electronic equipment identifier which is unique to a mobile wireless communications device.
(5) A thing is used by a person unlawfully for a purpose if in using it for that purpose he commits an offence under section 1.
(6) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable-
(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to a fine or to both. "
Changing the IMEI to disguise the origin of a phone is illegal in the UK and most other european countries that I have looked into.
Your developers should go into this with their eyes open - they are producing a tool to commit an offence which has severe penalities in this country and others to deter mobile phone theft. If they can in any way be traced by IP / bank account / registration etc then they should be wary.
How do they know you aren't just bait from law enforcement to get the underground hackers prosecuted? Look how many posts you have made - most are begging for a software IMEI changer - there are already free software unlockers for the wizard.
p.s when I bought jafWM it couldn't unlock phones or 'repair' IMEIs so as I haven't updated my software I am not committing any offence, and it is not jafWM's primary purpose although it is sure to drive sales ;-)
Richard
mimarsinan,
you are doing something wrong. turkish government came to a desicion to block the unrecorded imei numbered phones to stop phone theft making them impossible to operate again in the local phone networks. The phone owner can go to the police to report their phones as stolen and most commonly that the phones are in fact found. while doing this imei blocking, they have blocked the smuggled illegal phones too. But as they did that, they have said that they for one time record those smuggled phones to the system for a small fee like 3 dollars or so. when you buy a phone abroad, you can also register it with the system. You just have to take your phones original bill to the customs officer when entering your country turkey and make them stamp that bill for a small fee. Then taking this legal document to the TK or to your phoen operator, they record your phone to the system free of charge.
please stop this imei change stuff immediately...
If project will is organized that
everal methods of protection from illegal use the program.
1)webserver <->local client
2)only one change imei and keeping this in base webserver
3)in the event of request of the police bodies possible to find number which was assigned or publiс base
4)restriction for time of the functioning(working) the project -not more 1 month
5)restrictions in use IP address -for turkish only
I think this illegal change IMEI
SubZero,
When you go shopping abroad and buy a shoe or a shirt, do you keep its invoice? No...
...but the government needs to see my imate invoice to activate my phone.
Apparently there was a grace period while I was abroad where you could take your phone to a "dealer" and have it registered for a small fee. I never heard about this, and I never was able to take advantage of this.
The government is putting the burden on the consumer, instead of properly identifying and prosecuting the real people who are illegally smuggling thousands and thousands of cell phones with cloned IMEIs.
What happened to all those smugglers? They paid the small fee and got the job done. They won again.
What happened to people who legitimately bought their cell phones abroad? They lost.
That seem right to you buddy?
mimarsinan said:
SubZero,
When you go shopping abroad and buy a shoe or a shirt, do you keep its invoice? No...
...but the government needs to see my imate invoice to activate my phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A shoe or a shirt is unlikely to need an invoice for a warranty claim becuase the digitiser won't work or the signal is weak....
And yes, I-mate's warranties are honoured worldwide so long as you have the original invoice as pointed out in their July newsletter.
So have you thrown away your invoice and lost your warranty? ooops...
Most people keep the invoice for expensive purchases like that.
Richard
imate support in Turkey, that's a good one!
mimarsinan said:
imate support in Turkey, that's a good one!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why's that a 'good one'? There are more service centres for imate in Turkey than in the UK! Do these places not exist then? Is it a big i-mate joke? Or are you just annoyed you lost you invoice and so lost your warranty?.... :roll:
http://www.clubimate.com/t-SERVICE_TUR.aspx
Turkey
KVK Service Centers
(For Manufacturer Warranties)
K.V.K. Teknik Servis Adana
Fuzuli Cad. Galleria Is Merkezi
No: 451 - 454
Seyhan, Adana 01120
Tel: +90 (322) 459-3074
Fax: +90 (322) 459-3075
K.V.K. Teknik Servis Ankara
Ziya Gokalp Cd. No:21
064204 Kizilay/ANKARA
Tel: +90 (312) 430-4343
Fax: +90 (312) 430-4344
K.V.K. Teknik Servis Antalya
Kizilsaray Mah. Yener Ulusoy Bulv.
Habaci Apt. No: 23 / B
Antalya 07020
Tel: (242) 243-2828
Fax: (242) 243-7260
K.V.K. Teknik Servis Bursa
Sakarya Mah. Uluyol Cad.
No: 63/A
Osmangazi, Bursa
Tel: +90 (224) 250-0040
Fax: +90 (224) 250-0042
K.V.K. Teknik Servis Istanbul / Kozyatagi Bireysel
Bayar Cad. Riza Cemberci Is Mrk.
No: 72 / 3-4
Kozyatagi, ?stanbul 34742
Tel: +90 (216) 445-5959
Fax: +90 (216) 445-5960
K.V.K. Teknik Servis Istanbul / Kozyatagi Kurumsal
Bayar Cad. Gulbahar Sok.
Ege Yildiz Sit. No: 15 / 36 - 37
Kozyatagi, Istanbul 34742
Tel: +90 (216) 372-5035
Fax: +90 (216) 372-4908
K.V.K. Teknik Servis Istanbul / Bakirkoy
Zuhuratbaba Mah.
Zuhuratbaba Cad. No: 7
Tel: +90 (212) 660-5959
Fax: +90 (212) 660-5960
K.V.K. Teknik Servis Izmir
Sair Esref Bulvari
No: 6 / D
Cankaya, Izmir
Tel: +90 (232) 489-5959
Fax: +90 (232) 446-8679
K.V.K. Teknik Servis Trabzon
Cumhuriyet Mah. Nemlioglu Cemal Sok.
(Trabzon Sehir Klubu araligi)
Ziya bey Sitesi A-Blok No: 16/1
Trabzon
Tel: +90 (462) 321-0321
Fax: +90 (462) 322-3696
K.V.K. Teknik Servis Erzurum
Karakose Mah. Cennet Cesme Sok.
Lalapasa Is Merkezi No:7
Yakutiye, Erzurum
Tel: +90 (442) 234-3553
Fax: +90 (442) 234-9355
You're doing a lot of research for us for free here, Richard?
Hate to disappoint you, but K.V.K. does not import or provide support for imate phones in Turkey. I was at their Ankara office two months ago and they didn't carry (or import) a simple battery pack for my k-jam!
In fact, they were pretty clueless when I showed them the phone and the battery pack I was looking for; they had never seen it before and they did not carry that manufacturers (imate) equipment.
Nice try though!
head to www.pdaden.com for a spare battery pack.
did you really purchase your i-mate from KVK? If not, they do have the right for not replacing your battery..
I've already ordered and received my battery pack, and also a 2 GB mini SD card, from an overseas supplier. I just went to KVK to order first, upon hearing that they "imported" imates into Turkey.
Like I said, they had no clue what I was talking about, and said they did not carry that phone model, that they did not import imates into Turkey.
Of course I did not purchase my imate from KVK either :lol: