Related
Hi all,
First of all allow me to personally apologize for the state that this has been in for too long now. Even with the little time I had, I could have done more. I guess have a problem motivating myself if I know I cannot make something perfect.
Secondly, I have the pleasure of announcing a long-needed and overdue hardware upgrade which happened today and which should have made things much faster for everyone. I certainly notice a dramatic speed increase. More and faster processors are a Good Thing (tm).
Thirdly, and probably most importantly: Since I was so frustrated with being so time-constrained that I was not able to deliver perfection, I have taken the liberty to silently hire someone else to take care of the site full-time. Flar (username "Flar") had her first day at work today. I've had the opportunity to work with her on previous occasions, and I can tell you that she is one capable professional young woman. She'll need a little time to get rolling, but she and I will soon be managing the migration the system to yet better hardware, switching from phpBB to vBulletin, creating a new structure, cleaning up the ftp site and migrating the wiki to Mediawiki. She will then take care of daily moderation of the forums and all the other daily and weekly tasks that go with properly maintaining this site.
Fourthly, we will in future have ads. I don't like ads much, but there's simply no way around it if we want to make this thing rock again. We get quite a bit of money in donations. (Thank You! You pulled us through even when we did not deserve it...). But even if donations were to increase significantly after the upcoming improvements, they will still never pay for the combined costs of hardware, colo, bandwidth and Flar's salary. We will (ofcourse) make sure the ads are never of the in-your-face, moving-over-the-content, audio-at-full-volume kind, and we will most certainly not dare to have ads until the rest of the house is much, much, much more in order than it is now.
For now, feel free to fantasize about what XDA-developers could be, since we will now have both the machine-power and woman-power to do something with these ideas.
Peter Poelman
(who is looking forward to spending some more time with y'all soon)
Thanks for the post, keeping us updated - it is very highly appreciated
I can understand what you mean with finding it hard to get motivated when you know you can't reach the level of perfection that you'd like, so thanks for keeping up the good work anyway
Peter Poelman said:
(who is looking forward to spending some more time with y'all soon)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks Peter for the system update - we all look forward to seeing you and your expertise
Was wondering why I couldn't log on earlier... This is great now! Thanks Peter!
one word : THANKS
Thank you very much Peter :lol:
This really *is* fast now, thanks a lot!
much quicker now !
Thanks
Its a lot quicker, and I don't mind Google ads if you wanna use them I know how painful it is to run a site with no money!
btw, it seems that the database, which had some hickups before, now can't stand the speed of the site. I get frequent phpBB messages about failed DB connections. It only gets annoying when you press the submit button after writing a lot of text
Much faster now and looking forward to the future developments. I'm fairly new but have found this site really valuable and users are very helpful. And welcome to Flar
Why don't you set upa a shop to help keeping up with the costs? You could sell accessories like BT headsets, MMC/SD/memory sticks, extended batteries etc. and of course HTC phones.
I think the people here would prefer to buy at shop.xda-developers.com than anywhere else, especially knowing that it will help to offset the website's costs.
XDA Shop
I most definately agree. I would buy all my stuff from the xda site!!!!
I think I'm starting to get a little moist!
Good job! 8)
I love this site! My wife reckons that i should have married it instead of her (i spend alittle too much time on my laptop).
Welcome to Flar hope you enjoy us :lol:
Last thing i agree if you set up shop where we could all go and buy a good lil tiddley bits i would do my shopping here.
But ads are ok and i guess both would be even better from the site's point of view!
Good luck and thanks for the fantastic site!
Great news!
The site is indeed much faster to load
Don't apologize about the ads, try to get as much money as you can to make this site even better
Welcome onboard, Flar
Thanks and great job, Peter
Hi.
Just wanted to say that I personally wouldn't mind a few adds if I know they help to improve and maintain the site. I am sure others will agree.
I am also glad to hear about the upcoming improvements, but a bit worried about switching the system type.
Hope you wouldn't accidentally loose anything from the database or the users listing in the process.
Any way,
Good luck!
This is a great site.
thanks, it's a lot faster now
this is a great resource site and even though i don't like ads, i completely understand the need for them
****Last Day*****
Since money motivates some I'm starting a pledge thread for the DEV who roots an OTA stock version of Froyo on the EVO. For folks who are going to pledge here, please be serious and adhere to giving in the dollar or euro amount you are pledging. Understand these folks are doing this stuff on their free-time and with the money being offered we are hoping it will put a little more focus on getting this initiative completed sooner rather then later.
At minimum I am hoping for:
hboot.93 hack
Root Stock OTA Froyo 2.2 with Super User
Wifi Tether working
Everything else can stay the same in the ROM.
Once a Developer produces such an image with install instructions and is verified working, then those who pledge will insert funds to to the developer's Paypal account within 24 hours. Should be pretty simple. Again if you pledge, be a man or woman or your word and give this person what they earned.
I'm STARTING out with my pledge of $50 U.S. Dollars. Good luck!
**** Based on a Suggestion Going to include a deadline of 8/20 for the project to be completed to be eligible for the funds ***
Finally should a DEVELOPER decide they don't want the money, whatever is pledged here will be given to the XDA website donation link. And Please keep this to pledge donation amount replies.
(To admin, please make a sticky if possible)
Well it was a good attempt. I want to thank all of those who actually "PLEDGED" money and did not come to this thread to complain about the reasons why we put this pledge together.
For those that are stuck, I think it's time we face the music and consider one of two options:
Continue to Wait. (It's been 17 days since the release of OTA Froyo and no known exploit has been found)
Start looking at another device
I've decided to cut my looses and pre-order on an EPIC. It has been a pleasure being on the EVO side of the XDA forums. I wish the best of luck to everyone here and I hope one day root is achieved and that new bootloader is defeated.
Cheers
Never mind, the other thread is for an updated PRI for rooted phones.
By all means start a new thread.
I thought about starting a similar thread. Many developers have already put a lot of effort into solving this without monetary motivation. The only way I see this helping is if an HTC/Sprint person with access we don't have, helps out. The brightest minds in this community (dare I say anywhere) are already working hard on it. That, or maybe a non-Evo developer will start, but prob doubtful. Either way, $25 to support this. Save me from my stupidity/nonroot hell!
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
Since I am chronically impatient and therefore Dl'd the OTA I will throw down $10. Sorry I can't contribute more, new father here.
I can scrape together another $25 for the effort.
the price of one months tether
$30
So then are you guys planning on paying unrevoked tonight?
edufur said:
So then are you guys planning on paying unrevoked tonight?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
maybe you should go read again. you need to have a rooted phone already.
Somehow, I don't think that it's the lack of a monetary award that’s keeping the 2.2 root from happening. Normally, bounties are used for issues that nobody’s really working on, or for issues that have been worked on for some time, but are exceedingly difficult. What you’re doing here is setting a precedent where devs will be racing against each other to be first out the door with something that they’re all already working on, to win a monetary reward. I don’t know if that kind of precedent is a good idea.
2.2 root will happen, just be patient.
BTW, I’m no dev, so I can't speak for them, I'm just a member of the xda community. It just makes me a bit uncomfortable to see these kinds of threads. And that’s also not to say that the devs don’t deserve every dollar – they do! They kick ass in every way, shape and form. So maybe when they do root 2.2, send them a donation. But the reason I’ve been coming here since way back when I had the HTC Kaiser (although I only joined up when I got my Evo, I've been lurking here for years), is for the community and the people. Specifically people helping people, just to be helpful, and because they can, because they have the knowledge, and to show what can be done when the corporate locks are removed from a device so that it's capabilities are only limited to the coding skills of the dev, and the imagination of the community. Not for the money. To be frank, I think that if we keep going down this direction, we’ll all be worse off, and xda may change – and not for the better.
Just my $0.02, so take it for what it's worth.
And get off my lawn! Sorry - the above came out with a much more doom and gloom attitude than what I had intended. Didn’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade. ;-)
fachadick said:
Somehow, I don't think that it's the lack of a monetary award that’s keeping the 2.2 root from happening. Normally, bounties are used for issues that nobody’s really working on, or for issues that have been worked on for some time, but are exceedingly difficult. What you’re doing here is setting a precedent where devs will be racing against each other to be first out the door with something that they’re all already working on, to win a monetary reward. I don’t know if that kind of precedent is a good idea.
2.2 root will happen, just be patient.
BTW, I’m no dev, so I can't speak for them, I'm just a member of the xda community. It just makes me a bit uncomfortable to see these kinds of threads. And that’s also not to say that the devs don’t deserve every dollar – they do! They kick ass in every way, shape and form. So maybe when they do root 2.2, send them a donation. But the reason I’ve been coming here since way back when I had the HTC Kaiser (although I only joined up when I got my Evo, I've been lurking here for years), is for the community and the people. Specifically people helping people, just to be helpful, and because they can, because they have the knowledge, and to show what can be done when the corporate locks are removed from a device so that it's capabilities are only limited to the coding skills of the dev, and the imagination of the community. Not for the money. To be frank, I think that if we keep going down this direction, we’ll all be worse off, and xda may change – and not for the better.
Just my $0.02, so take it for what it's worth.
And get off my lawn! Sorry - the above came out with a much more doom and gloom attitude than what I had intended. Didn’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade. ;-)
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Click to collapse
*******
I totally respect your view and agree that it should not be a money race. Open source is a beautiful thing and that is what I love about this platform. Developers craft their skill and share with others because they have a passion for what they do and not because they want to make money.
Once in a while though we should honor them for what it is they do and since the release of Froyo, it saddens me to read postings from individuals who are mocking people who upgraded their phone via OTA though there were warnings about it, lets face it, Froyo is an enticing update and unfortunately some folks jumped on it. But I also believe that there are a fare amount of people here who either recently purchased the phone or was in the middle of a warranty issue that ended up with an OTA'd Froyo and because these individuals want to mock and make these assumptions, it could be perceived that the only people who are begging for a root are the ones who OTA'd by choice. Regardless on how everyone got to OTA Froyo, we are here now and are patiently waiting for a workaround.
So in the hopes of offering in incentive not only to the fine work of developers here at XDA, but to help those of us who are stuck in limbo, I started this pledge to help get this initiative going.
fachadick said:
Somehow, I don't think that it's the lack of a monetary award that’s keeping the 2.2 root from happening. ~snip~ Didn’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade. ;-)
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Click to collapse
Agreed, so consider my contribution a donation to whoever roots this beast.
You can put me down for $20.00. Im in a slightly different boat than everyone else. My phone already had 2.2 on it when I picked it up. I dont know if it was that way out of the box or if one of the nice Sprint employees was kind enough to upgrade it for me. I paid for the phone/service when the store opened but didnt come back for the phone until after lunch because they needed to port the number, paperwork, etc and I didnt have time to wait.
That being said, I bought a bunch of software for my N1 which is now useless as I dont have root and Id really like to have that stuff back working again.
it's unfortunate that an open-source community, where devs work with free software, needs to resort to money to motivate people. i understand that there are devs out there who will do this for free because they enjoy doing it for free (so not all devs need money for motivation), but lets be real. you're promoting an environment where open source also means "but not for free".
there's no doubt that there are very very very talented devs here and maybe they do deserve some money. but what happens when they start thinking, "hmmm, if people are willing to pay just for root, I wonder what they'll pay for my services?"
cnstarz said:
you're promoting an environment where open source also means "but not for free".[/I]"
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Open Source doesn't mean the devs are working for free. If they want to sell their services then only those willing to pay shall receive such services. It is totally up to the devs.
jedwardmiller said:
Open Source doesn't mean the devs are working for free. If they want to sell their services then only those willing to pay shall receive such services. It is totally up to the devs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
Also, just because people are offering a bounty, doesn't mean that's why the devs are doing it. Like I said before, bounty or no bounty, someone will find a way to root froyo, and when that happens, I doubt that they'll have done it for the money.
Sent from my blah blah blah blah
bump..................................
Ok much better...
Should a developer decide that they don't want the money for their work, then what ever funds we have collected here, we'll donate it to the XDA forum paypal account to keep to site running. In either case the money will go to a good cause.
There needs to be a deadline tho. If not..it means it can be a year from now and still collect. I'd say by next Friday. A simple root will do, we can hold off for nand unlock. Atleast with simple root we can still tether which is what we mostly want.
Put me down for $20! I'm a newb with all this. Came over from the jailbreak world just last week. Can someone give me a heads up on how I donate the money once the root is released? Do these devs usually have pay pal donation function on there sites?
sent from my evo
Hey guys (mostly the senior/mod/admin folks, but anyone feel free to chime in). Could XDA implement vBulletin's (I think there is an official plugin/option... I may be wrong about this though; I cannot say for sure since I am not an admin on any site that uses vBulletin, $user = phpbbWhore reputation system? If it's not built into the latest version of the code, I'm sure there is a 3rd party plugin available from VBulletin's official site (I know of at least a few of those that exist and would help if needed).
My thought behind this is that sometimes someone posts some really useful information and adding a reply that says something like "+1 thanks!" almost seems like a waste of a post to me (I really dislike "filler"/OT threads, but I still want to give the person credit). However if I was able to give a person a point (+) or if someone was just being a jerk for no reason (-), I think more people would take the time to think before they posted. Plus, since we know "post count" mean nothing in terms of someone being a helpful person or not, this would allow new users to spot trustworthy/reliable folks.
My only qualm is that I don't know if XDA as a whole is mature enough to use this kind of system responsibly, but I have faith that any real abusers could be weeded out fairly quickly. I think it would be cool to at least trial run this. Thanks for your time .
Hi DeeBG,
Yeah, it's good idea generally, thou i'd prolly advocate XDA going a step further right off the bat, and implementing a point trading system as a supplement to the donate buttons, especially for those without easy access to paypal credit.
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
Cheers.
Reputation is built into vB, looks like they opted to turn it off. Good thing, every forum I've been a part of / admin'd, it's been abused.
I7redd said:
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it? So your reputation cannot get worse, but only better.
I7redd said:
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
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Click to collapse
It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.
Well there are really two types of systems. One is where you can give a thumbs up or thumbs down on a comment (sometimes represented by a [+] or [-] sign), and then there is the "Thanks" system, as seen on such sites as http://androidforums.com.
I agree that the first system can and sadly usually is abused (I think I saw it work well on one private torrent site I used to belong to a long time ago). There is a somewhat "pack mentality" that some users can fall into, whether someone is "outed" (falsely or not) for being an abuser of the forums or sometimes members are found "guilty by association".
I would like to see at least a "Thanks" system in place, again the folks at androidforums.com (which I'm sure at least some of you are also members at or at least have been directed to a post there before) have this successfully working within their vBulletin-powered site and would happy to help XDA admins if needed (not that I don't have faith in the XDA site owners/coders, you guys are pretty awesome yourselves =p). Of course I would be happy to lend my ~10 years of PHP/MySQL/etc experience to the process if it'd help.
I would start a public poll, but I think it's really in the interests of the site owners (also they can probably setup a more wide-spread poll than I can if they want public opinion).
Your friend in code,
DeeBG =)
I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)
Captainkrtek said:
I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, that's why I think a system where you can ONLY give thanks would be cool. Again, forum admins, let me know if you need any assistance getting it up and working (it shouldn't add a performance performance hit to the backend database/system... the php code would be very light and the mysql db would maybe grow a few hundred kB since users without thanks wouldn't have any data).
Developer Bidding...
Livven said:
The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Still open to cheating using multiple accounts to "Thank" themselves here and there and everywhere.
It's perhaps harder to gain anything with requests from yourself, and gifting points to yourself, while offering up public solutions. Thou i wouldn't put it past someone to try.
It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm... There seems to be a growing trend on XDA towards "donation requests" or "developer bidding" in certain forums. (see Xperia x10 Froyo request topic for example).
It involves people collectively posting that they will each donate a small amount to their favorite cause. (Android on Samsung Wave being another good example)
The current running tallies of offered donations is also interesting idea, thou there is some concern that those who have offered to donate $10 or $20 dollars will actually do so once the developers have done their magic.
Again, the opaque or arbitrary nature of hidden donations is a problem here.
Without going as far as escrow payments system (for requests that could likely need time limits and a refund), a basic "pre-paid" point system should work pretty well. For instance, once a task is completed the points could then be traded back for paypal dollars, completing the "circle of trust".
Any other ideas on this?
(or is there already an active "services" marketplace here somewhere that i've perhaps overlooked?)
I posted a question on the Modaco forum, but it was a complete waste of time as nobody replied!
I'd like to know if anyone has used the online kitchen on the Modaco website and if it is worth paying the 10USD to cook you own rom with the ingredients you'd like to have.
In other words. Pros and cons?
Thanks for any help
Astro
Moved to Q&A as not development.
you can see what the kitchen offers without paying, try mcr and if you like the rom and want the additions pay for it....
I was using the R8 ROM, I'd say it was well worth it. It's as close to stock as you can get, looks-wise. And the kitchen comes with a few nice little features you can have cooked in.
astrovale said:
I posted a question on the Modaco forum, but it was a complete waste of time as nobody replied!
I'd like to know if anyone has used the online kitchen on the Modaco website and if it is worth paying the 10USD to cook you own rom with the ingredients you'd like to have.
In other words. Pros and cons?
Thanks for any help
Astro
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm no cook, so what I tend to do is find a ROM someone else has been good enough to create and share and simply add/remove the app files I want/don't want. It's really quite easy, and you can pretty much customise everything by swapping and changing the programs......
Having said that tho, a $10 donation to Paul at MoDaCo is worthy for all of the work he has done in the past on our devices.
Thank you all guys for the advice.
@cr1960: you're correct: 10USD is a little price to pay for all the work done!
Astro
$10 is alot to pay for something when similar things are available for free.
Lots of other people do more work that 'paul' and don't ask for a fee.
And its not a donation. Its a fee disguised as a donation.
£10 for a year is a bargain in my book, although I do what cr1960 does and get a ROM and tweak it to my liking...
EddyOS said:
£10 for a year is a bargain in my book, although I do what cr1960 does and get a ROM and tweak it to my liking...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd love to be able to do the same, but I don't have the skills required, so I must rely on the kindness of strangers
Joking apart, I wish I could find a way to cook my own rom just adding the ingredients I think are necessary and some of the simply pleasant ones, but all the "kitchens" I've found where either too difficult for me to use, or required knowledge of Linux, or were simply not working
Ciao all
Astro
I would definately pay if I knew there was some kind of commitment from Paul. As it is now it's a one man show and if Paul decides that the new HTC devices are more interesting there might not be any future updates. I say "might" since I don't know, but I would like to know that the new Sense and future updates will be included in the kitchen (at least one year from the Desire release date).
astrovale said:
I'd love to be able to do the same, but I don't have the skills required, so I must rely on the kindness of strangers
Joking apart, I wish I could find a way to cook my own rom just adding the ingredients I think are necessary and some of the simply pleasant ones, but all the "kitchens" I've found where either too difficult for me to use, or required knowledge of Linux, or were simply not working
Ciao all
Astro
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't need a kitchen, just unzip the ROM and remove the APKs you don't want from the /system/app folder and add ones you do to the same folder (or /data/app if you want them to be removable in future). I do this all the time to remove a load of widgets I don't use and to add my 'normal' apps.
Then just rezip the ROM and either sign it using the signing package on here (somewhere) or flash it with signature checking turned off in your custom recovery
mercianary said:
$10 is alot to pay for something when similar things are available for free.
Lots of other people do more work that 'paul' and don't ask for a fee.
And its not a donation. Its a fee disguised as a donation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fine then don't pay - that's your choice!
However, no one ever said it was a donation. It is a fee to get ad-free access to the MoDaCo website, and one of the benefits of that is to gain access to the MoDaCo kitchens.
My local pub has a sign up that says that their toilets are for customer use only - does that mean I'm paying to use them?
Just because you get a perk when you pay for something else doesn't mean you are paying for that perk!
As to the amount of work that Paul does, I think that speaks for itself! Paul is pretty much at the forefront of the rooting effort for almost all new HTC Android devices!
Regards,
Dave
I stand corrected, haven't looked at mocaco for a long time. It says support not donate.
But I still don't like it. No one pays the fee to get rid of the ads, people pay the fee to get access to the kitchen. It would be like going to your pub and paying to use the toilet and getting a free beer.
I don't believe 'paul' is a real person, I believe that 'paul' is a group of people working for modaco for the soul purpose of getting people to support the site. People are more likely to donate, sorry, support a person who most idolize rather than a support faceless business.
Its just the impression I got when I was looking through the site when I first rooted my phone. I don't believe any 1 person can be that helpfull with that many devices, Paul must spend all day everyday working on these phones (working being the operative word here,ie a job), and they aren't exactly cheap (support).
My point is I'd rather be in a community where people do work on these devices because its what they love, not as a means to line their own pockets.
I'm not accusing anyone of anything here, its just my oppinion, a conspiracy theory, I have no proof of any of this.
Seeing as he's not updated the Desire forum in weeks would suggest he is hard at work on other projects - and he goes to press releases and probably gets phones free as demo units
I just thought I'd start this thread to ask other developers about their opinion on the matter.
I spent many hours across several weeks reverse engineering the Samsung Galaxy S flashing protocol and then programming, testing and distributing Heimdall as open-source software.
Based on bandwidth consumption Heimdall has been downloaded anywhere between 2000 and 8000 times (depending on whether the source or binaries were downloaded). I have received no more than eight donations, a very sincere thank-you goes out to those eight people! Let's assume that 25% of the total number of downloads were repeat downloaders, so we have somewhere between 1500 and 6000 unique users. So only 0.134-0.534% of users actually donate. Those sorts of donation rates are barely able to cover the cost of bandwidth, if at all.
I know there are a lot of people out there who consider themselves avid supporters of open-source and open-source software. I wouldn't necessarily call myself one of those people, however I do believe there is definitely a time and a place for open-source software, Heimdall being a perfect example.
I also know a lot of people who distribute ROMs, apps, tools, mods etc. are hobbyists who do what they do in their spare time, and the community should be very thankful of that. As for myself, I work as a independent software/games developer, not particularly the most monetarily rewarding profession around.
As much as we do enjoy releasing free software for the community, it is difficult for developers such as myself to justify the work involved when there is little to no return, after all the bills need to be paid somehow.
My question is this, is it possible for developers releasing open-source software directly to the community, not large corporations, to make a living off their work? Furthermore, how do we encourage community members to give back to developers who have donated their time to the community?
Can't you use Google Code instead for hosting? or SourceForge? all provide free bandwidth IIRC.
Don't expect any donations as a rule, if you are expecting profit then either use ads on your website or charge.
I would have thought the primary reason for developing OSS on your phone is to improve the product you originally bought.
Cheers,
MiG
If you want free hosting, I can hook you up at http://www.sgscompilebox.dreamhosters.com/ that I'm paying for anyway for z4mod. Unlimited bandwidth/space. Offer goes out to anybody who wants to host anything for the SGS.
EDIT: Oh, and to answer your question: No, I don't believe it's possible to make a living off making 3rd party open source tools that only a fraction(technical users) of a device's users will use. If you want to make a living off open source, the best bet is through a company such as Canonical, or by creating applications focused at casual users with as much potential marketshare as possible. Or do what most people do: get a regular 'closed' job, and do open source stuff as a hobby.
MiG- said:
Can't you use Google Code instead for hosting? or SourceForge? all provide free bandwidth IIRC.
Don't expect any donations as a rule, if you are expecting profit then either use ads on your website or charge.
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I don't think you fully understand what I'm trying to discuss. The bandwidth costs are fairly negligible, especially if I'm approximately able to cover the costs with just eight donations. A developers time however is substantially more expensive, and in some ways the effort and intention is priceless
I'm not expecting profit as such, nor do I particularly wish this discussion to center around myself (I'm just using my statistics as an example). I'm just curious to know whether people think it is possible to be a "sustainable" open-source developer who contributes software directly to a community? As opposed to large open-source products targeted towards large corporations who pay technical support contracts.
I'm also not a big fan off stuffing ads down the throat of my user-base. Also, in this particular context I seriously doubt that sort of approach would work, especially if third-party free hosting (sourceforge, github etc.) is used.
MiG- said:
I would have thought the primary reason for developing OSS on your phone is to improve the product you originally bought.
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Not necessarily. In my particular case I've simply released a tool to further enable the community to do something that other users (myself included) could already do, in some capacity or another.
For most developers releasing open-source software isn't so much about improving something they own. It's more about providing something for a community to use and benefit from without constraints. It's not unreasonable to ask the community to support you in return. After all there is nothing that forces developers to ever release the software they develop, unless you've used GPL code which is another matter entirely.
MiG-, based on your answer I'm assuming you're saying, no you do not think it's possible, which is definitely a perfectly valid answer to questions I've asked. Although I would definitely love to hear what more community members, particularly developers, have to say about the topic.
RyanZA said:
If you want free hosting, I can hook you up at http://www.sgscompilebox.dreamhosters.com/ that I'm paying for anyway for z4mod. Unlimited bandwidth/space. Offer goes out to anybody who wants to host anything for the SGS.
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Bit of topic.. you can host roms?
DocRambone said:
Bit of topic.. you can host roms?
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Until someone stops me, sure.
RyanZA said:
EDIT: Oh, and to answer your question: No, I don't believe it's possible to make a living off making 3rd party open source tools that only a fraction(technical users) of a device's users will use. If you want to make a living off open source, the best bet is through a company such as Canonical, or by creating applications focused at casual users with as much potential marketshare as possible. Or do what most people do: get a regular 'closed' job, and do open source stuff as a hobby.
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I agree with pretty much everything except the part about targeting casual users in order to make money. In my experience technically inclined users, who have an appreciation for a piece of software, are substantially more likely to donate that casual users who lack the knowledge of the work involved. Of course selling software is something that can be more easily achieved when targeting a casual user base, especially if they know nothing of piracy. However it is generally not possible to sell "open-source" software directly.
Benjamin Dobell said:
I agree with pretty much everything except the part about targeting casual users in order to make money. In my experience technically inclined users, who have an appreciation for a piece of software, are substantially more likely to donate that casual users who lack the knowledge of the work involved. Of course selling software is something that can be more easily achieved when targeting a casual user base, especially if they know nothing of piracy. However it is generally not possible to sell "open-source" software directly.
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Of course it is. Why do you think all of these app stores and market place etc is all catching on? You're never going to get rich off it, but putting up a popular open source application with an advert (and the option to turn it off even) should be able to bring in a pretty good revenue! Social networking seems to do the best for these types of apps.
Also, you'd probably want to diversify if relying on ad money - one banner ad in 25 open source apps, with 100K users each could easily reach a lot of money. And it should be possible to crank out a simple, well made open source app that serves a definite purpose in under 3 months. So with some time investment, in a couple years you'd be able to live off it. No different from closed sourced apps when you you use advertising.
Most important thing though is to make something that
1) the average user understands what it does
2) does the job as simply as possible
3) actually helps the user
4) has as wide a potential market as possible
You could look at firefox as the ultimate in this type of thing.
This is all a lot of work though, I'm sure, and if you're after money, a regular desk job is almost guaranteed to work out better.
RyanZA said:
Of course it is. Why do you think all of these app stores and market place etc is all catching on? You're never going to get rich off it, but putting up a popular open source application with an advert (and the option to turn it off even) should be able to bring in a pretty good revenue! Social networking seems to do the best for these types of apps.
Also, you'd probably want to diversify if relying on ad money - one banner ad in 25 open source apps, with 100K users each could easily reach a lot of money. And it should be possible to crank out a simple, well made open source app that serves a definite purpose in under 3 months. So with some time investment, in a couple years you'd be able to live off it. No different from closed sourced apps when you you use advertising.
Most important thing though is to make something that
1) the average user understands what it does
2) does the job as simply as possible
3) actually helps the user
4) has as wide a potential market as possible
You could look at firefox as the ultimate in this type of thing.
This is all a lot of work though, I'm sure, and if you're after money, a regular desk job is almost guaranteed to work out better.
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Agreed, I mostly meant that it's difficult to "sell" open-source software. If your software is truly open-source then users are likely to download it, compile it and then redistribute it for free, which is sort of reasonable given that it's meant to be open source.
However advertising in a free application is slightly different than selling an application and it does have a lot more potential to succeed. However depending on what you mean by "putting up a popular open source application" I might have moral issues with that. Unless the popular application is your own or you've substantially modified (added a UI etc) to an existing piece of open-source software. Although a lot less likely to happen if your app is free, if it is open-source there is still the chance someone else will distribute it for free, unless of course the non-code assets aren't open.
I definitely do believe that at the moment it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to live off the type of open-source software I initially described. It's a bit saddening though to realise how massively one falls short, hopefully this will change in the future.
About those donations. If I would use it, I would probably donate.
I worked my a** of for the community, providing ROMs and kitchens for 3 years for the HTC S710 and S740 and I got about 4 or 5 donations over that period of time. Sometimes it get's very frustrating, but hang in there, it's worth it after all (there would be no WM 6.5 on the Vox or the Rose without me (dare I say that ), but I wanted it anyway, so I made it and just released it for others as well)!
PS: SAP r3 is open source and it sells veeeeeery good
I think the community can recognize such invaluable work & devote a part of their donations to them, if they are using his software & really think its worth.
I think however small percentage it could be, it would make the developer feel wanted & make him continue devoting his valuable time.
I just read an article either today or yesterday regarding a conference of software developers for android community, & when one developer went to the podium & said he is earning a steady $1-$2 per day, people actually laughed. He retorted, THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD. Android hasn't penetrated the markets YET like iPhone. So awareness & earnings are still low.
BTW, a nice GUI would change everything.
Just my 2 cents worth.
PS : In continuation to RyanZA's talk, I would like to mention that if you think you have something worth using, MAKE A LOT of noise about it. THAT's how people notice, use & donate. No one can understand a software's worth until you tell them. Like some WWii prime minister said, if you want the world to understand what you are telling, tell it like you are telling a donkey.
Ben, I think you need to differentiate between recognition, fame & money. Ideas are many have you tried http://www.ideaken.com/ ?
Benjamin Dobell said:
Agreed, I mostly meant that it's difficult to "sell" open-source software. If your software is truly open-source then users are likely to download it, compile it and then redistribute it for free, which is sort of reasonable given that it's meant to be open source.
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Most companies "built on open-source" provide binaries, and real support for those binaries, and earn a living from that. In an enterprise environment giving support can earn a lot of money (mainly because a lot of companies have policies to only use software/hardware that has decent support). On my last job we had to use a really crappy software, just because the (really) good alternative didn't had a support center in our country.
For the casual users: the marketplaces + ads are a good place to start. If you manage to create something that casual users will use, then it might pay of. Those users don't actaully care about the software being FOSS or not. Actually there aren't many people who care how free an application really is (except for most people working in IT or similar)
If bandwidth is an issue then host it over megaupload and such, problem solved.
ragin said:
BTW, a nice GUI would change everything.
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And give users the ability to think they are actually a power user. Most people here at xda can't write even simple scripts, but they do want to try out new and experimental stuff. (on the other hand there are a lot of users who want things that just work, for them give a simple gui saying: "DO DA STUFF")
EarlZ said:
If bandwidth is an issue then host it over megaupload and such, problem solved.
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I hate when people upload source code to megaupload. There's github, code.google.com and sf.net. sf.net is although quite old now, the other too are still great when it comes to hosting FOSS stuff.
Github is even nicer since they've added a big "Download" button for the end users.